55.2-59 New versus old safety

[FAKKY]

Found this today
Quite and amazing video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_r5UJrxcck

[nvrdone]

so what are you saying? that our classic cars and trucks aren't safe? so was riding a bike with out a helmet or many other things we did when young and we lived thru it. We just need to make our classics as safe as possible and drive in a very defensive manor.

[MiraclePieCo]

My dad died in an AD pickup crash. But his was a '54 and mine is a '51, so I think I'm okay.

[FAKKY]

Originally Posted by nvrdone

so what are you saying? that our classic cars and trucks aren't safe? so was riding a bike with out a helmet or many other things we did when young and we lived thru it. We just need to make our classics as safe as possible and drive in a very defensive manor.

Already said it

"Quite and amazing video"

[1project2many]

I'm not going to debate that today's cars are safer. I do feel like GM cheated by choosing that vehicle for the test. Many full size '57 to '64 GM cars were built on an X frame. For coupes and sedans Chevrolet opted for an open X rather than a boxed X which meant the rockers were required to provide strength that was missing in the frame.

[G&R's57GMC]

The above Chassis pic. was GM's way of getting the longer , lower , wider look by lowering the floor pan they could lower the roof line .
Remember hats were on the way out of fashion by '55 .

So the Longer Lower Wider was the latest Fashion in the auto industry .

It was all about Style .
Safety wasn't mentioned outside of Corporate offices closed doors
.
Remember how the Big 3 went after Tucker .

Only Ford gave it a nod in '56 with the deep dish steering wheel as standard . Also padded dash and seat belts as an Option.

Chrysler introduced the safety bead wheel . I think in the late 50's early 60's . It took years for others to follow .

Meanwhile Volvo developed 3 point safety belts in the 50's .

So do what ever you can to improve safety in you Classics after all it's you and yours life's that are at stake .

[1project2many]

It was all about Style . Safety wasn't mentioned outside of Corporate offices closed doors

In the video, watch how the A pillar crumples. This is important on TF trucks. Scary, and not much that can be done to prevent it. Also important but not shown is how the hood can be driven into the cab, breaking off the hinge and slicing away at anything in the path. The solution was to put crumple zones in the hood supports and pins in the back of the hood. AD and TF cab attaching fasteners are strong but rusty metal, and / or poor repairs can cause separation so I'd consider a safety cable at the cab mount. Solid OE steering column attached to frame can become Vlad the Impaler if frame folds up or if driver slams forward. That huge, old wheel keeps the chest from hitting the column as easily. Splitting the column and installing a collapsing lower half could allow upper half to be moved by your torso in a crash. Frame is a pair of solid and relatively straight rails for AD and TF trucks. With thinking, a person could create a series of V cuts in a C channel frame to create areas of deflection so some energy from head on collision is absorbed and direction of motion of vehicle is changed. Replacing stock rails with boxes makes frame stronger but also does little to reduce energy transferred in an impact. A series of V cuts placed along corners of the boxed rails can help. Doors are too close to driver to do anything other than transfer impact. Supporting steel inside the door can help deflect side impact crash energy away from driver or passenger and into cab. Of course the door to frame area was never intended to remain intact in a crash so give attention to how to keep the door from pushing into the cab. Door post style latches were designed so door would stay latched even if length of door decreased during side impact. OE technology in 47-59 was not built for this crash.

Lots of other thoughts and ideas out there... maybe this is a good thread to collect a few?

[MiraclePieCo]

If we all wanted safety, this would be a Subaru forum.

[mr48chev]

Originally Posted by MiraclePieCo

If we all wanted safety, this would be a Subaru forum.

True there, The newer ones do protect the passengers if they are strapped down in the seat.

I was amazed with my 92 GEO Prizm GSI when the garbage truck slammed into me when I was sitting in traffic and shoved me into a Johnson barrier. He hit me so hard that it broke the seat and probably would have broken my neck except for the head rest. Then I hit the barrier that he shoved me into and that impact threw me forward and I hit the shoulder belt so hard that I carried a bruise for two months but didn't hit the windshield or steering wheel.

I opened the drivers door and got out. State patrol came the two blocks from their office and the officer asked if the car would move, It fired up and drove 200 yards to a park and ride parking lot. All four doors would open and close without effort, The state patrolman was amazed that the doors weren't jammed. I flat towed it home with my dualie and a tow bar the next day and it still will run and drive to move it around the yard. I want to use the engine in a little sports car.

The newer rigs have built in fold points in the frame or Uni body structure so they absorb a lot of the impact that old rigs didn't have.

More guys driving pre 1968 rigs got killed by the steering column than anything else though. That solid steel shaft from the steering box to the wheel doesn't give any when your chest hits it and I was at one wreck where the driver of a 65 Mustang was impaled on the steering shaft when he hit a VW bug head on killing him and the guy in the bug. Fog so thick you couldn't see 50 ft ahead with your headlights that night and he was going pretty fast when he hit the bug.

On the other hand I saw the rig one of my wife's coworkers got thrown out of and killed because she didn't have a seat belt on when she rolled it after spinning out on black ice and you could have driven that one away after rolling it back on it's wheels. If she had had the belt on she would have walked away with probably a few bruises.

[dsraven]

I am a professional firefighter and a licensed mechanic. I spent years operating the rescue truck and cutting away car parts to extricate victims with the "jaws of life". I have seen pretty well every bone and internal body part in a human body, outside the human body, at accident scenes. it is amazing what the forces of impact can do. from working on cars, trucks and equipment I have also seen how stuff bolts together and is assembled to work as an assembly and how manufacturers have changed designs over the years with regards to safety. I have also seen some pretty scary home fixes that had been driving around on the same roads as our family and loved ones. while "back in the day" we would arrive on an accident scene and find people pinned or possibly thrown out of vehicles (or worse), nowadays often we find the occupants outside the cars exchanging insurance information after a similar impact crash. I am not saying to go overboard and build intricate roll cages with 5 point harnesses, but I would keep the safety aspect in mind when building your ride. this is also coming from a guy whose buddies home made seat belt mounts failed in a roll over and I was thrown out of the vehicle allowing that same vehicle to roll over me. lucky to be here today actually. lets think about things like mentioned previously in the posts above. there are upgrades for safety that could easily be accomplished for minimal dollars and could make a big difference in a crash. think about the steering columns that become spears in crashes, seat belts and where to install them and how much reinforcement and fasteners are needed, having head rests on seats for whip lash reasons, having no bumpers or hidden bumper bars, insufficient brakes that don't match the power output and performance level of the rest of the build, insufficient or "shaved" lighting to help others see you from all angles, suspensions that have been borrowed from vehicles with way different track widths than what is needed and then modified to fit, effects of wheel spacers, huge offset front wheels or different control arms to get the right look or accommodate a preferred tire size, effects of huge C notches on frame integrity, rusted out key structural areas patched with a new "skin" where there used to be several layers of structure before. we have all seen something done a little sketchy and, I get it, it's the owners choice. all I am saying is do a little research and thought on the effects of a crash on the occupants. lots of times there is another, safer, way to get the job done. we have all seen builds where there have been significant compromises in suspension and steering to get the truck "in the weeds". not much thought for any steering geometry changes like toe in changes during suspension travel, caster and camber changes, scrub angles, steering axis inclination, bump steer, anti dive angles etc. I think we need to be as diligent as we can be, within reason. heck, these days you need to be a certified, qualified electrician just to change the cord end on an extension cord at work. it's all liabilities these days. I'm not saying stop everything and sell your build for parts, just saying to think, then build the best we can with safety in mind. lets not scrimp on the safety items so we can get on the road or afford some flashy trinket. lets build from the foundation up as safely and correctly as possible. research and ask questions. like FAKKY is doing here.

while we are talking about modifications and dollars spent, lets think about getting appraisals and insurance for what we are running. I have seen guys with big dollar builds get paid out for the year and model of a stock vehicle (when it is stolen) just because they only insured for a stock vehicle. take some pics and keep a file. also, performance mods not mentioned to the insurance company could void your insurance coverage.

ok, end of rant. not intended to point fingers at anybody. just intended to make us think about what we're doing. just because somebody else did it doesn't make it right. lets not trade safety for aesthetics or speed of the build.

[mr48chev]

Well put Dsraven.

Top quality seat belts that are properly installed and a collapsible steering column are two things that need to be installed in any modified truck.

I was at a local rat rod show a year or two ago and some guy had a sharpened spike sticking out of the center of his steering wheel. Long enough that it would go through and past a person's backbone in a crash. True the car was not licensed and trailered to and from the event as most rat rods around here are but I can see some fool high school kid putting a spike in the middle of his steering wheel on his Honda Civic and getting it run through him in a minor accident because he thought it was cool .

Build as safe as you can, then teach yourself to be a defensive driver who pays attention to what is going on around you and as far ahead of you as you can see.

I don't think guys need to get paranoid though. Just think the mods out and study them a bit to make sure that you aren't building in a safety issue.

[dsraven]

mr48, thats what I' talking about. think it through before you build. it's partly why quality shops actually have a plan and concept drawings.
as a side bar on the defensive driving thing, drive a motorcycle in the city for a bit, you will be waaaaay more aware of what's happening around you, whose brake lights are on 5 cars ahead, who is waiting in the turn lane in oncoming traffic, whether or not the guy directly in front of you is driving or texting, eating breakfast with both hands, putting her make up on, shaving, reading a full size paper map, digging for something in her purse, yelling at the kids in the back seat while turned fully around, etc. I could go on. seen all of those though. prolly guilty of a few myself, ok, not the make up or purse parts, haha.

[Steeveedee]

I joke about putting on sections of railroad track for front and back bumpers. Heavy, but I don't drive that far in my truck unless I'm towing the travel trailer, and I don't think that they would hurt the mileage much.

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by MiraclePieCo

If we all wanted safety, this would be a Subaru forum.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL Yep, I drove this Rambler every single day for 8 years. I drove it like I would ride a motorcycle, it's that simply you have to think a little different.

Brian

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

Well put Dsraven.

Top quality seat belts that are properly installed and a collapsible steering column are two things that need to be installed in any modified truck.

I was at a local rat rod show a year or two ago and some guy had a sharpened spike sticking out of the center of his steering wheel. Long enough that it would go through and past a person's backbone in a crash. True the car was not licensed and trailered to and from the event as most rat rods around here are but I can see some fool high school kid putting a spike in the middle of his steering wheel on his Honda Civic and getting it run through him in a minor accident because he thought it was cool .

Build as safe as you can, then teach yourself to be a defensive driver who pays attention to what is going on around you and as far ahead of you as you can see.

I don't think guys need to get paranoid though. Just think the mods out and study them a bit to make sure that you aren't building in a safety issue.

I am in the collision industry, I think it's way more about driving than anything. And yes the modern car is MUCH safer if you do get in an accident but damn it sure seems like most every car I see at work had a driver doing something stupid.

Brian

[1project2many]

Wow. This has become pretty well charged up. I was only hoping this thread could be a source for ideas on how to make a build safer for those who want to do it.

I manage a fleet of vehicles that carries passengers. As a group, drivers in this industry are some of the safest out there. Our drivers tend to be above average for the industry so they're pretty safe. But we still have accidents involving other drivers doing stupid things.

Anyone who has Hagerty Insurance gets low rates because Hagerty has shown that as a group people with classic vehicles are more likely to take care of their vehicles and are less likely to get in accidents. They have proven we are generally safer than the average driver and we are profitable to insure. Still, Hagerty does publish stories regularly about losses that include accidents while the vehicle is on the road being driven. Many involve the other driver being at fault.

It is, imo, impossible to rule out accidents just because we care about our vehicles and because we are more alert and more cautious drivers. 90% of American drivers believe they are better drivers than 90% of American drivers. But the math doesn't work. Never understimate the power of stupid people in large numbers carrying highly distracting devices to ruin your day.

I live in New Hampshire by choice. Among other unique or uncommon freedoms, I think this is the only state that does not require seat belts. I moved here from Montana. When I lived there it was the only state that let the driver choose their own maximum safe speed on the highway. I believe in the right to make choices about safety, providing we aren't endangering someone else, and the right to suffer the consequences if we choose incorrectly. Some of us learn good lessons the hard way.

At some point it might be nice to create a thread of safety improvements and ideas for folks looking to improve the old trucks. There's really very little out there to help if you want to install seat belts safely, or to improve braking without making a vehicle unsafe. We have paint threads, wheel threads, stance threads, engine choice threads, even a thread about using vinyl decals instead of real emblems. Why not safety improvements?

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by 1project2many

Wow. This has become pretty well charged up. I was only hoping this thread could be a source for ideas on how to make a build safer for those who want to do it.

I manage a fleet of vehicles that carries passengers. As a group, drivers in this industry are some of the safest out there. Our drivers tend to be above average for the industry so they're pretty safe. But we still have accidents involving other drivers doing stupid things.

Anyone who has Hagerty Insurance gets low rates because Hagerty has shown that as a group people with classic vehicles are more likely to take care of their vehicles and are less likely to get in accidents. They have proven we are generally safer than the average driver and we are profitable to insure. Still, Hagerty does publish stories regularly about losses that include accidents while the vehicle is on the road being driven. Many involve the other driver being at fault.

It is, imo, impossible to rule out accidents just because we care about our vehicles and because we are more alert and more cautious drivers. 90% of American drivers believe they are better drivers than 90% of American drivers. But the math doesn't work. Never understimate the power of stupid people in large numbers carrying highly distracting devices to ruin your day.

I live in New Hampshire by choice. Among other unique or uncommon freedoms, I think this is the only state that does not require seat belts. I moved here from Montana. When I lived there it was the only state that let the driver choose their own maximum safe speed on the highway. I believe in the right to make choices about safety, providing we aren't endangering someone else, and the right to suffer the consequences if we choose incorrectly. Some of us learn good lessons the hard way.

At some point it might be nice to create a thread of safety improvements and ideas for folks looking to improve the old trucks. There's really very little out there to help if you want to install seat belts safely, or to improve braking without making a vehicle unsafe. We have paint threads, wheel threads, stance threads, engine choice threads, even a thread about using vinyl decals instead of real emblems. Why not safety improvements?

That would be very good, if you post one just put it in the title, "Safety Mods for our trucks only" something like that and it will knock out some of the opinions but opinions can be very good too. Gives people some ideas on what they want to do.

Info is info on a subject.

Brian

[Rickysnickers]

"At some point it might be nice to create a thread of safety improvements and ideas for folks looking to improve the old trucks. There's really very little out there to help if you want to install seat belts safely, or to improve braking without making a vehicle unsafe. We have paint threads, wheel threads, stance threads, engine choice threads, even a thread about using vinyl decals instead of real emblems. Why not safety improvements?"

This, my friend, is an excellent idea!!! Who wants to start it? If we do, like Brian says, it will provide more ideas for all of us.

[MARTINSR]

And honestly, the way you drive is a BIGGIE! I am not talking my "opinion" I am talking about something I studied. I am not kidding, studied like a student in school. And this was when I was driving a hot rod late model Ford Taurus SHO with all the safety stuff and 4 wheel disc abs brakes and all that. I did studies measuring how long it took me to get to work going fast over the speed limit and pushing stop lights and stuff vs "hypermiling" for fuel economy going under the speed limit and leaving WAY more room between me and the car in front so I wouldn't have to step on the brake or gas coasting a lot more and that sort of thing. I didn't do this a day or two, I did it for months, noting the numbers and calculating the average times. It PROVED to me that driving aggressive doesn't get you there any faster, and costs you a bunch of fuel doing it! I studied how many stop lights I had to stop at and how long that stop was, (we think its WAY longer than it is) how leaving a bunch of room on the freeway between you and the car in front costs you close to ZERO time when people pull into that space, stuff like that. I tossed my "opinion" about these subjects out the door with these studies.

And driving a vintage car with drum brakes and all that is going to be much safer if you drive it leaving that room and not pushing lights to be hit by someone pushing the light in the other direction. It blows my mind how it changed how I drive.

So this IS a factor in the safety of driving a vintage car or truck.

We just have to have our eyes and ears open for other ideas, not just how to install a seat belt.

Brian

[_Ogre]

there is no way to make this era truck safe, only to drive it as safely as you can
no crumple zones, steel dash, ladder frame, no door impact resistance and S shaped A pillars
i rolled my 1st 58 over back when in 1975, it had a suicide knob that probably directly caused the roll over
both doors flew open, causing the roof to come down and i got soaked in gas as i was half in the door frame
i'm still paying for that little escapade

[dsraven]

ok, safety thread starter.

pick of AD and TF trucks
next line
pic of 2020 chevy truck
caption:
for safety:
jack up the rad cap and slide this this under.
haha.
but really, we know they weren't made for safety but they also weren't made to do the speeds we think of as normal, or even slow, so lets think about how we build stuff and do so as safely as we can. a good idea is to build the base (frame and suspension) to handle a big power/speed.

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by _Ogre

there is no way to make this era truck safe, only to drive it as safely as you can
no crumple zones, steel dash, ladder frame, no door impact resistance and S shaped A pillars
i rolled my 1st 58 over back when in 1975, it had a suicide knob that probably directly caused the roll over
both doors flew open, causing the roof to come down and i got soaked in gas as i was half in the door frame
i'm still paying for that little escapade

WOW!

Brian

[1project2many]

Originally Posted by Rickysnickers

"At some point it might be nice to create a thread of safety improvements and ideas for folks looking to improve the old trucks. There's really very little out there to help if you want to install seat belts safely, or to improve braking without making a vehicle unsafe. We have paint threads, wheel threads, stance threads, engine choice threads, even a thread about using vinyl decals instead of real emblems. Why not safety improvements?"

This, my friend, is an excellent idea!!! Who wants to start it? If we do, like Brian says, it will provide more ideas for all of us.

Thread started. Any ideas are welcome.

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=813956