Brake Bleeding HELP!!

[Born Lucky]

O.K. so I have a 1964 C20 with a Eaton H052 rear end.
Here is my problem! I can not seem to bleed my brakes. I changed all my brake lines all new wheel cylinders all around, new brake hareware, new master cylinder. The entire system is NEW.
I starting bleeding the system but for the life of me could not get all the air out. The master cylinder was bench bleed until all air was out.
So, I decide to purchase the Phoenix Bleeding System. Upon using the system I can not force the fluid in, it would blow the fitting off the bleed screw( these was happening in both the rear wheels) so I was troubled. I removed the bleed screw to discover that there was almost no hole at all in both bleed screws. Manufacturing defect, I guess that is why I could not get the air out.
Now I install New bleed screws and I can not get the fluid to exit the master cylinder. If I remove the line from the master cylinder I can get a good flow.
I remove the master cylinder again and bench bleed for a second time, still I can not get the fluid to exit the master cylinder.
I read the manual and it states that the 1964 master cylinder is different that you need a special tool to pressure bleed. Could this system not be bleed with a Phoenix System?
Do I neeed to do something different? Man I am at witts end I want to finish this brake job so I can get plates and drive this thing.
Any help would be great.

[jchav62]

Are you just having problems getting the back brakes bled? Or all the way around?

I have trouble getting the back brakes to flow. One trick is to put vise grips on the front rubber brake lines to block the fronts and sent everything to the back.

That may help... Good luck...

[Chris65GMC]

Do you have the shoes adjusted properly? IF the shoes dont contact the drum, you will never get a pedal. I've had troubles with bleeding a new brake system in the past and it can be a real pain.

After re-reading your post, this is probably not your problem. Maybe try gravity bleeding it? Sounds like a bad MC.

-Chris

[Born Lucky]

At the moment I want to use my Phoenix System to force the fliud up the master cylinder. I am starting at the rear drivers side ( manuals recommendation) but the fluid will not exit the master cylinder. If I remove the line entering the master cylinder fluid flowe nice and smooth. It is like the master cylinder is closed or something. I have bench bleed 2 times and it shows no air and the piston is very firm went I get ready to reinstall.
Do I have to depress my brake peddle or something?

[Born Lucky]

Yes all shoes are adjusted correctly.

[Born Lucky]

This is my new master cylinder.
I bench bled with the second bleed scew closed Was I correct or do I neww to crack this screw open.

[psycotruckr]

I have been working on my 66 panel and just happen to be doing the same as you, brakes. I did not bench bleed at all and did it on the truck the old fashion way. once you have fluid in most of the system bleed the screw on the master then go to the left rear wheel (farthest from master by line length) and do it with a hose and jar. It still took me two days to get it to satisfify me but it will work. I had alot of problems with small leaks through out the system was my issue and I did all new as well. I have never seen a system that was that hard to get leak free but once there it worked. Hope this helps.

[Born Lucky]

Originally Posted by psycotruckr

I have been working on my 66 panel and just happen to be doing the same as you, brakes. I did not bench bleed at all and did it on the truck the old fashion way. once you have fluid in most of the system bleed the screw on the master then go to the left rear wheel (farthest from master by line length) and do it with a hose and jar. It still took me two days to get it to satisfify me but it will work. I had alot of problems with small leaks through out the system was my issue and I did all new as well. I have never seen a system that was that hard to get leak free but once there it worked. Hope this helps.

Did you crack the bleed screw on the master cylinder also?
I am thinking that you have to crack this screw in order to releive pressure so the brake fluid can flow!

[Hottrucks]

does your fancy new brake bleader have a vacum side to it ? what I do is flip a bottle upside down in the master with a small hole hook up my power bleeder ( on the vacum side) and suck the fluid down though the system into the bottom next to my pump

[1stseries55]

I also got sucked into Stacy David's good marketing speal on the phoenix bleeder, I have never been able to get it to work properly on the reverse bleed function... It is not the 1st $130 I have wasted in my life but it still pissed me off.

If you are like me the main issue is that it is difficult to get a good assistant to bleed them the old fashioned way so I bought the phoenix system so I could do it myself.... I ended up buying speedbleeders and they worked awesome.

http://www.speedbleeder.com/

[aerotruk63]

On my 64 GMC 960 I had the service manual states to pressure bleed only. I tried the old method of pumping the brakes to no avail. Went to a couple of garages that specialize in trucks and unless they pressure bled the system it didn't happen. My Dad made me a pressure bleeder out of a threaded nipple two end caps and fittings. We took a flat plate of aluminum to cover the master cylinder. You need only 5-7 psi to bleed the system.
Did you try loosening the fittings as you move away from the master to see if you can get fluid towards the back to start with? Sounds like the line or lines are blocked.

[Born Lucky]

Yes the 1964 Supplement states that the 1964 master cylinder is different and that you have to pressure bleed.
So is this the ONLY way!
If I pump my brake peddle and crack a, any bleed screw I can get fluid out. I just can not seem to get all the air out.
This has got to be the most frustrating brake job that I have every done!

[jholley]

Ill second the speedbleeders. Some of the best cash I ever spent.

Originally Posted by 1stseries55

I also got sucked into Stacy David's good marketing speal on the phoenix bleeder, I have never been able to get it to work properly on the reverse bleed function... It is not the 1st $130 I have wasted in my life but it still pissed me off.

If you are like me the main issue is that it is difficult to get a good assistant to bleed them the old fashioned way so I bought the phoenix system so I could do it myself.... I ended up buying speedbleeders and they worked awesome.

http://www.speedbleeder.com/

[CSGAS]

Just a theory here, but it sounds like EVERYONE is contributing a few pieces that added up are consistent with a residual pressure check valve that keeps the fluid up high until enough pressure is exerted to force the fluid to the brakes. Can anyone confirm this? Sounds like it would be located in the m/c orifice, since born lucky says he gets good flow with the line disconnected.

Who know what may have gone through engineer's (or lawyer's) heads when for the first decade or so after moving master cylinders from under the floorboard to the firewall.

The Phoenix system may simply not make enough pressure to overcome whatever's designed in, if that's the case...has anyone tried the Phoenix bleeder on a later system that did NOT say it was "special"?

Since hydraulic brakes are intended to multiply the force of a person's foot up to enough power to stop a two-ton or more vehicle without resorting to the "Flintstone style" method, the pressure inside a normal working system goes way beyond 5-7 pounds.

If this theory is true, the gravity bleed plan won't work either but the buddy method would work, well, as effectively as it usually does which is better than you have now.

I'd find some way to check out my theory before just up and increasing any pressure through the system, though...you may be more familiar with these being used on street rods with the m/c under the floorboard and disk brakes with 2lb check valves, but in working on a variety of street rods I've had to work with them applied to drum brakes and inventive experimental designs...this sums up the part that made me consider my theory:

from ECI brakes website
10 PSI Valves - These valves are used in a drum brake system to prevent air from being ingested into the hydraulic system when you release the brake pedal. Typical wheel cylinder seals only seal when there is pressure behind them. Rapid release of the brake pedal creates a vacuum in the system which causes the seals to relax and air is ingested into the wheel cylinders. Maintaining 10 PSI in the system at all times prevents this. Some disc/drum master cylinders have 10 PSI residual pressure valves installed internally, some don't. If you're not sure, call us and we can tell you how to check. Also, some new style wheel cylinders have cup expanders which negate the need for the residual pressure valve. Either way, if you are not sure whether you have one or not, put one in. They are not cumulative and it won't hurt anything if you have two. Don't worry about brake drag, it takes roughly 75 PSI to overcome the return springs.

[1Bad62Pro/Street]

Anybody tried this product?
Motive Power Bleeder
http://www.motiveproducts.com/


Actually helped my dad yesterday evening do this on a 33 Ford Coupe....
Still had air in the lines after an hour.
Even in the resvior...
I am going to buy a bleeder kit.
Just don't know the best.
http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/pr...der/index.html

[aerotruk63]

Motive Power Bleeder, newer version of the old pressure bleeder pot. It should be above the master when bleeding.

[Fred T]

For a homemade pressure bleeder.
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=155163

[Rich 5150 69]

http://www.motiveproducts.com/files/3bleeder.jpg

I have one and have used it on three differant cars works great, money well spent.

[Born Lucky]

Finally A job done!!!
I build my own pressure bleeder and it worked wonderfully.
All brakes are good, peddle nice and firm. I also had to adjust my brake peddle travel. All good.
Thanks all for the input.