steering parts help needed

[flomulgator]

Hi folks,
I got an axle set that is a GM 9.5" gov lock 4.10 R&P. The guy I bought it off of said it was from a 1984 chevy pickup, I presume a K20. I've been running the gear for a couple years now but the steering is getting pretty sloppy and it's time to replace all the steering bushings and joints.

Problem is, I can't make sense of the parts. LMC Truck has two different possible applications for the tie rods for that truck, as noted here:
http://www.lmctruck.com/icatalog/cc/full.aspx?Page=149
in the lower right corner ("C" or "D"). My existing setup is the "D" setup, but it is upside down of the orientation shown in the picture (tie rod joints point up on my truck).
However, I do have a 4.10 rear end. I don't know my drum brakes, but went out and measured them and outside rim (inboard of towards axle) to outside rim is just a bit under 15". inner rim to inner rim appeared to be around 14".

Am I the "D" application or did a previous owner swap parts around?

Thanks for any help!

[Ski-me]

I would look at the steering stabilizer bolt hole to determine which one to get. As far as pointing up or down, all you would do is rotate it 180 degrees to fit. I believe the holes into the knuckles are tapered so only go in one way.

I probably recommend getting some Moog replacement parts instead of LMC. I've gotten quite a bit a Autozone and O'Reilly's. Also got some parts off of Amazon. It's nice to go into a box and mortar store on some parts just in case they don't fit or some other issue come up during the teardown/re-install.

Front end tie-rod ends are good but also check your upper and lower ball joints. that would be good to change too (if you want to take on the job).

I think you need to pop off the rear hub and measure the width of your shoe. If I recall, it's either 2" or 2.5".

Was your truck originally a 1/2 ton or 3/4 ton?

[flomulgator]

Steering stabilizer? That connects the knuckle and the axle tube, whereas I am confused about the tie rod setup.
I looked at upper and lower ball joints and they all appeared okay. The tires don't budge when I try to wobble them in and out, but then again, they are heavy. it's the tie rod and drag link joints that are worn out. The tie rod is physically canted forward off vertical, which can't be good or right.

The truck that this running gear is actually on is a 1991 GMC diesel Suburban, V1500.

LMC lists the two tie rod applications as either with or without "13 in. rear drums and 4.10 ratio".

[Irish1941]

Your front axle should be a 10 bolt, 8.5 if it is indeed a '84 axle.
Same as 1/2 ton. No difference from 1/2 to 3/4 ton.
However...
'73-'77 D44 tie rod ends point up and '78 up D44 & 10 bolt tie rods ends point down.
Tie rod ends should be going down, grease nipple on the top and nut on bottom for '84. Taper goes only one way no matter if a D44(up) or 10 bolt (down)

As for the actual tie rod itself, can you post a photo of the LH and RH sides?
Who knows what's been swapped in...but if they point up then it's early D44 knuckles in there with later tie rod ends and adjuster.
Or might be entire early Dana 44...

As for the drag link has two different ends. LH and RH so it can be adjusted.
ES2027L & ES2026R for drag link.

And Like Jeff said, use Moog. Made in USA.

[Irish1941]

And to help clear up the difference between with 4.10 and without 4.10

Notice how with 4.10 has one long end with shorty. Stronger with less chance of being bent. Same as Dana 60 axle.



And two shorty ends and sleeve in between.

[flomulgator]

Yeah it's nearly the same in the LMC catalog. Does LMC Truck not use Moog parts?
I'm starting to think that a mismatched tie rod (the upper one) was jammed the wrong way into an axle that should have one long and one short. I'll take a picture this evening.

Front axle is specifically a GM 8.5" 10 bolt with 4.10 R&P, and 8 lug hubs. The lug count (and the R&P ratio) was the only discernible difference between this axle and the old front axle on my truck.

Thanks!!

[Ski-me]

Originally Posted by flomulgator

Yeah it's nearly the same in the LMC catalog. Does LMC Truck not use Moog parts?
I'm starting to think that a mismatched tie rod (the upper one) was jammed the wrong way into an axle that should have one long and one short. I'll take a picture this evening.

Front axle is specifically a GM 8.5" 10 bolt with 4.10 R&P, and 8 lug hubs. The lug count (and the R&P ratio) was the only discernible difference between this axle and the old front axle on my truck.

Thanks!!

They are pretty close to one another.....enough so that I took the 6 lug axle shaft, hub, rotor and calipers and bolted it straight up to an 8 lug axle (front) in order to change my gears from 3.73 to 4.10. That goes for 87-91 at least. I then put the 9.5" in the rear (4.10 gears too).

Irish helped me out quite a bit and he also did something similar. But, he did a lot of research before so he knows quite a bit of the specific details.

I'd just try some of the stuff locally...but be sure to shop between all the stores to get the lowest price. Shucks, Napa, Autozone, AdvanceAuto....etc.

[flomulgator]

So did you end up with 6 lug hubs and drum brakes on a 9.5" 4.10 rear?
The primary reason I did this axle swap was to go from 3.73 to 4.10 as well (to solve shift point and turbo boost issues), as it was much cheaper than re-gearing the diff. I was then forced to find 8 lug wheels and tires, but that was a pretty easy arm twist.
Secondary reason was going from open to gov-lock.
Third was turbo diesel torque output.

I'm still uncertain about which tie rod to buy. I'd like to just buy the "K3" tie rod that Irish says is stronger; are the eyelets on the knuckles the same? IE, will either tie rod end fit in either knuckle?

Attached are photos of my setup. In photo 2 you can clearly see how the tie rod end is angled forward.

[Ski-me]

Yes, I ended up with 6 lug axles in the end. It did take some time, work and creativity, but works well now. I pulled everything I needed from junkyard and then swapped it over to the pair of 3/4 ton suburban axles with 4.10's. My rear width axle is wider than the 1/2 ton stock and lines up pretty eavenly with the front.

My front axle has the "4,5 & 6" setup. Yours looks like the "7, 8 & 9" setup with the left side just turned up. Because it's a thicker tube, I'd probably stick with the same layout as you currently have (stronger for larger tires, I would suspect). Looks like you have probably 35's.

Irish, is it worth for me to consider swappng the larger diameter tie rod setup?

[Irish1941]

Yep, those are 2nd design Dana 44 knuckles and tie rod ends are installed correctly. You couldn't jam it in there wrong. Taper wouldn't let that happen.
As for the tilt to the tie rod, grab the tube and twist it. It's a ball and socket so it can move. If they are worn, it'll move a fair bit but that's what we're fixing!
See how driver's has a hole for stabilizer? Just order what you see. Measure to be double sure.
All GM 4wd tie rod ends are the same. 7/8" -18 shank. Don't get these confused with drag link ends. And that tie rod tube looks ok.
If it was me, I'd go have a look at WFO tie rod setups. A little more money but put it on and forget about it. I have 1.25" on my truck. All deflection is gone and handles a lot better.
http://www.wfoconcepts.com/pr/1-25x-...8-Threads/3707


Hey thanks Jeff! Always glad to help. All I got is what I know and sure don't have all the answers.
Do WFO tie rod setup. You will not regret it.

10 bolt is 10 bolt. Nothing really changed from time GM intro'd it to the last yr for solid front axle in '91, rear too for that matter.
'89-'91 went to 30 spline inner axles but outer axles stayed them same. 6 lug or 8 lug, 1/2 ton to 3/4 ton same same. Same bearings, seals, spindle etc...
Just to add to the confusion, 1st & 2nd design D44 parts bolt right on to 10 bolt as well. There are more D44 differences as well but really doesn't apply in this case.
As long as you know what you got, no matter what has been swapped on to what, you can get parts.

I have '91 Sub 3/4 ton axles under my '89 Blazer. 10 bolt front and 14bolt 9.5 out back but both axles are now 6 lug with 99.5% GM parts. Main reason is I wanted big axles out back without 500lb 14 bolt FF and really wanted to keep my 15x8 plain steel wheels.
It takes some parts collecting but yes, a 14 bolt 9.5 can be made into a 6 lug pretty easy.

[Irish1941]

Here is my WFO tie rod.
Thing is a monster compared to stock GM stuff. I used a stabilizer for a '08 Dodge 1 ton 4x4. Straight as an arrow at 70mph.

[Ski-me]

OK, just for fun now.....

When I look up 3/4 ton suburban, it lists the 7/8" but also shows a 1".

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/par...8_648138_1905_

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/par...1_648900_3152_

An it looks like they combined the two together on one end. These are identical numbers to Moog's.

With that said....I do like the 1.25 idea. Now I got to check and see what "exactly" I have. Don't remember.

Also, Irish are you running 33's?? I thought so.

[flomulgator]

Okay cool.
Irish the hyperlink doesn't work, is this the right tie-rod?
http://www.wfoconcepts.com/pr/1-25x-...8-Threads/3707
(hope that one works)
What's up with the plate and 3 u-bolt setup?

I've found some reasonably priced "HD" steering stabilizers for this axle by Skyjacker and the like, and had been considering them to firm up the steering at speed (truck wanders pretty good). Are those worth it? Did you need to upgrade or refurbish your power steering box to push around the dodge 1-ton stabilizer?

Ski-Me, my tires are metric, but very close to 33".

[Irish1941]

Originally Posted by Ski-me;6690356

[QUOTE

When I look up 3/4 ton suburban, it lists the 7/8" but also shows a 1".

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/par...8_648138_1905_

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/par...1_648900_3152_

Opps...soft brain moment. Meant the shank into knuckle is same.

7/8" is for two piece tie rod for 1/2 & 3/4 ton Moog ES2010L ES2010R
see GM Fig T6-72

1" is the heavier long, one piece tie rod for 3/4 with 4.10 or greater & D60.
Moog ES2011L ES2011R. * There is a few other numbers as well*
see GM Fig T6-60

Have a look here:
http://www.wfoconcepts.com/cr/Chevy-...3163/3204/3241

Also, Irish are you running 33's?? I thought so

Yep just 33".


[quote]

Irish the hyperlink doesn't work, is this the right tie-rod?
http://www.wfoconcepts.com/pr/1-25x-...8-Threads/3707
(hope that one works)
What's up with the plate and 3 u-bolt setup?

fixed that link...
Yep, that's it. The u bolt is the clamp for the stabilizer. Doesn't take much to hold it in place. Plus I wanted to eliminate that eye thru tie rod end. One less place for it to bend.

I've found some reasonably priced "HD" steering stabilizers for this axle by Skyjacker and the like, and had been considering them to firm up the steering at speed (truck wanders pretty good). Are those worth it? Did you need to upgrade or refurbish your power steering box to push around the dodge 1-ton stabilizer?

Nope nothing to steering box but frame is welded and I also added bolt-on stiffener. Stabilizer was just the closest in length to factory one from Bilstein. Start with fixing tie rod and other worn parts before adding a new stabilizer. Be surprised how much can change with new parts.

[russgt]

My ORD link