ZDDP.....Zinc.....Save Yourselves

[A.T. RockDriller]

This one isn't the sexiest of subjects...
We have talked about this subject before, and forgive me if there is already a "big old" thread out there staring me in the face....but this subject deserves a bunch of attention and I am sure a bunch of you guys know a whole lot more than I do on this....so inform us.
I just posted this on another part of the board and figured I'd put it top and center for every ones benefit...
Quote:
This is (or should be) the #1 mechanical subject of discussion for us, as classic/high-performance vehicle owners.
No $hit, fella's.
The government has made some mandates that have affected the additives used in over the counter motor oils as of late.
#1 point of concern is zinc content (which is added as a anti-scuff/abrasion and anti wear agent) in motor oils for gasoline engines.
For the most part, zinc has all but been removed from these oils. ZDDP has been the silent savior for flat-tappet cams over the years. It is also responsible for early failure of catalytic converters, and since the government has mandated 100K mile minimum performance standards for cat's for 2012 emissions, oil companies are getting a jump on it....at our expense.
There is quite a bit of info out there on this if you search for it.
Without ZDDP in our oils you can expect cam failure in as little as the first hours of run time on new motors and engine life on our "already broke in" engines to be shortened by a factor of 20. (yes, 1/20th of normal life)
There sure are ways to save our butts....Additives...some diesel oils...etc.
I suggest any oils with the "SM" or "SN" designations be avoided.
Brad Penn break-in oils and racing oils are formulated properly to avoid the damage inherent to these new oil's. Some synthetics also have the right stuff.
Look close at the additives in your favorite oils.
It has been touched on by quite a few of us lately.....but it sure needs to be taken seriously.
If you ever wondered....new engine's being manufactured today have "all roller" valve trains and it's not just for the performance advantages.
Learn as much as you can about this.....keep these old power plants runnin' for a few more decades.

[wildearp]

Brad Penn racing oils have poor ratings for zinc content. This subject is debated to death on most car boards.

I use ZDDP Plus additive and can pick whichever oil I want to put it in.

[faribran]

ok... keep posting.... "we" are ready to learn more..

[A.T. RockDriller]

I knew there were some folks that knew more about this than myself...
Thanks for the feedback....and yes, bring it on...

[SulphuriousSam]

So does anybody here want to recommend an oil to use that still has the zddp? Or should we just do as wildearp and add it?

wildearp, is ZDDP Plus the name brand of the product you use?

I think people should answer here to save me the time of a google search

[63 & 64 Bowties]

This is all new to me, but I just googled it and came up with this article:
http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief2%20...Oil%20Myth.pdf

[chevy_mike]

Castrol Syntec 20w-50 is a blend specifically for classic vehicles. It has the higher zinc levels and is classified as a speciality oil, which is why it can be sold with the higher zinc.

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/gener...tentId=7032644

Autozone is where I got mine. They didn't have enough quarts on the shelf but ordered me two cases. Not cheap as regular oil. I am likely going to use an additive when I run out as I think it is cheaper to buy regular oil and the additive but we'll see when the time comes.

[A.T. RockDriller]

Originally Posted by wildearp

Brad Penn racing oils have poor ratings for zinc content. This subject is debated to death on most car boards.

I use ZDDP Plus additive and can pick whichever oil I want to put it in.

I am convinced that you are basing your opinion on the best info that you can find....like all of us.
I only suggested and used Brad Penns product based on their claimed mineral content...
I found the possible source of your negative opinion ....and would agree with you if that info was all that was available.
I did find a report from independant labs that made Penns product look a bit more attractive.
Quote:

Quote:
ZDDP LAB RESULTS

We have seen the question arise on a number of chat rooms and websites about the amount of Zinc and Phosphorous in our Penn Grade 1 High Performance Oils. The questions seem to have arose after a number of people individually sent samples of our products to Blackstone Lab(s) for analysis. The Blackstone report showed a lower Zinc and Phosphorous additive concentration level then our established in house specifications and laboratory results from our ISO 9001:2008 quality control lab proved.

In an effort to clarify any misconception about our product we did our own testing and sent three virgin oil samples (each from the same identical batch) to both Blackstone Lab and Southwest Research Lab for testing. All three Southwest sample results were completely in line with our internal specifications/analysis. The Blackstone zinc and phosphorous results in all three analysis were lower than our internal specifications/analysis and Southwest Research’s lab results. The results for both the Blackstone and Southwest Research analysis are listed below:

Brad Penn Product........Blackstone.......Southwest Research

Penn Grade 1............zinc 1,214ppm.......zinc 1,540 ppm
20W-50 #7119...........phos 944 ppm........phos 1,319 ppm

Penn Grade 1............zinc 1,424 ppm......zinc 1,565 ppm
10W-30 #7150..........phos 1,139 ppm......phos 1,332 ppm

Brad Penn PCMO..........zinc 689 ppm........zinc 1,051 ppm
20W-50 SJ #7123*........phos 522 ppm........phos 901 ppm

*In some cases we feel our PCMO SAE 20W-50 was sent in for analysis (and not the High Performance Oil SAE 20W-50) which does contain lower Zinc and Phosphorous additive concentration levels.

We feel there is a measurement issue with Blackstone’s oil sample testing and will be addressing this with them. Please feel free to share this information on any chat site or group you belong to. For further information please [click here].
End Quote

Since I'm not a real "race car driver" like some folks, I have to rely on others research and experience to form an educated opinion of my own.

I've used it and still will, based on what I've been exposed to.

Additives are a good way to go also....

No heavy-handed griping intended....I just thought I'd be fair to the Brad Penn group.
Penn Lubricants got a raw deal from the Blackstone Lab on that occasion...and it generated some negative press that they didn't deserve.
Keep smilin' and quit scuffin'.

[blackedoutharley]

I would use Brad Penn, as it is the old Kendall stocks prior to Witco selling out, but they only offer a synthetic or semi-synthetic oil (from what I understand) and I want to run normal dino oil.

I used Kendall GT1 15-40 for years with great results.

[A.T. RockDriller]

Rodger on the Kendall.

[brap999]

Well I'm certainly no expert on the subject, but I thought I'd chime in incase it helps someone else. Near me is Advanced Auto, and they sell Rislone ZDDP additive:

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/web...049_T|GRP60033

This is what I add to my oil when I do an oil change, and haven't had any problems yet. As someone else mentioned there is also ZDDP Plus, but I'd have to order that online as no one seems to sell that around here near me.

[wildearp]

Originally Posted by SulphuriousSam

So does anybody here want to recommend an oil to use that still has the zddp? Or should we just do as wildearp and add it?

wildearp, is ZDDP Plus the name brand of the product you use?

I think people should answer here to save me the time of a google search

Yes, that is the brand. You will not find it cheaper anywhere than on the evil ebay.

Valvoline VR-1 racing oil has the correct zinc, however, they expect you to change it every 500 miles. It may not have the proper detergents and additives for a street car. I have run it, but now use the additive. I just ordered 5 more bottles earlier this week. They are already at my house.

Some diesel grade oils are supposed to have appropriate zinc levels, but that could change at any time or may have already. I ran Chevron Delo 400 15W40 in my hotrods and anything that had a flat tappet camshaft. Not for the zinc, but for the cheap price and heavy duty oil. I hadn't even heard of the zinc issue when I was running it, so I am sure I dodged a bullet on that. A friend used to give me 5 gallon buckets of it from his distributorship for..............free.

[Alan's Classic]

more reading material

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=381780

[Gianyveedub]

Has anyone ever tried diesel oil. I know it may seem odd, but diesel oil has some of the metals and additives that has been taken out of regular motor oil. Just a thought

[HEI451]

All this oils meddling has come about from a couple of issues:

First, camshafts have been evolving, to those of roller lobe profiles, which virtually eliminate the shear of the oils that flat tappet style cams produce. Shear literally squeezes the oil molecules, causing them to break down and become thinner, which gives less lubrication. Roller cams don't have the shear flat tappet cams have, so, modified lighter oils are what the manufacturers are producing.

Second, older engines have things like crankshafts made of silly putty, metallurgy that is soft, compared to newer engines that have induction hardened crankshaft journals, more suited for almost no viscosity oils. Anyone ever see the 0W-15 oils some car manufacturers specify, they pour out at room temp like water, NO viscosity. They can get away with that with roller cams and induction hardened sliding surface parts.

Third, emissions. The thought pattern is to remove the nasty, bad pollutants from the oils package, and add other chemicals to "enhance" lubricity in the oils, which really aren't oils any longer, they are chain chemical packages.

Fourth, mileage. Roller cams, less drag inside the engine from lighter oils, all the stuff oil companies/vehicle manufacturers can advertise to con the public into believing that their snake oils, and econo-boxes get more mileage than they actually do in the real world.

It is going to get far worse before we see any better in the future. Anyone see our "President" this last week or so, bleating that he and his pals want fuel mileages for vehicles, ALL vehicles, to get to 55/60 mpg by 2016? That is unrealistic, and all his plan. The government's plan is a far reaching one, literally force everyone out of their personal vehicles, and onto government supplied public transportation. One of the ways they hope to get more control is by doing NOTHING about out of control fuel prices, and with no oil drilling moratoriums in the Gulf of Mexico, off our own shores. Too bad nobody told other nations about it, they re now in OUR Gulf, drilling for, and pumping out OUR oil.

[Captainfab]

The diesel specific oils no longer have enough ZDDP in them. Diesel engined medium duty trucks began having catalytic converters installed in 2004. The heavy duty trucks started at about the same time or slightly afterwards.

Originally Posted by Gianyveedub

Has anyone ever tried diesel oil. I know it may seem odd, but diesel oil has some of the metals and additives that has been taken out of regular motor oil. Just a thought

[63 & 64 Bowties]

Originally Posted by Captainfab

The diesel specific oils no longer have enough ZDDP in them. Diesel engined medium duty trucks began having catalytic converters installed in 2004. The heavy duty trucks started at about the same time or slightly afterwards.

It wasn't until 2007 for heavy trucks.

[NCD1966]

I'm using Joe Gibbs 10W-30 Synthetic Hot Rod Oil
http://www.jegs.com/i/Joe+Gibbs+Raci...01506/10002/-1
in my "66. I buy it from the local performance store for about the same price as jegs.
I'll get 5k out of a oil change. I probably won't put that much in a year. So Ill just changed it one a year and the filter every 6 months.

[NCD1966]

since we are on the oil topic.

My 1984 has always ran straight 30 weight oil. (that what my grandfather used)
It has 87K on the clock. I'm thinking of switching it to Joe Gibbs oil like I use in my 66.

but I dont know if I should switch it to a synthetic.
What your thoughts?

[bama63]

the chevron delo 4oo LE (low emissions) does have the lower zinc and phosphorus levels...but the delo 400 multi grade is still the same as always for the older diesel engines, i use the multi grade at work for our older equipment and trucks. the emissions restriction were implemented for on highway trucks only, these restrictions do not include heavy equipment used for off road applications so shell and chevron as well as swepco and mobil delvac still manufacture oil for these engines here is my latest analysis for a liebherr 631 loader with 4282 hrs oil used is 15w-40 CI-4+ spec delo 400 multi grade. these are 3 sampling intervals also notice the zinc and phos content.


Hrs. 220 250 300
Iron 29 31 20
Chrm 1 0 0
Alum 1 0 0
Copp 2 1 1
Lead 1 1 2
Tin 1 0 0
Sili 6 3 5
Sod 4 3 2
Pot 0 1 0
Moly 85 50 96
Bor 10 16 2
Mag 1161 914 807
Cal 1550 1303 1182
Bar 0 0 1
Phos 1340 1006 1050
Zinc 1504 1182 1188

Soot 1.5 1.9 .4
Vis 15.3 14.4 14.7
TBN 7.4 7.04 6.19

[SBTork]

anyone use this stuff? I've been thinking about trying some...

http://www.compoil.com/

[LostMy65]

A song by RUSH just came to mind.
'Motor Law'
Posted via Mobile Device

[blackedoutharley]

Originally Posted by SBTork

anyone use this stuff? I've been thinking about trying some...

http://www.compoil.com/

I would be willing to bet that this is just another brand of oil that they put their name on (same with the Joe Gibbs stuff)... question is "can we figure out who".

[A.T. RockDriller]

I stopped at Oreilly...Schucks....For some things today...needed a qt of oil for the '63... and found myself reading every product on the shelf.....and still not having a clue what to buy.

That sure did suck.

[81ShrtBox]

Originally Posted by A.T. RockDriller

I stopped at Oreilly...Schucks....For some things today...needed a qt of oil for the '63... and found myself reading every product on the shelf.....and still not having a clue what to buy.

That sure did suck.

Rotella T 15w 40