my 58 apache build

[hilljob26]

i picked up this beauty for 300 bucks and well, since its my second favorite truck out there next to the 67-72 i figured why not build it i cant find a decent 67-72 for that price. first thing im gonna tackle is the suspension. what do you guys do with these to get rid of the leafs on the front. we have alot of derby cars so im thinking just take the front suspension and rearend for a 03 n newer crown vic but id love to hear what yall do. the rest will all come with time

[6DoF]

dude! nice score! i mean even my wife would have come home with that for $300!! build it cheap, get it on the road, sell for profit, buy c10.

[rant]

unless going on air i love me some leaf springs. the absolute simplicity of it all! and it's there, and worst case add a panhard bar to really tighten things up. save the leaf springs!!

[/rant]

sorry, you asked a real question

so for my truck on air i used a 78 C30 front crossmember and suspension in my build, but i know the factory 58 frame rails are too narrow and the WMS is too wide for the fenders. enough guys were narrowing the control arms by 1-2" per side, that you can actually buy pre-narrowed tube arms. i was also going to section the crossmember originally to line up with the 55 frame rails before i built what i did.

but any sectioning and messing with it changes all the geometry of everything, it's never quite the same. even buying a c10 suspension with a fabricated crossmember for the 58, they had to change the geometry. but if that modded geometry is fine for how you drive ... why wouldn't leaf springs be?

if you have access to a bunch of junk yard crown vic stuff, that seams like a great place to start. i've seen some good results with those parts.

[dsraven]

there was a guy who did a crown vic/marquis front end on his 55-59 but I can't seem to find it. he made brackets for the frame and bolted it on. it was kinda backyard/messy looking but it worked apparently. check what year crown vic you need because the track width changed somewhere in the early 2000's I think.
lots of guys weld in a camaro or nova clip. some do a mustangII cross member, some do a complete frame swap from another vehicle. you will likely want to swap out the rear axle due to the gear ratio, depending on what your purpose will be in the end. some guys use a camaro rear, some guys have used the ford 8.8 from explorer but the pumkin is offset to one side. mustang has an 8,8 that is centered. it kinda all depends on what you want for an end result. a little more info there would us help I guess. I think before you spend money on the frame you should do a frame check to see if it is square, not sagged out and check the integrity of the rivets etc. the assy manual has all the frame dimensions and you will see it is a pretty straight forward design so some have built their own frame from rect tubing with components from newer vehicles for suspension. some guys have used corvette parts for this. here is a link to a build like this with a custom frame etc but lots of others have done the same with their stock frames.
https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...d.php?t=766016
some guys will install a clip out front, then cut the frame off behind the cab and install a 4 link or some other suspension that requires a big C notch. really, by the time it is done, you are left with about 4 ft of original frame under the cab and the rest is welded together. maybe the new frame idea isn't that much of a stretch then?
on a build i have I stripped the frame completely so I had 2 rails left. sandblasted, welded the not required holes shut along their lengths, boxed it in, installed a MII front end, a 4 link out back wit an 8.8, built cross members, motor and trans mounts etc etc. then I scrapped it and went with an envoy frame, floor pan and firewall. they come with 4 wheel discs, ifs strut susp up front, rack and pinion, 4 link rear with coils or stock air bags, fuel tank etc, aluminum block LS engine, O/D trans, etc etc. it is a LOT of work though. in comparison, it is a lot of work both ways but using the stock frame is easier if your fab skills and tools are limited. on mine the truck was really rough and needed a floor, firewall, etc so I used the envoy parts. dash mounted brakes come with the firewall.
here are some links to some good info to have when figuring out your build components compared to your final intentions
here is a link talking about the same thing and it has a few dimensions
https://www.hotrodders.com/threads/5...estion.316114/
another link talking about swaps
https://www.trifive.com/threads/crow...nt-end.108328/

you are gonna want to download this for future reference. it has original frame and body
dimensions as well as where spot welds are, how things fit together etc etc
https://www.trifive.com/d1/55-59Assy.pdf
another good site for info
http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com...esto/index.htm
another good source if considering a frame swap or clip
https://www.gmupfitter.com/body-builder-manuals/
a great wheel/tore size site for tire size comparison, sizes etc
https://tiresize.com/comparison/
a site for tire size-gear ratio-trans-and final rpm
https://www.randysworldwide.com/calculators/tire-height
a site with calculator to see your wheel offset and how it affects the steering geometry with a different tire size or wheel offset
https://www.wheel-size.com/calc/?whe...cl=50mm&sr=0mm
another rpm =rear ratio calculator
http://www.csgnetwork.com/multirpmcalc.html
how about a list of what you want it to be like when done. canyon carver, grocery getter, weekend cruiser in town, highway tripper, trailer queen.....

[dsraven]

these guys build a nice frame and they are in Canada so the USD goes further
https://www.canadianhotrodsinc.com/f...MaApB1EALw_wcB
these guys have lots of parts like gussets, 4 link kits, etc and they are also in Canada. they also make a do it yourself MII front end
https://welderseries.com/
youtube walton fab does a TCI MII front install
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrhDqYhnnSk
heidts has a good write up on understanding IFS that everyone should read prior to installing an IFS system. here is the catalogue, check out page 92 for the write up
https://www.heidts.com/wp-content/up...on-reduced.pdf

[hilljob26]

im definitely wanting to drop it and bag it these ideas are great i guess in the end i want a lowered truck with big wheels all the way around and a ls engine

[dsraven]

before you decide what your plan will be take a good hard look at the usual rusty spots on the truck. above the window, around/above the rain gutter, around the hinge pillars and door hinge areas, the floor, the front and rear cab mounts, the rear cab corners, the inner cowl, the steps and rockers anything that they sell a replacement panel or repair panel for is a suspect area. these trucks have a cowl vent that goes into an air plenum reaching across the truck from side to side in front of the windshield, down each side to a kick panel vent and then exiting through a drain hole at the bottom of the inner cowls. since this is a rain and leaf/debris catcher, and the drain is a small hole at the bottom, the drain plugs up. the rain water and ice builds up until it spills out through the kick panel vents and out onto the floor. from there it exits out the hinge pillars and/or step and starts the rust process or rotting the pillars, floor, cab mounts under the floor and front fender lower rear mount. if you want some pics of what to look for just pm me your email address and I can send you some pics of mine.
I say this because my old 57 was in really rough shape and that is the reason for doing the frame and floor/firewall swap with a gmc envoy from the 2000's. this meant that the floor repairs, cab mounts, firewall mods, etc were not required. it also meant the suspension/brakes were upgraded to 4 wheel discs (12") all around with a "top hat" style park brake, a fuel tank with built in pump and fuel system lines etc were already in place, if you get the right unit (trailblazer SS) it will come with a 6L LS engine and auto O/D trans. rear suspension is a 4 link with coils or air bags, front suspension is struts with lowering struts available, stabilizer bars already set up, firewall mounted brake booster (ok, not really appealing to the eye but comes with the package and is bolted to a plate that is bolted to the firewall) and pedal set (integral as a unit with the drive by wire accell pedal as well), power rack and pinion, floor mounted cable style shifter, floor mounted hand brake, complete carpet set to fit the floor well, seats with integral belts, console, etc etc. a frame swap is not for the faint of heart or for those who are only good for short projects though. doing some of the rust repairs isn't either. the trailblazer/envoy/rainier/saab swap will be a tad wide track width for the T/F truck though so if big dish wheels are what you like then maybe not for you. just a thought.

[dsraven]

03 crown vic track width will be too wide prolly, eh? (67")
check the inside fender width from inside lip to inside lip on your truck, then compare that to a crown vic or other donor. if you get the parts for free some extra work seems like it is bearable. I have seen builds where they put the truck on the complete crown vic frame, Fords though usually but that's just the name plate.
check this build thread, starting on post 104. he has widened the rear fenders to match the track width he has after a corvette suspension was installed with wide wheels. awesome job. crown vic could work if you do a little fender fab work after. looks like your fenders will need some help anyway.
https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...=766016&page=5

crown vic stripped frame
https://www.idmsvcs.com/2vmod/hybrids/ladderframe2.jpg

thread with crown vic frame dimension drawings
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...r-81-f150.html

[dsraven]

that thread with the corvette suspension and wide wheels he also had the front fenders widened. the shop that did the work did a great job and the 58-59 front fenders kinda lend themselves to that extra width mod more than the 55-57 trucks do. my opinion.

[hilljob26]

thanx for the input i truly appreciate it after looking at it pretty good the fenders are the worst everything else looks pretty decent in my eyes nothing i cant tackle anyway

[hilljob26]

let the fun begin its in the shop

[hilljob26]

Well. The clip is off. A d unfortunately. About the only usable part is the core support. But. It’s a productive day

[dsraven]

yeah, I had a couple like that too. they looked good till the wrenches came out. stuff just tore apart with a bit of torque on the bolts. oh well, better to replace with solid stuff than spend all that time and effort trying to fix a tin foil front end. I didn't bother trying to blast mine since it was obviously paint holding it together. yours?
did that change your plans for the truck?

[dsraven]

on mine I needed every patch panel sold aftermarket.
I would look closely at the underside of the floor where the cab mounts are. should be flat fore to aft and side to side. if it rotted it gets weak and the floor takes up the slack it seems. also the A pillar where the hinges are, below the floor level. remove the inside cover that goes floor to dash on the pillar and have a look inside there, it's where they usually hide the thin metal, haha. also the front-upright-side to side panel part on the step below the hinges. it's where the cab mount spot welds on and it is a few layers deep so it tends to hold moisture and rot out.
post up some close ups of what you have. the rest looks pretty good (?) from the last pics posted.

[hilljob26]

It definitely hasn’t changed my plans. Other than maybe doing a 57 front end instead. I simply like the look better. And everything is pretty much the same isn’t it. I could be wrong. I’m excited to get the mustang 2 ifs on the front of this thing. I’m not opposed to body work. The cab needs some work. But it’s got good bones. The fenders were just too far

[dsraven]

Check the frame and body dimensions in the assembly manual for specifics, (google 55-59 factory assembly manual, pick the tribe site for free dowload), but the 58 and 59 have a longer front end and thus longer frame. The rad support frame brackets are also further forward for the same reason but look like the same actual brackets. The hood hinges are also different and are a single contained unit with spring bolted onto the firewall in the same spot I think. The Cavs are supposed to be interchangeable for all the years if you buy an aftermarket cab but in reality there are a few little differences like the bump out for the wiper motor space. I believe the front spring hangers are located in the same place etc so other than the frame being longer ahead of the spring mounts they are the same from there back.sheet metal is all different ahead of the cab.
I'm sure you have this figured out but you wanna have the frame blocked up at your desired rake angle and levelled side to side before doing the MII cross member install. Most guys install them a little ahead of the stock axle center line because the truck will sit lower than stock and, because the front fender wheel opening is sorta round forward of the tire and angled behind the tire, it makes the tire look like it is being stuffed into the rear of the fender the lower the body drops over the frame. It's really good to mock up the ride height with the tire size you want so you can figure the new axle center line.

[hilljob26]

Well. Old suspension is out. This was a chore on itself. But I love the work. Yeah. I did some looking at dimensions. I’m sure I could make it work. I guess I will just have to see what’s out there for parts and go from there

[dsraven]

I had my 57 on a 58 frame. Just moved the rad support brackets back some and let the frame hang out the front. I didn't finish that truck as somebody else needed it worse than me, lol.

[hilljob26]

So you basically just moved the core support brackets to make it work and finish the front of the frame

[dsraven]

yup.
here's a pic of the 58 frame with the 57 sitting on top. this shows the rad support brackets moved, the old bracket holes and also the amount needed to cut off the frame horns. I have that dimension somewhere but can't seem to locate the pics.
what MII cross member are you thinking? I went with a TCI through a retailer here but was shipped the wrong cross member and got little to no help with dimensions etc. I ended up figuring it out myself to get the geometry right (lic'd mechanic by trade) but the truck sat lower than I wanted, that may have been from the mods required to the cross member but that would only account for a small amount, possibly 3/8-1/2". I went with the 2" drop spindles and a 235/75r15 (28.9" tall) tire, front and rear, for mock up. I moved the axle center line ahead about an inch and at my ride height, with the lower control arms level to the ground and a 2 deg rake angle, my rockers at the front of the door were about 6" off the ground.
gotta say, check what you are getting from any supplier. control arm tube thickness, ball joint quality, brake parts, shocks, stab bar ends etc etc. when assembled the rubbers on the ball joints were squeezed down and would be open on one side. not gonna last long. some ball joints and tie rod ends have a sealed rubber which is much better in my opinion. TCI has probably come along since then as this was about 10 years ago when I did that frame.
welders series has lots of brackets etc that may come in handy. I would advise a digital magnetic torpedo level for assembly and this can be placed across a longer level for frame side to side levelling etc. the torpedo level will help you get the control arms level etc.
the LS engine with a camaro oil pan, camaro engine mounts bolted to block and camaro exhaust manifolds fits well between the frame rails. let me know if you wanna see the pics, just pm me your email address.

[Jason 56]

I like where this is going. I’ll be following!

[hilljob26]

perfect that might just be where i go i bought mine from gearhead industries i cant just buy everything at once so i have to nickle and dime it

[hilljob26]

attached everything tonight just to check fitment nothing is tight but it definitely points this in the right direction