Tow Ratings. Need some direction..

[hick]

Howdy all,


LONG time lurker but I am getting ready to tear into my truck to start building it into my DD work truck but I have been presented with a road block...

More often then not I have a trailer on. Every thing from hauling cars, bob cat to a fully loaded stock trailer or even bales on a flat deck...

Right now I have a 89 crew cab dally whos GVRW completely escapes me... But is peanuts compared to modern trucks. Which presents me with a couple options I am just unsure of what direction to go as its the first step so I am looking for some insight.

A. Box the entire frame when I do a motor swap (cummins)

B. frame swap the sheet metal to something newer. F 450 comes to mind ( I know i know ford... Bt it's the best option). This gives me 4x4 with a solid axle. Big ass brakes, etc... But I kind of was hoping to go to srw, but it's not a deal breaker...

C. Buy a C70 and swapthe sheet metal onto that frame, sas, etc and have live with the look of such a big frame under the cab of my truck while trying to keep the "one ton look" as opposed to the top kick look

I am not a fan of dangerously overloading my truck, and I want to be able to handle at least 20k lbs (most fifth wheel campers when fully loaded these days). I don't see boxing my frame getting this... Nor am I looking to build a "top kick" either

I need to make this decision before I move forward cause its the starting point...

Your thoughts are much appreciated,

Scott
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[JPalmer81]

here are your tow ratings:

GCWR 16,000lbs; 19,000 with 4.56/5.13 axle.
GVWR is 10,000lbs
Max towing with bumper is 10,000lbs
Max 5th wheel towing is 11,000lbs and a 4.56 is 14,000lbs
Max payload is 5150lbs

All this info came from an old thread on this site, you may wanna check it out:
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=348806

If it were me I would call it good, but I am sure you would be able to tow anything you wanted if you boxed the frame in, and sounds like the easiest of all your options you have.

hope this helps.

[Edahall]

Your frame is not the weak link on your truck. It is more than enough to handle the extra weight of the Cummins without boxing it in. The weak link for being able to handle 20k lbs is brakes and a transmission not having enough gears.

Here are some things you could do to make it better able to handle / tow at least 20k lbs.

-12 Valve Cummins swap
-Intercooler out of a new body style 7.3 Ford PSD
-Strong transmission such as an NV5600
-Gear Vendors / gear splitter
-Exhaust brake
-Swap in 3.73 rear axle out of a Duramax Chevy
-Air helper springs
-Rear sway bars if you don't already got them
-Bigger brakes
-4 core radiator
-Heavy duty 10 ply tires

[JPalmer81]

Not to hijack this thread from you Hick, but this will probably help you out too. Edahall, if you go with bigger brakes, will the stock 16" or 16.5" wheels still clear them or would you have to upgrade your wheels to a bigger diameter?

And i agree with Edahall about the frame, these frames for the 1 ton trucks are oversized as it is, its some of the other components like Edahall mentioned that you need to be focused on for hauling that kind of weight on a regular basis.

[Edahall]

Originally Posted by JPalmer81

Not to hijack this thread from you Hick, but this will probably help you out too. Edahall, if you go with bigger brakes, will the stock 16" or 16.5" wheels still clear them or would you have to upgrade your wheels to a bigger diameter?

And i agree with Edahall about the frame, these frames for the 1 ton trucks are oversized as it is, its some of the other components like Edahall mentioned that you need to be focused on for hauling that kind of weight on a regular basis.

Good question JPalmer. To be honest, I really don't know. I do know that 17" wheels and tires are now the standard size on new 3/4 and 1 ton trucks. I thought it was all about styling but you've got a point about brakes. That said, I bought a set of stock Chevy truck 17" wheels and tires for my 1990 Suburban for a good price very recently. Since they are 265/70/17 vs 305/70/16, the overall diameter is slightly smaller but there is slightly more room for bigger brakes.

Don't you need a CDL in many states to tow over 15k lbs?

[JPalmer81]

I think the brakes should be the main thing to look into for your needs Hick, with low gears you can pretty much get any amount of weight rolling, its the stopping that is the problem, and I can't even imaging trying to stop anything weighing 20,000 lbs! I have never even came close to that figure.

I would just make sure you have some good brakes on your truck to handle the weight and some good brakes on your trailer to handle the weight and you should be fine.

And I don't know what kind of 5th wheel travel trailer you are hauling, but 20,000 lbs seems a little steep to me. I am thinking more like 10,000 lbs for a really heavy one.

[hick]

Originally Posted by Edahall

Your frame is not the weak link on your truck. It is more than enough to handle the extra weight of the Cummins without boxing it in. The weak link for being able to handle 20k lbs is brakes and a transmission not having enough gears.

Here are some things you could do to make it better able to handle / tow at least 20k lbs.

-12 Valve Cummins swap
-Intercooler out of a new body style 7.3 Ford PSD
-Strong transmission such as an NV5600
-Gear Vendors / gear splitter
-Exhaust brake
-Swap in 3.73 rear axle out of a Duramax Chevy
-Air helper springs
-Rear sway bars if you don't already got them
-Bigger brakes
-4 core radiator
-Heavy duty 10 ply tires

Thanks for the replies guys... A lot more then I was expecting...

I am relieved to hear this as I was pretty bummed when I made this realization. I had the same thoughts as you guys but I saw the new GM commercial with them advertising 23k iirc towing capacity and it got me to thinking "there is no way my 30 year old truck (Its only an 89 but I think the frame technology is at least 30years old) can handle that"... And well you on how things kind of get away from you when you start rolling them around in your head cause I have no one else to really bounce my thoughts off of....

Funny enough though, but your list is EXACTLY what I have planned. Right down to the new Chevy axle for gearing...

Brakes are must for 20k I do know that. I have my commercial license so 63k kg/ 138k lbs is what i am used to.

20k might have been a touch high but it very very close. Consider this.

I do not own this trailer but I have intentions of, or either a tandem axle fifth wheel with another bumper pull behind it, so I used it to get my number...



The trailer it elf, unloaded in 13k alone. The GVRW is 19k, which would not be hard to get to. 2 Polaris 800 sport men's are almost 1k each. By the time you factor in your water tank, tools, equipment, a 3rd quad, every thing that goes into the trailer it self, fuel (these trailer have an on board fuel tank), that 19k comes very quickly. Then on top of the trailer weight it self, I still have a 100 gallon tidy tank it the box of my truck, 4-6 ppl (if it's me and the boys for the week that's and easy 200 per guy).... Oh and maybe a boat, if I fall within the length limit, but up here in my province it's no HIGHLY enforced

You also bring up another point for needing a CDL for over a certain weight... Granted I have it, and I am sure any state trooper would recognize my Canadian license... But what concerns me is a DOT who's got half a brain realizing that there is no way my truck is legally pulling a trailer like that going down the free way. Recreational vehicles are exempt from weight station up here and may be down there to... But that won't stop them from making my life a living hell... That's one of the reasons I kind of started pipe dreaming about a f450 frame swap. Despite a different body I and legally allowed to be pulling that much weight... Kind of see where I am going with this...i don't mind beneing the rules... I just make sure I can deal with getting caught.

What are yours thoughts on boxin the entire frame. In the cummins forum I am pastor one of the guys asked about doing it to his ford and all the ford guys said "no, our frames are not designed to be that rigid and will even up cracking/stressing". I was going to box the frame in the front for the sake of the motor (I have a heavy heavy right foot and with a juiced up cummins I'd prefer to be on the safe side), but the whole frame?
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[hick]

For some reason my link didn't work...

http://www.kz-rv.com/stoneridge-spor...fications.html
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[JPalmer81]

I have read a lot of Cummins swaps on this site and I don't think any of them boxed the frame in. Edahall did a Cummins swap in his suburban, so he would be the guy to give you good advice on it. But like I said, your frame is a very stout frame already, and I think it can handle all of the weight you could put on it. You might want to add a couple helper springs up front to take on the extra weight of the Cummins though, but I don't think it is necessary. Just my $.02 though.

[hick]

Yah I haven't decided one front yet. It is a 2wd now. Once I get the cummins in I am going to run it for a summer to work the bugs out then I am going to send it out for the sas.

I don't mind doing stuff my self, but some thing like a sas is WAY out of league so I'll see what the shop suggests... I don't want leafs as I am going for comfort

But one thing t a time. Now that my nerves have been calmed about this frame thing I'll swap the motor first. Now I just have to find one and I am set

Thanks guys
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[Edahall]

Boxing in a frame does make it a lot stiffer but certainly makes it more susceptible to cracking. A stiffer frame may give better ride characteristics and certainly is something that manufacturers can brag about. But strength and stiffness are two different things. When you install the Cummins, do give some clearance between the firewall and the radiator to account for a small amount of flexing. You don't need much. About 0.5" should be adequate.

>>I do not own this trailer but I have intentions of, or either a tandem axle fifth wheel with another bumper pull behind it, so I used it to get my number...

A bumper pull behind will get you in trouble faster than anything in some states such as Washington and California. You'll have to ask someone else on how picky the DOT is regarding pulling a travel trailer that is overweight for the vehicle. They probably won't care about what kinds of upgrades you've done. They'll just look at the door sticker. However from experience, I will say that most likely, as long as you're not swaying and you're keeping at a safe speed, you won't be bothered. I probably should not mention this but I once had no other choice than to use a 2 door coupe Lincoln Mark VIII rated to pull 1500 lbs to pull a trailer grossing around 7000 lbs. I drove 1500 miles from California to Texas and every cop just whizzed on by when they could have pulled me over for grossly exceeding every weight rating on that Lincoln. The only comment I got was from a trucker at a truck stop. He chuckled at how overloaded the Lincoln was but said I would be alright as long as I kept the speeds down and didn't sway. I ended up driving no more than 50 mph the whole way. This is where it felt safe. I experienced no issues during the trip and the Lincoln is still running strong even after all of that.

[Ackattack]

I will be building a crew cab tow vehicle. While I don't have quite as high tow capacity needs, same ideas apply.

However, my plan of attack is to put the crew cab body onto the dodge frame. I just got a 94 3/4t Cummins truck for this. I guess with the 5 speed and 3.54 gears its rated at 13,000 tow capacity but guys on the cummins forums have towed a lot more than that. My truck already has the rear helper air bags too. To pull off the swap, I'm going to have to lengthen the frame and build some body mounts. Other than that I don't think its going to be a hard swap and I don't have to fabricate the engine/tranny mounts.

[JPalmer81]

I would love to see some pics of that trip Edahall Beverly Hillbillies comes to mind

[JPalmer81]

Originally Posted by Ackattack

I will be building a crew cab tow vehicle. While I don't have quite as high tow capacity needs, same ideas apply.

However, my plan of attack is to put the crew cab body onto the dodge frame. I just got a 94 3/4t Cummins truck for this. I guess with the 5 speed and 3.54 gears its rated at 13,000 tow capacity but guys on the cummins forums have towed a lot more than that. My truck already has the rear helper air bags too. To pull off the swap, I'm going to have to lengthen the frame and build some body mounts. Other than that I don't think its going to be a hard swap and I don't have to fabricate the engine/tranny mounts.

Do you have a build thread for this yet? Sounds like an interesting build and I would like to see it.

[v30crewcab]

i've never had a problem out of the frame of my truck when towing. mostly just need more brakes. would love to upgrade the d60 rotors to bigger in the front one day. my buddy has a cummins in a crewcab like mine, and he pulls a 38ft gooseneck with is for years. no problems.

[hick]

Originally Posted by Edahall

Boxing in a frame does make it a lot stiffer but certainly makes it more susceptible to cracking. A stiffer frame may give better ride characteristics and certainly is something that manufacturers can brag about. But strength and stiffness are two different things. When you install the Cummins, do give some clearance between the firewall and the radiator to account for a small amount of flexing. You don't need much. About 0.5" should be adequate.

>>I do not own this trailer but I have intentions of, or either a tandem axle fifth wheel with another bumper pull behind it, so I used it to get my number...

A bumper pull behind will get you in trouble faster than anything in some states such as Washington and California. You'll have to ask someone else on how picky the DOT is regarding pulling a travel trailer that is overweight for the vehicle. They probably won't care about what kinds of upgrades you've done. They'll just look at the door sticker. However from experience, I will say that most likely, as long as you're not swaying and you're keeping at a safe speed, you won't be bothered. I probably should not mention this but I once had no other choice than to use a 2 door coupe Lincoln Mark VIII rated to pull 1500 lbs to pull a trailer grossing around 7000 lbs. I drove 1500 miles from California to Texas and every cop just whizzed on by when they could have pulled me over for grossly exceeding every weight rating on that Lincoln. The only comment I got was from a trucker at a truck stop. He chuckled at how overloaded the Lincoln was but said I would be alright as long as I kept the speeds down and didn't sway. I ended up driving no more than 50 mph the whole way. This is where it felt safe. I experienced no issues during the trip and the Lincoln is still running strong even after all of that.

Yah I remember when I lived in Nevada my old man and I looked into it.

,y travel to the states would be minor, nor do I think I would have a boat. That would just be for around home.

I do appreciate the reassurance, means I get that credit card out and start ordering some duff just need to figuring shop space and find me a motor. Just wanted to cover this before I gt to into if

Thanks guys
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