SS braided brake lines?

[1moretoy]

Hey guys I'm getting ready to plumb the brakes on my truck and have a ? I'm up here at hot August nights in reno and see a lot of cars running SS braided lines directly off of the master cylinder. Is this okay to do? If so it would make things a lot easier for me. I was thinking about running the braided hoses with teflon inside off the master to hard lines along front cross member and down the frame to the rear. I'm running 14" c6 Zo6 brakes up front and 13" Zo6 brakes in the rear. I'm using a willwod manual master. Thanks in advance.

[Taibo]

Originally Posted by 1moretoy

Hey guys I'm getting ready to plumb the brakes on my truck and have a ? I'm up here at hot August nights in reno and see a lot of cars running SS braided lines directly off of the master cylinder. Is this okay to do? If so it would make things a lot easier for me. I was thinking about running the braided hoses with teflon inside off the master to hard lines along front cross member and down the frame to the rear. I'm running 14" c6 Zo6 brakes up front and 13" Zo6 brakes in the rear. I'm using a willwod manual master. Thanks in advance.

By teflon inside I assume you mean Aeroquip TFE hose with the stainless steel overbraid. That hose is rated for 1800 PSI and is approved by FIA, NHRA, IHRA, NASA and SCCA for use as a flexible brake line when the correct fittings are installed. Fittings are a bit pricey but that hose os OK between Master and prop valve as well as the transition from frame mounted hard line to calipers.

[1moretoy]

Yes I mean the teflon lined lines. Are -3 the most common lines? I will be adapting to 3/16 unless I should go with a bigger size.

[1moretoy]

Originally Posted by 1moretoy

Hey guys I'm getting ready to plumb the brakes on my truck and have a ? I'm up here at hot August nights in reno and see a lot of cars running SS braided lines directly off of the master cylinder. Is this okay to do? If so it would make things a lot easier for me. I was thinking about running the braided hoses with teflon inside off the master to hard lines along front cross member and down the frame to the rear. I'm running 14" c6 Zo6 brakes up front and 13" Zo6 brakes in the rear. I'm using a willwod manual master. Thanks in advance.

Anyone else have any input on this. I'll probably pull the trigger on Monday ot Tuesday.

[Taibo]

Originally Posted by 1moretoy

Yes I mean the teflon lined lines. Are -3 the most common lines? I will be adapting to 3/16 unless I should go with a bigger size.

-3 0r -4. Fittings for either size are $20.00 to $50.00 each.

[1moretoy]

Originally Posted by Taibo

-3 0r -4. Fittings for either size are $20.00 to $50.00 each.

Summit has 3/16 inverted flare x -3 an fittings for $7 ea.

[mike16]

make sure they state specifically that they not only meet DOT specs but are approved

[1moretoy]

Originally Posted by mike16

make sure they state specifically that they not only meet DOT specs but are approved

Are there any -3an brake fittings that are DOT approved?

[69 MOD]

Just my input:
Hard lines have 0 give and apply direct pressure. The braided lines will swell under pressure and won't give you a good brake feel (can also cause diminished brake pressure)
1800 psi only refers to the burst pressure...

We just replaced all the brake lines on my friends Nova he bought because of this very thing, the prior owner built it with braided lines and he had all he could do to stop when at speed because the lines swelled and didn't provide enough pressure to the calipers...and this was 4 wheel disk.

I would stick with the hard lines and buy a GOOD tubing bender, this will make your life so much easier. Sometimes expensive things are worth it.

MOD

[1moretoy]

Originally Posted by 69 MOD

Just my input:
Hard lines have 0 give and apply direct pressure. The braided lines will swell under pressure and won't give you a good brake feel (can also cause diminished brake pressure)
1800 psi only refers to the burst pressure...

We just replaced all the brake lines on my friends Nova he bought because of this very thing, the prior owner built it with braided lines and he had all he could do to stop when at speed because the lines swelled and didn't provide enough pressure to the calipers...and this was 4 wheel disk.

I would stick with the hard lines and buy a GOOD tubing bender, this will make your life so much easier. Sometimes expensive things are worth it.

MOD

Did he have rubber braided lines or ptfe braided lines?

[Taibo]

Originally Posted by 1moretoy

Summit has 3/16 inverted flare x -3 an fittings for $7 ea.

Wrong fittings for that hose ace!

[Taibo]

Originally Posted by 1moretoy

Are there any -3an brake fittings that are DOT approved?

Yes, but they are expensive, as I said earlier.

[Taibo]

Originally Posted by 69 MOD

Just my input:
Hard lines have 0 give and apply direct pressure. The braided lines will swell under pressure and won't give you a good brake feel (can also cause diminished brake pressure)
1800 psi only refers to the burst pressure...

We just replaced all the brake lines on my friends Nova he bought because of this very thing, the prior owner built it with braided lines and he had all he could do to stop when at speed because the lines swelled and didn't provide enough pressure to the calipers...and this was 4 wheel disk.

I would stick with the hard lines and buy a GOOD tubing bender, this will make your life so much easier. Sometimes expensive things are worth it.

MOD

Your friend used the wrong hose! The correct hose has a working pressure of 1800 PSI, not a burst pressure of 1800 and they do not expand. The hose and fittings are SCCA, IMSA, NASA, and FAI approved for brake applications and carry a DOT rating. Not all braided hoses are the same and if you use the wrong ones you get problems. There are several types, ARH, FC, FBN, FBS, FBU, FBF, FBV and TFE. Each has a fitting that fits only that hose type and only one type is for brakes. Summit racing does not carry the correct hose or fittings for braking applications.

[69 MOD]

Originally Posted by Taibo

Your friend used the wrong hose!

My friend bought the car that way if you read the post, and when making a call to Mfg. they agreed not to use braided for brake lines.

Like I stated this is my opinion and what I experienced.
It's not up to me what he puts on the truck, he was asking for peoples input and I shared mine.

MOD

[volksworld]

reason the dot doesnt like braided stainless lines is they are not as flexible as rubber and they feel they will fail from repeated bending at the point where the hose enters the fitting...some "dot approved" lines had additional brackets to try to prevent them from flexing in that area...kinda like putting an external spring on the end of an air line or garden hose...way back when i had to go to aeroquip to get the real stuff....money-is-no-object sprint cup cars still use metal hard lines,but that might be a rulebook deal

[Ruscal]

I would think any hose would expand more than steel tube, even with ss braid. Steel tube is easy to work with, lays against the frame nicely and is easy to anchor. SS braid hose is bulky, and abrades any other materials it comes into contact with like a saw. Keep the hose short and use it where flexibility is needed only. A double flare kit isn't that expensive, nor is a simple bender to work the steel lines. After a little practice making lines is fun. If you don't want to invest in the tools you can pre-measure and buy lines with the ends attached, but it is harder to hit the exact length.
The SS braided lines can be ordered with DOT approval for use in the flex areas. Russell (Edelbrock) manufactures them.
Russ

[67 chevelle]

Originally Posted by Ruscal

I would think any hose would expand more than steel tube, even with ss braid. Steel tube is easy to work with, lays against the frame nicely and is easy to anchor. SS braid hose is bulky, and abrades any other materials it comes into contact with like a saw. Keep the hose short and use it where flexibility is needed only. A double flare kit isn't that expensive, nor is a simple bender to work the steel lines. After a little practice making lines is fun. If you don't want to invest in the tools you can pre-measure and buy lines with the ends attached, but it is harder to hit the exact length.
The SS braided lines can be ordered with DOT approval for use in the flex areas. Russell (Edelbrock) manufactures them.
Russ

Spot on ,, great advice

[1moretoy]

Is a flex loop necessary off of the master? I bought a pair of tubing benders but can't figure out how to make a loop. My thought on using the flex lines would help with the movement between the cab and the frame. I am using SS brake line tubing if it matters.

[Taibo]

Originally Posted by 1moretoy

Is a flex loop necessary off of the master? I bought a pair of tubing benders but can't figure out how to make a loop. My thought on using the flex lines would help with the movement between the cab and the frame. I am using SS brake line tubing if it matters.

Only in hard lines. It's purpose is to keep the tubing from work hardening from vibration. Stainless tube is MUCH harder than mild steel and will work harden much more quickly in the same spot. The flex line will not crack from work hardening like hard lines do so it is a good transition from hard line mounted on the firewall to hard line on the frame.

[special-K]

Your best way to go is formed hard lines. Done properly, such as how OEM does, vibration is a non-issue. That's why there are trucks out there with original hard lines after 40+ years. Start engineering your truck your way and you are on your own with an unknown end. Go with tried and true and you know it works before you start. It's a better look and shows craftsmanship, rather than you took the easy route. Save upgrading/altering for what needs improvement. Brakes are important

[ptc]

The SS flex lines are for use at each wheel, its a short whip usually 12" or less to allow flex for the movement of the suspension. Not at the Master.

The ss lines (teflon lined) will not expand and will not degrade and burst like rubber lines. as mentioned they are used in all forms of racing.

Look for EARLS or Wilwood fittings, they have DOT approved fittings in -3 and -4 AN sizes. and they also have adapters to inverted flare fittings if you are going from rigid lines to flex AN. Wilwood sells complete kits made for any car model. I think EARLS does too.

[1moretoy]

Originally Posted by Taibo

Only in hard lines. It's purpose is to keep the tubing from work hardening from vibration. Stainless tube is MUCH harder than mild steel and will work harden much more quickly in the same spot. The flex line will not crack from work hardening like hard lines do so it is a good transition from hard line mounted on the firewall to hard line on the frame.

Any tips or tricks on how to bend a loop in a 3/16 SS hard line?

[mike16]

there are braided flex lines that are DOT approved and yes, of course they are MORE expensive. but that is of no importance. Any brake line used on vehicles on our roads Must be DOT approved. Several vendors sell stainless flex lines


and evade the whole DOT issue

The ones that sell DOT approved lines. they promote it as such and should

shame shame shame on the rest who sell those lines with an implied suggestion that they are lawfully permittted on our roads. They are NOT and the full weight of responsability lay entirely with the owner of the vehicle to ensure his vehicle comply with the rules. just like trucks. It means nothing that they are "safer" just because they are shiney. If they are not DOT approved they have no place on any vehicle on our roads. Shiney bells and whistles mean nothing

if you get in an acccident and brakes are a cause you will go down hard.

[Ruscal]

Originally Posted by 1moretoy

Is a flex loop necessary off of the master? I bought a pair of tubing benders but can't figure out how to make a loop. My thought on using the flex lines would help with the movement between the cab and the frame. I am using SS brake line tubing if it matters.

Today it seems a lot of vehicles skip the flex loops. The steel tube is pretty flexy as is, so the extra loop may not be required to stop fatigue cracking. That said, I did put loops on my brake lines on my new build. It couldn't hurt.
As for technique for forming the loops, for 3/16" you can form the loops using any cylinder shaped object to work the tube around. It resists flattening or kinking pretty well. On 1/4" lines or above it helps to form the tube over dies that hold the sides of the tube from widening when rolled in a tight radius. My truck has 1/4" lines going to the rear brakes. I formed the loops using a hand tubing bender's die, but used my hands to wrap the tube into full 360 circles. It was awkward, but did the job. The 1/4" is more prone to flattening and kinking, thus the use of the die.
Russ