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10-17-2011, 07:43 PM | #1 |
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An expensive lesson learned
As many of you know this all started with a bent push rod in my SBC on the way to the Brothers truck show in July. My work schedule is pretty tight so I have not been able to dedicate a lot of time to fixing the problem.
I did not know why the rod failed because there was no piston to valve contact and there was no damaged component other than the push rod. I ended up upgrading the valve springs and push rods, converted to threaded rocker studs and guide plates. I then wanted to inspect the timing chain to make sure it did not slip a tooth, the timing chain has about 1/2 inch slop in it, but has not slipped. The one thing that made my heart sink was when I pulled the pan on my 14,000 mi crate motor there was all kinds of microscopic shavings in the bottom. Almost looked like graphite, until you get a magnet next to it and the slivers stand on end. Now I am looking at a complete rebuild. The main bearings are shot and I am now tearing it all down to a bare block. The reason I am posting this in the general discussion and not the engine forum is because I was not planing on touching the engine during my build, it was the newest part on the truck when I started. But when it failed I when into investigation mode to figure out why it died after only 14,000 miles. As a warning for all you guys out there who think motor oil is motor oil, take it from me and my expensive lesson, that they are not. I have run most of my vehicles on Mobil One so that is what I put in the C10. After about 6 months I started hearing stories about the zinc content in the modern oils, and I thought that well I will just finish this round with the synthetic and then change to something else. Well it did not make it that far and I am paying heavily for it. The modern engines of today come standard with roller rockers and lifters, therefore the motor oil companies have reduced the zinc in the oil which helps lubricate the cam and lifters. Check the zinc in your oil. I am fortunate to live right down the road from Crower racing products and they do a lot of testing on motor oil. Just talked to them today and they said that they do not recommend any synthetic oils on flat tappet engines because they cannot guarantee damage will not occur.
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10-17-2011, 08:03 PM | #2 |
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Are you saying the shavings are from the cam lobes?
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10-17-2011, 08:08 PM | #3 |
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Yep not the first time I've heard this. Same thing happened to a buddy's brand new big block with lots of $$$ into it.
http://www.zddplus.com/
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68 CST SWB - Gold/White 50th anniversary /TH350/Buddy Buckets/3.73 Posi/dogdish caps. 68 K10 Burb - Gold/White 327/SM465/NP205/3.73 "Daa Burb" build thread Last edited by Mt Man Chad; 10-17-2011 at 09:07 PM. |
10-17-2011, 08:17 PM | #4 |
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
I use Mobil 1 along with a zddp additive.
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10-17-2011, 08:59 PM | #5 |
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Happened to me once also bud, it sucks.
In any of my flat tappet engines I run Valvoline VR1 now, it has plenty of zddp in it.
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10-17-2011, 08:59 PM | #6 |
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Always works in my rigs!
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10-17-2011, 09:02 PM | #7 |
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
I don't mean to be negative, but I'd tend to place more suspicion on the engine build than a particular brand of oil. Be interested to hear what you find out when you tear it down. Whatever the cause, I feel your pain. That sucks.
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10-17-2011, 09:26 PM | #8 |
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
I posted this before from Crower:
Use of Synthetic Oils Crower does not recommend the use of synthetic motor oil in any application, particularly in hydraulic and flat tappet camshafts. If your car manufacturer's owners manual suggests running synthetic oil, you may do so. The minimum gains in horsepower are offset by the excessive wear to cam and lifter surfaces. We have found that the benefits, of synthetic motor oil, do not outweigh the costs and may endanger your engine's life. Crower recommends a non-detergent / race only petroleum based 30wt. motor oil in all performance applications. The lack of phosphorus and zinc in current oil blends is catastrophic to engine longevity. For all applications we do recommend running our ZDDPlus additive, which adds zinc and phosphorus back into the oil. For additional information on oil, click here! http://www.crower.com/faq/#h |
10-17-2011, 11:17 PM | #9 | |
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Quote:
I am upgrading it all to roller everything so I never have to worry about zinc again.
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10-18-2011, 08:26 AM | #10 | |
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Quote:
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10-18-2011, 11:11 AM | #11 |
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
I believe that Mobil has a synthetic that still carries the zinc of the older spec oils. I will have to look and try to find where I read that to post here. Synthetic isn't the problem it is the lack of the zinc, all oils currently sold out of the regular retail stores lack the zinc needed for scrubber cams. I use either Diesel (rotello) oil or add a can of STP (still has the zinc), one day I will make the switch to a roller cam engine but for now it is additive.
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10-18-2011, 11:18 AM | #12 |
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Happened to my BBC after 15 miles on the motor, I have a roller cam now. hate you had the same problem.
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10-18-2011, 11:39 AM | #13 |
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
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10-18-2011, 11:56 AM | #14 | |
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Quote:
Have heard this story many times on other boards. Some don't have problems. Some kill the engine in 20 miles. Sorry for the loss.
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10-18-2011, 12:01 PM | #15 |
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Thank you for posting this. Hopefully it will save someone else. It still surprises me that with every example of this issue, there are those who read the evidence and still think you can run a flat tappet cam without zinc in the oil.
It's not just the evolution of roller motors in modern vehicles that has resulted in the removal of zinc from motor oil. A roller motor will survive just fine with zinc in the oil. The EPA wants heavy metals out of the oil. This is something that is changing daily. Even if your oil of choice had zinc in it last time you purchased it, check the label the next time you buy it. it also depends on where you live. Here in TX we can still buy VR1 off the shelf. not sure you can do that in CA.
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10-18-2011, 12:05 PM | #16 |
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
MAgazines have been harping on this for a couple years now.
I thought it was pretty common knowledge at this point that if you are running a flat tappet cam, you need to add zinc or find some specialty oil with it still in it. I 'm using Brad Penn Green oil in my flat tappet motor.
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10-18-2011, 12:19 PM | #17 |
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
From a Corvette forum, regarding VR-1: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...ht-it-was.html
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10-18-2011, 01:33 PM | #18 |
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Thanks for the heads up...sorry it had to come at such cost to you though.
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10-18-2011, 01:36 PM | #19 |
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
That's what I run in flat tappet motors as well.
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10-18-2011, 02:02 PM | #20 |
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
1) Which gm crate engine is this?
a) Are you positive that the oil caused the problem?; i have a crate engine horror story as well which i can refer if/when i find the link. i'm still not totally sure what caused the rod to bend, but it started with a bent pushrod as well. You may already be familiar with my story but i will try to find the link anyways. 2) NOTE: i use redline synthetic because this is one of the few oils i can find that has enough zddp in it because all my cars have flat lifters. |
10-18-2011, 02:08 PM | #21 | |
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Quote:
You stated earlier you use Mobil 1 with an additive. Which additive do you use? Mine is the original motor that came in my truck, not high RPM build. Thanks. BTW, everyone with a flat tappet build should read that thread!
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10-18-2011, 02:14 PM | #22 |
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
Damn sure don't want to have to tear this down after 14,000 miles!
Sorry for the highjack and sorry about your engine trouble but you may have just saved me from the same fate. Thanks.
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70 GMC Short Stepside "Rose"-An American Beauty: Factory 402/TH400, AM/FM, AC, Tilt, Tach, Buckets, Posi, PS, PB, 3-5 Drop, Complete Resto-Rod 67 C-20 Slant Back Wrecker "Mad Max" 67 C-10 Ratrod "Step-N-Wolf" 71 Serro Scotty Sportsman camper "Scotty" 97 LT1 Z28 "The Hornet" Link to more pics of "Rose" http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/a...p?albumid=1684 Check out my "Cheap Tricks" thread and add to it if you can, lots of good info there. http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=489394 |
10-18-2011, 02:42 PM | #23 |
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
I use ZDDPlus additive. From what I have read, STP will also work. Some folks also use GM break-in lube because of the high zinc content.
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10-18-2011, 02:46 PM | #24 |
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
And, it seems just about everyone is selling 'break in oil' with added zinc now as well.
There are plenty of options out there, you just gotta look at the labels.
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10-18-2011, 04:20 PM | #25 |
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Re: An expensive lesson learned
I've been saying this for years now, but no one realy listens. Additives don't work very well, as the modern oils drasticaly reduce there effectiveness. There are two ways around this problem that I have found. Use a racing/off road use ony oil such as Joe Gibbs racing oil, or go full roller on you engine. Full roller is my choice, as that is one of the main reason modern engines are able to rack up so manny miles without trouble. As a mechanic I regularly see engines with 200,000 plus on them, and still running fine.
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