66 C10 T5 swap ID questions - I B Stumped....

[jocko]

Now that I got my decent deal on the trans at Pomona - I went in eyes wide open, assuming the seller didn't necessarily know what he was talking about (i.e. he said it was a WC S-10 transmission...). Now, I didn't have my handy dandy magic decoder ring with me, but I always thought all S10s were non-WC. The seller said the 92 was a WC... I dunno - I can find no ref to back that up, in fact, every ref I've checked says all S10 trannys were non-WC. That's ok, I was willing to get just an S10 non-WC trans since I decided to go the T5 route. The seller also told me the mech speedo drive was swapped in the place of the electronic speedo sensor/drive - and there is one there (I better look to make sure there are actually drive and driven gears in it!!) Bottom line - it's a T5 with an S10 tailshaft housing - that much is certain - sdo I bought it.

But once I got home and started doing some decoding, I'm scratchin my head big time, so appreciate any insight from those that have gone here before....

The HAMB/flatheadv8.org/etc sites I use as my guide on the T5 stuff said to IGNORE the casting numbers on the cases - only use the metal tag bolted to the tailhousing as a ref for identifying the trans. But, I'm also thinking that metal tag could have come from anything, especially from a guy who had several different T5's for sale. Anyway, I couldn't help myself - here's what I've tracked down....

The "Metal Tag" # (i.e. the fuzzy 5th pic) - 1352-232
According to the flathead v8 T5 lookup tool (http://www.flatheadv8.org/ernie/ernie-t5.htm), this ID's as "GM '93 MY S 2.8L WC" What's the "MY" mean.... hmm.

But the other stamped numbers on the cases are (i.e. the numbers that flatheadv8 says to completely ignore...):
Main Case: 1352-065 this ID's as "84 Mustang/Capri 5.0"
Main Case Top Cover: 1352-097 (No impact, no idea...)
Tailshaft Hsg: 1352-232 ID's as "1352-066

Take a look at the pic of the front of the trans - someone pls confirm for me that this is a CHEV bolt pattern and no a Ford or Astro van... PLEASE!
I was 99% sure this was a chev bolt pattern and still am, but pls ID por favor.

Stranger still...
I did the "count the rotations for gear ratios" on my trans and here's what I came up with:
1st= approx 3.76
2nd=approx 2.2-ish
3rd=approx 1.3-ish
4th=1:1 (at least I'm prtetty confident on that one.... Ha!)
5th=approx .75 (so am assuming it's a .73 o/d)

If you look again at the front of the trans - the trans has the tell-tale bearing race (just below the input shaft collar) of a WC (i.e. not the freeze plug looking one piece thingy...) So this further ID's it as a WC.

Here are the rest of the stats:
i/p shaft = 1" 14 spline (i.e. a chev i/p shaft)
o/p shaft = 26 spline

So, finally (yes, I know this is a lot of jibberish and a lot to ask, but what the heck) here are my questions:
1. Can someone pls confirm that the main case has the bolt mounting pattern for a chev bell housing?
2. Any ideas what this thang is? WC or not WC based on the #'s above? (the bearing race in the front below the input collar and the 1352-232 seem to indicate it is a WC - but of course not out of an S10)
So, the tailshaft has to be an add-on. And that means the guy was pulling my leg or had no clue. Either way, makes the rest suspicious.
3. From face of the trans to tip of i/p shaft is 7+1/8" and the collar is about 4.8" diameter. I believe the Hamilton adapter plate will work in this case to take care of the T5's longer i/p shaft (but this is an S-10 non-WC-ism, if this is truly a WC, then it should be the correct input shaft length, I believe - anyone know this for sure?)

Any other comments welcome. I usually seem to be able to track down stuff, but this appears to be a Franken-trans.

HERE'S WHAT I THINK(!) I HAVE:
92 or 93 WC GM T5 with an S10 tailshaft added and mech speedo hookup added (or it was an early S10 tailshaft with it anyway).

The case stamping is kinda throwing me off because it IDs as a Ford Mustang 5.0 WC, but flatheadv8.org is pretty adamant that the case stampings do NOT indicate what the trans was originally built for or installed in, any case could be used for pretty much any application in the same year (i.e. without crossing Ford/Chev, etc - but post-93 were all Ford cases and BH mounting, I believe) - only the metal tag properly IDs according to the refs I've checked out. But in today's swap meet world and with all the rebuilt (or not) T5's - that tag could also easily have been swapped. If I trust it though (BIG IF), it does ID as what I guessed above. But then the gear ratios don't line up with any of those trans's either.
Arggh.
Thanks guys, appreciate your help. Here's the pics.

[jocko]

HEY WAIT: Just found this ref, which I had read several times already and missed this statement:

"In the beginning, there was no WC/NWC discussion as all transmissions were NWC. The WC designation began in ’85 with Ford using it in the 5.0 Mustang first. F-Body (Camaro/Firebird) began using WC units in ’88. The S10 didn’t use WC until ’93. The differences between WC & NWC are principally in the bearings & synchros. Externally, there is one readily identifiable difference between WC & NWC (without having to know input sizes & spline counts) and that’s the front countershaft bearing retainer. The NWC has a one-piece design that looks like a large welch/freeze plug while the WC has a two-piece design that looks like two concentric circles"

Considering my seller was insistent it was an S10 WC T5 - the "The S10 didn’t use WC until ’93" statement and the fact that my tag says 93 WC, maybe it IS true and I've scored a pretty darn nice trans. Hmmm.

[oldtrux]

1352-232 gm 1993 2.8 litre world class 3.70-3.97-2.34-1.48-1.00-0.72

[Rich 5150 69]

Great score Jocko...!

[jocko]

OLDTRUX, YOU ROCK. And thanks for the PM also - much appreciated. Sounds like your project is roughly the same as mine.

Question - you listed 6 ratios... ??

ANY idea what it came out of? I did find proof of 93 S10's being WC so maybe the seller was actually right on the money! And if so, then his statement that he just added mech speedo hookup makes sense - the 93 would have been electronic.

WHERE did you find the above info? the -232 matches what I found on it also:
GM '93 MY S 2.8L WC
But I'm not sure what the MY S means - maybe mustang, y??ukon??, S10...

I'm assuming if it IS an S10 then I'll need to grab the Hamilton spacer or some sort like that.

Thanks again oldtrux, really interested in where you found that detail.
Jocko

[jocko]

Originally Posted by Rich 5150 69

Great score Jocko...!

Rich, I think you might be right, an S10 WC is somewhat of a rare bird I believe (I was convinced they didn't exist... but have found a few sources now that mention it as 93 only year for S10 WC). The seller thouhgt it was a 92.
I just went from thinking "pretty good deal" when I bought it, to "hey, maybe I got screwed with Frankentranny", when I got home, to "hey, even better deal!". Normally, I just stop at "hey, maybe I got screwed ..."

Oh well, better lucky than good lookin...

[oldtrux]

hi jocko first number is reverse.just google t5 identification.first one up is british v8/trans ident or something.i would send you the link but i'm spun with computers lol.cheers dan

[jocko]

Oddly, I wrote down that either Hamilton or 4C's Transmissions told me that ALL T5's post 1992 were Ford Bell Hsg pattern. Clearly this isn't the case. Again, maybe the S10 was the exception and Camaro's and Fbirds had the Ford BH pattern (which is true - I knew the WC T5's switched to Ford pattern even in GMs somewheres along the line).

Good news is that if this is a 93 WC with chev pattern, then being WC should mean that the input shaft is the right length - maybe all I'll have to worry about is the bell hsg opening diameter.

[jocko]

Originally Posted by oldtrux

hi jocko first number is reverse.just google t5 identification.first one up is british v8/trans ident or something.i would send you the link but i'm spun with computers lol.cheers dan

Ah! Got it, thanks very much Dan.

[oldtrux]

not sure what the "my"is neither but the s is s/10-sonoma truck.looks like a nice clean trans you found.nice job.....keep us updated

[Leadfoot Lambert]

Here are some non world class comparison pics, S10 and V8 Camaro, first pic is the Chevy bellhousing pattern you asked for

Next is the input shafts, Camaro on top 26 spline, S10 on bottom 14 spline, notice the length difference at the tip, S10 is too long for V8 applications

Next is the front bearing support, S10 on the left

And this is the S10 tail housing, Sorry I don't have a Camaro tail pic but the shifter is way at the back as far as possible.

Here are some links you may find useful, If you use a truck bellhousing and you find that your bearing support is too small for the hole in the bellhousing I have a spare spacer for that, PM me if you need it.
http://http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=169265
http://hamiltonintakes.com/products/...5-swap-adapter
http://www.inliners.org/Jack/T5tech.html
http://www.5speeds.com./
http://http://www.vanpeltsales.com/F..._fivespeed.htm
http://www.6066gmcguy.org/SM420.htm

[Leadfoot Lambert]

Too many https on the second to last link, copy and paste it without the first http:// and it will work,

[jocko]

thanks leadfoot - I do have a 1" 14 spline i/p shaft - but am wondering if in 93 (only) it was a shorter length because it was the one and only year for WC in an S10... I am guessing it's not shorter and will need to be spaced out to make it fit.
(that makes me start to worry a little about depth of the spline engagement into the clutch, but will have to wait and see).

Also, if I'm not mistaken, the 68 was the year that the chevy bell hsgs went to the larger hole - so my hole (66) should hopefully be the right size. But considering I may need the adapter to compensate for the input shaft length, I'd almost prefer that the bell be the "wrong" size... if it's the same between my 66 and the 93 (I believe BOTH are the small hole size) then I may need a different bell (with the big hole) in order to use the Hamilton adapter.

Gonna have to wait and see what I've got to work with when I get the 3 speed out. Can measure and comparte then.

Thanks for all the posts and the great info.

[Leadfoot Lambert]

I have read that you can cut the tip of the input shaft down enough to fit a v8, also you should cut the front bearing retainer down so it won't hit the clutch disc, then you should be ok, if you need measurements off the v8 camaro stuff just let me know, also if you end up with a big hole bell housing and need the spacer ring let me know I have a spare. Lots of people have found v8 camaro transmissions and swapped the s10 tail shaft housings onto them to get the better gear ratios and move the shifter forward to fit the truck better, if you end up going this route I have brand new in the boxes GM flywheel for 86 and newer one piece rear main seal 305-350, clutch disc 26 spline, pressure plate and throw out bearing that I'm not going to use [all new GM parts] these parts were ordered for a 87 305 camaro.

[jocko]

thanks Leadfoot - will let you know if I need the measurements off the v8 trans. I can also get them off the trans i'm removing I believe. I don't have the truck apart yet, but I do have a spare small hole bell hsg just in case. However, if my truck has a big hole bell, which I believe it does, and the i/p shaft is too long - I may just solve the both problems with a Hamilton adapter - it compensates for both of those issues. In the process of gathering the misc parts for the swap. I'm gonna replace the shifter with a new unit, and then replace the new unit's stick with a tall one for the truck. Not sure if I need a single bend or double bend - the S10 mounts pretty far fwd, and I'm pretty lazy, so I'm thinkin single bend so it's closer to my knee!

[Scot_Douglas]

I can offer a bit more advice just going through this myself. I have an 86 s10 NWC box with the same input as yours. It was cut down by a previous owner and fits the old cast bellhousing just fine (my input shaft support is a bit bigger, so it works w/o a spacer ring).

The problem I wound up having was when I chose to keep the 168T flywheel that is only drilled for a 11" clutch. From what I could find in my S10 research, there are no 1" / 14T 11" clutch discs anywhere - and the s-10 v8 conversion clutch kit I bought was too small. After a lot of searching, I found the 86 astrovan had a 4.3L 5-spd option that had the 11" clutch so I bought that.

My problems were not entirely over, because the hub on the astro sat too far "out" toward the transmission and required me to add a 0.20" "shim" between the trans and bellhousing. If I didn't do this, the trans wouldn't entirely meet with the bellhousing because the hub splines were bottoming out on the input shaft.

So, FYI, use a 153T flywheel and deal with a different starter OR find a 168T flywheel that can accept the smaller clutch size.