1963 front spindles replacements - issues!

[LuckyLightning]

Hey all, I'm hoping this is as unique as I think it is (because I searched and did not find what I needed).

I have a recently purchased '63 2WD 1/2 ton. PO started the process of swapping out the 6 lug drums for 5 lug discs. He said they are from an '88 and were bolt-in (no fabrication needed).

What he did so far:

• removed drums
• installed spindles
• installed rotors (with wheels)
• installed only one caliper (passenger side)
• original master cylinder is untouched
• brake hoses in front are cut
• upper and lower ball joints look new on both sides/wheels

I don't know much about brakes. I don't want to spend time searching for a matching caliper (I am skeptical these are 88's since everywhere I've read they are not really compatible), nor do I want to mess with finding a master cylinder to push discs/drums. Sounds like I need to find "the right combo".

I have a donor '63 so I figured it would be easier to go back to stock by just pulling the drums from the donor and use them to replace the disc spindles/rotors on the "new" truck. Install new brake hoses, bleed, and be done with it.

I see three contact points per wheel:

• upper control arm
• lower control arm
• outer tie rods

Looks like I just need to remove 3 castle nuts, decompress the spring, and remove the spindles.

Today I took a closer look at the castle nuts on the "new" truck and noticed when I turn them, the thread/bolt in the ball joint also turns? This is the case on at least one of the upper ball joints as well as with one of the outer tie rods. I was not expecting this - how can I remove the castle nuts?

I'm also reading that ball joints need to be removed. Why? It seems unnecessary. Searching youtube shows a lot of videos for how to remove, but not why.

Also, there is a lot of play in the steering wheel, and today I saw why: outer tie rods have little-to-no bushings (where it touches the spindle). I'll need to replace the tie rods since it seems the bushings alone are not sold at LMC.

I would greatly appreciate ANY help. I apologize if this is redundant (I'm sure someone has run into this before, but even in advanced search I'm not finding much of what I need).

[Captainfab]

It sounds like the PO did a half a** job for sure. It's really hard to say what someone else have thrown together. A few pics would help to ID what parts you do have. Since you are at this point, I definitely would not go back to drum brakes. A disc brake conversion is actually one of the simplest upgrades to make to one of these trucks and well worth the effort. Take a look in the FAQ section under brakes. There are a few threads in there on brake upgrades. One of them is titled "Disc Brake Upgrade Reference Thread". All you need are '71-'87 front disc brake components. And yes you will need to change the ball joints to accomodate the spindles.

I would have to agree that if those spindles are '88 spindles, I would not continue that conversion until an easy solution is found for that one.

I thought you were wanting to convert your truck to a 4x4?

[LuckyLightning]

Hey Captainfab, at this point I need to get the truck rolling (and stoping). Converting to 4x4 is down the road (or maybe will replace the brake issue or be a different truck - I'm playing it by ear [and budget]). But right now I'm leaning towards getting this truck fixed and then selling it.

I've checked the brake FAQ, and I've had the "Disc Brake Upgrade Reference Thread" page open on my computer for about a week. I've been reading (and re-reading) the "1963-1966/5 lug" section, specifically the "Parts Swap:" part of it. It's great at stating the necessities, but not really the "why" rationale. I have read elsewhere that the ball joints need to fit the spindle for proper seating, and not really the control arms (hence the need to replace the ball joints if only swapping the spindles).

But why the outer tie rod? Does the '63 not fit the '88 spindle? Currently, it just looks like the bushings for the tie rods need to be replaced. I should also note that the outer tie rods look like they are originally from the '63.

Also there is no mention about brake lines. Do the newer model brake lines fit the '73-'87/'88 spindles?

And how can these be '88 spindles? I thought they wouldn't fit? Isn't it more likely that the PO mis-stated the year model spindles came from?

I do have 2 pics, but they are just close-ups of the caliper so I could research the number on it (but no luck so far). You can at least see the upper and lower ball joints here too. I'll get more pictures today of everything else.

But really, I want to know if:
- can I just replace the spindle with the drum (understanding better now that I would need to replace the ball joints too)?
- why are the castle nuts not spinning on the thread? is it common to use loc-tite or something similar? If so, (I'm referring to the outer tie-rod here), how do I brace/hold the bold so I can get the castle nut off?

[luvbowties]

You said, "why are the castle nuts not spinning on the thread? is it common to use loc-tite or something similar? If so, (I'm referring to the outer tie-rod here), how do I brace/hold the bold so I can get the castle nut off?"...

Sounds like the tapers do not fit or match--the rod is too small for the hole; else the taper should hold the rod enough to remove castle nut. No loc-tite ever commonly used.

TO REMOVE: Most times, use of an impact wrench will work: its quickly accelerating torque usually removes the nut even if rod is not snugly held by taper. If you don't need to save the tie rods, and looking like you're determined to return to original, a couple of techniques that may work: (1)use a pickle fork to "bind" the tapered rod enough to remove castle nut; if lucky, you may still be able to save that tie rod. (2)Use a pipe wrench to twist & torque tie rod/tapered rod into enough bind to allow removal. (3)Use a high-speed dremel tool with a small-diameter, abrasive cutoff disc to slice thru castle nut. You may need to chisel the final bit.

Hope this helps. sam

[LuckyLightning]

Hi luvbowties, yes the rod definitely seems too small on the outer tie rod since it wiggles around in the spindle (hence the "play" I'm getting).

And thanks for the informative "next steps" for removal - very helpful. I don't have an impact wrench (but now may have a reason to get one), so I might need to try the pickle-fork technique.

Pictures to come soon.

[LuckyLightning]

Okay, I have pictures and video...

Outer tie-rod, driver side:


Top of outer tie-rod driver side:


Outer tie-rod passenger side, resting position:


Outer tie-rod passenger side, pushing up on it with my hand:


Top of outer tie-rod passenger side resting:


Lower ball joint passenger side:


Upper ball joint passenger side:


Lower ball joint driver side:


Upper ball joint driver side:


And here are the videos for driver side, and passenger side. It's not the best video, so I apologize in advance, but it should give you a better idea.

Hope this helps. From what I gather from everyone's feedback so far, I should be able to replace the spindles and ball joints (tie-rods were probably never replaced, hence the looseness, so they can stay) with the drums and ball joints from the donor truck.

Yes?

[66Submarine]

Dear God!!! Looks like a real "upgrade" to me. Some people...

BTW, I'm one of the daily-driver drum brake guys.

[LuckyLightning]

Well, to give the PO some credit, he did say he wasn't done with the upgrade, so maybe he meant to take care of some of these issues I'm seeing.

And thanks for the support for drum brakes. I drove my 1st '63 with drum brakes (no power) and manual steering. Each drive was like a small workout, but it was still fun to drive.

I'm curious if the ball joints look okay? On some of them, the rubber did not seem "level" but I don't know if that's okay or not.

Are the tie-rods loos just because they are not the right ones for those spindles?

[PGSigns]

Well if they are 88 spindles it has been shown they wont work. What I would do is start over. You can run drums with no problems (i have them on my 66) and just do the split on the brakes and go to a duel master cylinder either power or manual. You have to do this part for the front disc brake conversion anyway. No way I would continue down the path you are on with the parts you have.
Jimmy

[LuckyLightning]

Thanks Jimmy, I think I'll return to stock for now. I think it'll be the safest course of action.

[LuckyLightning]

Got the tie rods out... !

I had to hold the bolt with pliers on the passenger side:


And on the driver side I had to pull the tie rod to one side so the bolt would catch inside the spindle and not spin as I turned the castle nut:


I have no idea how the PO even got the castle nuts on without having to do something similar. Surely he would have realized something was amiss...

So, to be clear on the correct installation: the tie rods should be seated in the spindle so firmly that when turning the castle nut, nothing else moves? The bolts in my tie rods were moving/turning with the castle nut because they were not the right size for the spindles, correct?

Next up: ball joints!

[PGSigns]

If you go to the disc brake swap thread you will find the part on the tie rods. The taper is larger on the 73 to 87 spindles. That is why yous just sat in the holes. The boots ar also gone on yours. Looking through the pictures you also have a mix of ball joints and one of the uppers looks to be an early model and one a late model. These also has different size tapers. On one side the castle nut seems to be drawn way up and the cotter pin hole is out past the nut. If this was my truck I would rebuild the entire front end with all new and correct parts. It looks like it needs it badly.
Jimmy

[LuckyLightning]

I had read through most of the disc brake swap thread and that's where I learned about the size differences in the tie rods and ball joints. I don't have first-hand knowledge of knowing what the parts are supposed to look like, so thank you for confirming my suspicions. I have no idea how you recognize just from the pictures that my truck has a mix of ball joints - thanks for pointing that out!

[PGSigns]

Been working on cars for 40 years. Have seen a few. Just look at the lowers in your pictures. One smooth side and one spline side where it goes through the control arm. On the uppers look at how much tread comes through. No matter what else you do consider the duel resavoir master cylinder upgrade and splitting the brake system from the single line. Bad things happen when you have an issue. I wrecked the 64 when it sprung a leak and all the sudden had zero brakes. I have a 65 with the disc brake upgrade with a complete front from a 83 doner under it and also a 66 with the factory drum brakes and the upgraded master cylinder in it. So I have done it both ways. Both work well. I your first post you said you don't know much about brakes and this is a part of the truck that MUST be done right. Find some qualified help and take time to do this right no matter what path you go down.
Jimmy

[LuckyLightning]

Hey Jimmy, you're right about the brakes being important - it's why I'm seeking help here and asking a lot of questions. Appreciate your input, it's been very helpful.

[LuckyLightning]

Hey guys, I have another quick question:

You can see in the pictures of post #11 that the touter tie rod boots are gone. Classic Parts has a pair of tie rod boots in their catalog, but LMC doesn't (they sell the whole outer tie rod).

Is that boot from Classic Parts what I think it is that I need? Or should I get the outer tie rods from LMC?

Tie Rod Boots from Classic Parts:
http://www.classicparts.com/1947-91-.../#.U-l-QYBdVUk

Outer tie rods from LMC (item #1, 63-64 2WD 1/2T):
http://www.lmctruck.com/icatalog/cbe/full.aspx?Page=82

[LuckyLightning]

[luvbowties]

Originally Posted by LuckyLightning

To go back stock, look at this link. May be cheap, I did not run any numbers, plus I know zero about the vendor.

http://stores.a-resto-parts.com/1963...ith-idler-arm/


To do it right, get all these pieces in his kit, pics w/components’ names in below:$280 plus $35 shipping from above source, which I know nothing about. I do know a good online place to order from is RockAutoParts, among numerous others.*see below about buying local.

***IDLER ARM***
***OUTER LEFTHAND TIE ROD***
***OUTER RIGHTHAND TIE ROD***
***INNER LEFTHAND TIE ROD***
***INNER RIGHTHAND TIE ROD***
***LEFTHAND TIE ROD SLEEVE***
***RIGHTHAND TIE ROD SLEEVE***
***SWAY BAR FRAME BUSHING INSULATORS (2 EACH)***
***LEFTHAND UPPER BALL JOINT***
***RIGHTHAND UPPER BALL JOINT***
***LEFTHAND LOWER BALL JOINT***
***RIGHTHAND LOWER BALL JOINT***
***LEFTHAND UPPER CONTROL ARM SHAFT KIT***
***RIGHTHAND UPPER CONTROL ARM SHAFT KIT***
***LEFTHAND LOWER CONTROL ARM SHAFT KIT***
***RIGHTHAND LOWER CONTROL ARM SHAFT KIT***

Now, on the cheap, u may wanna eliminate pieces that are still good or not applicable on your donor; likely ok would be:

-the last 4 (Control Arm shaft kits)
-sway bar frame bushing isolators—likely not applicable
-tie rod sleeves

So basically you'd be buying 4 tie rods, 4 ball joints, and an idler arm (or idler arm bushing repair kit?).

NOW: *check local parts stores & compare prices w/online prices INCLUDING SHIPPING—may be best to buy local, where u can exchange some part(s) if needed. Just exchanging 1 part could eat u up in duplicated shipping costs.

Lastly, we all learn from scratch--nothing new about that. May be wise to ask a knowledgeable, friendly mechanic to come look at where you are & get his advice on which way to go--or to advise u on what is still good on your donor truck. Might be the cheapest 6-pack you ever buy!

Luck to you.
Sam

[PGSigns]

I am with Luvboties, fix it and fix it right. Your tie rods look like the came on the truck new. For a little as they cost having a good tight front end that you know is safe is well worth it.
Jimmy

[LuckyLightning]

Thanks luvbowties, that's some incredibly comprehensive - and welcome - feedback.

I guess what I'm trying to understand though, is if it's okay (standard practice?) to just replace the tie rod bushings in some cases? It seems that Classic Parts is selling them alone (and not the whole outer tie rod), but I'm not sure if I'm just reading their catalog wrong.

[66Submarine]

Originally Posted by LuckyLightning

Thanks luvbowties, that's some incredibly comprehensive - and welcome - feedback.

I guess what I'm trying to understand though, is if it's okay (standard practice?) to just replace the tie rod bushings in some cases? It seems that Classic Parts is selling them alone (and not the whole outer tie rod), but I'm not sure if I'm just reading their catalog wrong.

They aren't bushings, they are just rubber boots/seals to keep road grime out; most just replace the whole thing.

IME the control arm bushings are the first thing to fall out on these trucks; most of my trucks have original ball joints and other front end parts that are still just fine, but the control arm bushings are all shot and need to be replaced. YMMV.

If the boot was just torn/missing I personally probably wouldn't worry about the tie rod itself if it wasn't loose/worn, but your front end has been messed up by the PO; I can't say from a picture on the computer if the tie rod was somehow messed up by him or not, or if it's worn or not. The right one doesn't look very good at all (actually even looks like it was bent?). The left one looks like it's probably ok, but I can't say that without actually having it in my hand.

FWIW, Rockauto.com has the whole outer tie rod end for $6-10 (Moog for $20), which is why most just replace the whole thing.