Throttle stops.. Some one help me :)

[Super73]

Ok, I know nothing about them. Looked at summit and I see there are electric and CO2 based. What all do you need to make them work. Here is what I'm looking for.

Set initial starting throttle by %
Set a time frame in which it will go wide open

I'm finding a few more events by us that are 1/8 mile no track prep. I want to be able to set the throttle stop at say 40% while holding down the trans brake button (this is new to me too). When I release, it goes WOT over say 1 second or so. I think it's be easier then training my right foot

I think I like the idea of an electric so I don't have to fill another bottle. But not sure.

[hotrod 80]

I have no idea what they are for or how they work , but i found that restrictor / stop motors can have higher compression without detonation when necked down . I believe this is due to velosity and or turbulance . Why not use a timing control and ease the power in ?

[djracer]

I would buy a digital 7 and do it with timing like hotrod 80 suggested. Can you not leave without the bottle then ramp in the spray? If I was gonna do this I would look at an fjo nitrous controller.

[Marv D]

The best is the iris / disk type that sits under the carb. REAL pricey but they are the most accurate I'm hearing. If you don't want to spend a couple of grand on a T-stop and controller, the Dedenbear Co2 linkage type is probably what you want. Most popular anyways. A pair of modified TS-10 is what Regan uses on his tunnelram, and I'm going to give a TS-30 a try on my tunnelram You can get either of TS- in kit form with a Co2 bottle, regulator and lines, or solenoid only. I'd stay away,, VERY FAR away from the electric solenoid stops. I've ran solenoid shifters and they all seem rather 'clunky'. I cant imagine the throttle stops would be any different. Besides, with Co2 you have adjustment for how fast the ram moves from part throttle to full throttle. A solenoid simply SLAMS one way (a TS30 is pressurie controled both directions).

Controller is going to get in your pocket too. You can go with a simple two stage controller or jump feet first into a command center that offers just about any racing electronics you can imagine. If you ever go to transbrake delay, air / automated shiftes by time or rpm, line lock burnout timer, 2 or 4stage throttle stop controllers, RPM / timer switches for N2o activtion,, the Command centers have just buttloads of 'goodies' to play with.
Be careful about what some events will consider 'electronics' and what is not. Usually if you run a single wire to the transbrake and don't use the transbrake delay, your not electronics. But every track and sanctioning body has their own rules.
electronics. But I've also seen rules that says ANYTHING that is other than a direct, mechanical throttle operation is 'electronics class'.

[Super73]

Hotrod/Kevin,

There is no need for a Digital 7 when I have all that control in my PCM using HPtuners (nice thing about the LS1). I have played with it a ton. Pulling 15* timing NA does wonders, but I still can't leave flat on the floor. Maybe if I had a T-brake in it. But it just flashes the verter too quick and shocks the tires too hard.

The events I am doing are more of a "street" race like event. Given, it's not a street race, but there is no prep and not a lot of good rubber down since it only happens a few times a year.

The other issue with this is shift extensions. Let's say I pull timing from 2,800 to 6,400. I loose some timing on my shifts as it could drop bellow 6,400. With a 4,900 rpm verter, I have a hard time going less than 6k-6,400rpm and still really planting the tires at a dusty unprepped event.

It's interesting, moving 10 mph, I can hit the pedal as hard/fast as I want and it dead hooks every time NA. It's just the initial movement with no track prep. At this last event, once I was rolling, WOT and the first stage came on, no issues with being planted at all and that was at 5,800rpm. But I had to pedal it for a second or two out of the hole as the initial shock to the tire was too much at 60% throttle.

Perhaps the transbrake itself will help. Allowing me to find the throttle % in which it will leave initially get 5-10 feet out and let it rip.

I just think a throttle stop would be more accurate. Set it to say 25% and have it fully in with in 1 second. I think something like that would work.





Thanks Marv..

I'm assuming something like that can be set on the T-brake button, tip in at any given throttle % and ramp in as fast as you'd like?

Is this as simple as they come for a controller? It looks like you can controll start and end. I think I only need the start ramp.

How does the stop actually work? Do you regulate the pressure on the CO2 to open the stop faster/slower?

Looks like the CO2 cyl would connect to your linkage, is that right? If so, how does that effect pedal feel and reaction when your not using the T-stop?

[hotrod 80]

Originally Posted by djracer

I would buy a digital 7 and do it with timing like hotrod 80 suggested. Can you not leave without the bottle then ramp in the spray? If I was gonna do this I would look at an fjo nitrous controller.

The digital 7 was what i was thinking also . I would leave retarded and ramp timing back in spraying it at the hit . Say leave at 0* timing and ramp up quickly . then bring in the spray after a roll was attained if the track won't take it . I am not familiar with HP tuners YET , but im sure it will be coming in the future as im building what i believe is my last 23* motor now

[QUOTE=Super73;4014034]Hotrod/Kevin,

There is no need for a Digital 7 when I have all that control in my PCM using HPtuners (nice thing about the LS1). I have played with it a ton. Pulling 15* timing NA does wonders, but I still can't leave flat on the floor. Maybe if I had a T-brake in it. But it just flashes the verter too quick and shocks the tires too hard.

Again i was thinking timing ramped in at the hit with spray or spray delayed

The events I am doing are more of a "street" race like event. Given, it's not a street race, but there is no prep and not a lot of good rubber down since it only happens a few times a year.

Most of the "street" events here have rules against the throttle stop and electronics

[Hottrucks]

I know this may sound corny but in my S10 I adjust when the spray comes on by using a tach that has a shift light...I adjust the shift light to delay my spray until I'm rolling the canm comes into it.. theres no light but it seems to work

the motor is nothing fancy just a 383 roller..I if I remember right its a 285 with 510 lift I'm running a fogger plate with a 125 pill

[Super73]

I hear what your saying on using timing to take some shock out of the tires. I have done that before. The biggest problem I found with this, is too much and you start runing in to really running like crap and bogging bad also your fueling goes out the window unelss you sepnd time correcting for it. The last track outing, I had 19* timing on the hit for the motor ramping to full timing at 6,200 (forgot that tune was in there). Went to spray on it and being dumb, I took another 10* out from 2,800 on up. So it left with 9* timing, fell on it's face so bad it cut a 1.9x

Here is what a table looks like in HP tuners. Typically WOT on the motor is .84-.88 g/cyl (goes up a little on 1 stage to .87-.91).. You can see in this table I have my timing ramping down at 5,200 from 28* to 24* then at 5,600 from 24* to 20* as I have the bottle coming on at 5,800.

Take a look at the throttle position, wheel speed and rpm.. You can clearly see I had to pedal it at first. Once I felt it was hooked and I laid in to it no traction issues what so ever.

The computer averages the timing drop so If I have it go 4* over 400 rpm's it's 1* per 100 rpm. Samr goes for increasing timing. Say I pull 12* on the hit over a 400rpm span. It'll have 16* coming in and will add 3* each 100rpm.

There are other ways I can do things like moving the intake air temp to be bellow the plate system (currently in the filter/carb hat). I could than use another table that is a timing vs intake air temp. As the computer sees a temp drop, I could have it pull timing too.

Attached is a recording from one of the bottle runs where you can see the timing come down in the graph.


I'm not looking at leaving on the bottle out of the hole in these events. These events also aren't some sanctioned million rule deal. The only things are, Pass tech, No line lock burn outs and it has to be 73 or 65 earlier. There are no timers, it's a flag start and it's all grudge.

[hotrod 80]

Thanks Learning from the HP tuner info . I was thinking more along the lines of ramping timing in time increments vs rpm . I'll leave it alone and lurk for a while and enjoy the input of others .

[Super73]

Gotcha, there is no way to do it over time that I know of, just RPM.

[Marv D]

Originally Posted by Super73

I'm assuming something like that can be set on the T-brake button, tip in at any given throttle % and ramp in as fast as you'd like?

Is this as simple as they come for a controller? It looks like you can controll start and end. I think I only need the start ramp.

How does the stop actually work? Do you regulate the pressure on the CO2 to open the stop faster/slower?

Looks like the CO2 cyl would connect to your linkage, is that right? If so, how does that effect pedal feel and reaction when your not using the T-stop?

The controller is going to time everything from the release of the transbrake. No matter if you use the TB delay function, everything is timed (or you can set up shifts by time or rpm in the CC3).

The TS30 has a air bleed on the EXHAUST side of the T-stop. It is really a restrictor valve the restricts the flow of air out of the cylinder and it pulled to WOT. You have a BUTTLOAD of things to play with here. You can regulate things 'slightly' by regulator pressure, but for the most part the pressure is set to working around 50psi to accommodate shifters, T-stops, chute air launchers etc. The air bleed on the left end of the TS-30 shown is your 'ramp' But it's not really a ramp, just more to keep the throttle from being snapped open so fast it stumbles. But you CAN slow it down so much that it would have a 'ramp' effect I imagine.



As far as i know, only the TS 30 and TS40 are air movement BOTH ways. The TS-10 and 20 use the throttle return springs to close the throttle., and air to yank it to WOT. Have not seen the restrictor air bleeds on the 10 and 20, but you can get them from any industrial supplier like McMaster-Carr, Granger etc.

And a word of caution. GET A SPARE BOTTLE. Last night I unloaded the car and reached to open the Co2 bottle,, woops, had forgotten to turn it off last race. EMPTY!!!! A throttle stop car is a worthless POS without air. no air means NO WOT. I air shift the Nova so that was the only issue (not a T-stop car). But if I hadn't had a spare bottle, my evening would have been screwed. As it was I got a BYE into the semi and put together a 0.011 package,, but it wasn't good enough. Matt Bongs perfect 0.000 reaction time and running his number with a 0.003 well.. how the heck do you beat that!!! Just about the time you think your getting kind of good at this carp,, along comes some kid and puts you in your place!!! <LOL>

[Super73]

So what I'm understanding is T-stops don't have a way to really roll in to the trottle.. You might be able to slow it down some, but no real knowldege of doing so, more of a possiblility. More of a delayed x.xxx time off your brake release to run a certain xx.xx class?

[Marv D]

Yes / No
With the throttle stop you typically use the 'starting line controller' function. In bracket racing you use this mostly when your the quicker car but that's another story.. You stage with your foot on the floor. The starting line controller / throttle stop has the throttle limited to (say 20-30%) . you release the TB button on the top yellow, with a 1.x delay before the timers start (to allow the tree to come down to the last yellow )

The starting line controller will allow the throttle stop to pull to fullthrottle 0.xx seconds before the transbrake release. THAT's the function that I think is going to work for you. If you set the air-bleed re-stricter to EXTREMELY SLOW..... you can have the throttle come from 30 or 60% to WFO over a second,, maybe two. BUT I don't know how consistent it would be. Co2 Bottle pressure fluctuates just like the N2o. Might be tough to keep power ramping in consistantly. Other option would be TWO throttle stops. One to allow a increase from 30% to something like 65%, the second to pull from 60 to WFO. That you could time very accurately and consistantly. 'Steps' of throttle increase, but not really 'ramping in' like the timing control in the digital 7535 boxes. However, I'm fighting a limited room issue to put a single TS40 and tunnelram between the firewall and bellcrank. TWO,, wow that would be a chore!

OR....Ya know,, actually what may work for you better (but be somewhat costly) would be an electronic boost (wastegate) controller like the big turbo boyz use. I bet that could be incorporated into the throttle linkage somehow????

[Shon]

have you messed with the burst knock settings? one way of being at 100% throttle and it pull timing based on the change in air flow.