shaking all over the place?

[[JP]]

So.. have had my 65 C10 since Christmas and havent managed to have a proper drive yet!
mine has a 69 350 Buick engine in it, and I've been having running problems with the timing not staying steady on idle, just moves above from 4deg to 0, fluctuates now and again..
and when driving, if you are steady with it its fine.... then you give it some flat pedal accelaration, the truck flies with loads of power and then starts to cough up....
I have to ease off the power and then slowly accelarate, almost waiting for it to 'catch up'

I have one of those micro 12S fuel pumps, dont know how noise those things are but mine I can hear it in the cab! are they supposed to be that noisy? what about fuel delivery? does this look right? because from what I've described above it almost feels like fuel starvation and the pump seems to just dribble?

Fuel flow... - YouTube

anyway, that is kind of being sorted, but today on the last test drive, it all went wrong.
suddenly there was this shaking, almost like when you have a flat tyre, flump, flump, flump....
didnt shake me inside it or felt it on the steering wheel, my friend who was with me said it felt like something at the back, so we got home and put the axle stands on and found there's no play on the passender side, but the driver side I have this much play?

is this bad? could have this been the cause? how do I go about fixing it...?

C10 axle play - YouTube

thanks!
JP

[Wrenchbender Ret]

Yes. It sounds like a fuel delivery problem. Many vehicles have bag on the intake tube inside the tank. They get plugged & cause this. For one thing the plastic fuel filter looks to be hooked up backwards. I douht if this would cause the problem though. They never do seem to fill up for some silly reason. You could check the fuel pump pressure & delivery rate. Take the line off at the carb & put it in a cup. Run the engine on the gas in the carb. It should put out 6-8 ounces in 20-30 seconds.
It seems you may have something going on in the rear end. Pull the cover & see what is happening. Your spider gear shaft may have come loose.

[Brad54]

An old guy once told me that 90-percent of fuel problems are electrical, and I have yet to prove him wrong.

Your timing shouldn't be jumping around--that tells me your distributor is worn out.

I've had vibrations on the road that seemed to be RPM related, and it turned out to be worn out shocks. Took me a long time to chase that one down.

Not sure what to tell you about the axle play. It's been a LONG time since I've been into a C-clip rear end, and I forget how much play there is supposed to be, and how it all goes together.

-Brad

[60chevyjim]

did you have the vacuum to the distributer disconnected when you tested it ?
if you did then take the cap off of the distributer ,
then turn the crank shaft pulley back and forth
watch the distributer to see if it moves the same as when you move the crank pulley.
if not the timing chain is most likely stretched .
that would cause the timing to move around .

the side play in the rear axel shouldn't cause a vibration .

[dracko]

IIRC there is a big fat bolt/pin that slides between the axle ends after you put the C clips on the axle ends. Maybe that backed out ? Check the U joints lately?


Def pull the cover and let us know.

[[JP]]

Originally Posted by Wrenchbender Ret

Yes. It sounds like a fuel delivery problem. Many vehicles have bag on the intake tube inside the tank. They get plugged & cause this. For one thing the plastic fuel filter looks to be hooked up backwards. I douht if this would cause the problem though. They never do seem to fill up for some silly reason. You could check the fuel pump pressure & delivery rate. Take the line off at the carb & put it in a cup. Run the engine on the gas in the carb. It should put out 6-8 ounces in 20-30 seconds.
It seems you may have something going on in the rear end. Pull the cover & see what is happening. Your spider gear shaft may have come loose.

You are not the first to mention the fuel filter... someone else in another forum just replied the same.
I shall investigate it. Do you know what size hole it should be, just in case I have a filter that can't deliver enough?
I'll try that test you mention into a cup. Thanks!

Originally Posted by Brad54

An old guy once told me that 90-percent of fuel problems are electrical, and I have yet to prove him wrong.

Your timing shouldn't be jumping around--that tells me your distributor is worn out.

I've had vibrations on the road that seemed to be RPM related, and it turned out to be worn out shocks. Took me a long time to chase that one down.

Not sure what to tell you about the axle play. It's been a LONG time since I've been into a C-clip rear end, and I forget how much play there is supposed to be, and how it all goes together.

-Brad

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll check for worn bushs or something missing could well been thar. But the road was pretty flat and even at low speed I could hear/feel it. It really felt like having a flat tyre.

Originally Posted by 60chevyjim

did you have the vacuum to the distributer disconnected when you tested it ?
if you did then take the cap off of the distributer ,
then turn the crank shaft pulley back and forth
watch the distributer to see if it moves the same as when you move the crank pulley.
if not the timing chain is most likely stretched .
that would cause the timing to move around .

the side play in the rear axel shouldn't cause a vibration .

Someone asked me to test that a few days ago as they also said could be timing chain.
So what I've done was crank by hand till I was at TDC, then look at the rotor and move the engine backwards till I see the rotor move the other day.
There's a little bit of slack, it moves 1deg before the rotor starts moving.

Is that bad or negligible? Being so little?

Thanks all for your suggestions!
Getting frustrated but I know it's part of this game.
Bought the truck on the 8th of September and haven't managed to drive it properly... of course the seller forgot to.mention all the little problems...

[[JP]]

Originally Posted by dracko

IIRC there is a big fat bolt/pin that slides between the axle ends after you put the C clips on the axle ends. Maybe that backed out ? Check the U joints lately?


Def pull the cover and let us know.

Damn... is there a diagram somewhere?
I don't even have a manual because the damn thing is so big it costs more to post to the UK than buying it

[dracko]

Well you'd just drain the diff and pop the cover. You will know immediately if something has come loose. But unless there is noise when you turn the axle by hand, I'm not sure it's worth it. I think that end play in the axle is normal. Mine was similar last time I rebuilt the brakes.

Check youtube for some good tutorials on c clip rear differential inspection

Try jacking up the truck some and resting the rear frame on jack stands and tires still on ground, then grab the driveshaft and try to shake it. This will let you know if you have a worn u-joint.

[[JP]]

Done that
I used to have land rovers, which is similar with transfer box, props and half shafts.

So that's exactly what I done when I got home.
Got it off the floor on axles stands.

Can turn easily by hand just using the drum studs, no resistance and no crunching.
Banged it in neutral and there's no play on the UJs or propshaft, no up and down movement or side ways. There's a little slack when going from clockwise to counter - clockwise, but I believe this is to expect and negligible.

Land rovers used to have an oil drain for the axle, do these have one? Or is it a case of taking the rear cover off to drain the oil?
What oil goes in there? Just standard diff oil I guess?

[dracko]

Okay good stuff.

There'll be two 1/2" threaded plugs, one is a drain, one is a fill hole, fill the diff to that higher hole with fresh 80-90 gear oil after inspection.

[[JP]]

Ah! So there is a drain!! Need to look better tomorrow! Thanks!

[chevy_mike]

Originally Posted by [JP]

Ah! So there is a drain!! Need to look better tomorrow! Thanks!

If this is a factory 12 bolt rear end and stock diff cover, there is no drain hole, sorry to say.

[[JP]]

Hi yes it is a 12 bolt axle.
So I guess the only way to change the oil is by undoing the rear cover then?

I know there's oil in there as I had a look through the fill plug...not sure how healthy the oil is.

So by the sounds of what you guys are saying seems unlikely it's going to be the axle causing all the shake feeling I had....

[chevy_mike]

Do you have a two piece driveshaft? If so, the center carrier bearing would be my guess.

[urmyboyblue]

As for the axle, as long as there isn't any radial play, or clunking in the rear (indicating the cross shaft came out), should be fine. The cross shaft coming out could be the cause of your noise and add to the axial play of the axle.

I would rebuild the distributor- it is hopefully worn if you have timing jumping around. The other option is that the cam could be walking back and forth which will show the same thing.

Replace the fuel pump and filter- make sure the orientation is correct.

Look at your tires and check the front end if you think the noise came from the front end.

[Paul Y]

Jp,

Always difficult to diagnose from afar but the filter looks a little grubby.

Have you taken the top of the carb off to check what the float bowls look like? It sounds as if the roughness and having to wait for the engine to catch up could be a fuel problem, especially looking at the filter.

Always best to start with the easy stuff first, if you take the filter off can you blow through it easily? Electric pump? If you have the hose disconnected from the carb and in a catch can is it a good flow and pressure?

Sounds like you have a dial back timing light, are you checking the timing at idle or total at revs?.

Might be worth pulling the plugs to get an idea of if your engine is running lean.

Just a few ideas, excuse me if you have already checked.

P.

[[JP]]

Originally Posted by urmyboyblue

As for the axle, as long as there isn't any radial play, or clunking in the rear (indicating the cross shaft came out), should be fine. The cross shaft coming out could be the cause of your noise and add to the axial play of the axle.

I would rebuild the distributor- it is hopefully worn if you have timing jumping around. The other option is that the cam could be walking back and forth which will show the same thing.

Replace the fuel pump and filter- make sure the orientation is correct.

Look at your tires and check the front end if you think the noise came from the front end.

thanks for the suggestions, I have the day off work today so I'm going to open up the axle and see what's going on in there. Not a clue where I'll get a gasket from, but more than likely will have to wait a week or so for a company to order one from the US as can't seem to find a place that stocks any parts.

Originally Posted by Paul Y

Jp,

Always difficult to diagnose from afar but the filter looks a little grubby.

Have you taken the top of the carb off to check what the float bowls look like? It sounds as if the roughness and having to wait for the engine to catch up could be a fuel problem, especially looking at the filter.

Always best to start with the easy stuff first, if you take the filter off can you blow through it easily? Electric pump? If you have the hose disconnected from the carb and in a catch can is it a good flow and pressure?

Sounds like you have a dial back timing light, are you checking the timing at idle or total at revs?.

Might be worth pulling the plugs to get an idea of if your engine is running lean.

Just a few ideas, excuse me if you have already checked.

P.

Hi Paul, not havent taken the carb apart because its a pain to find gaskets here.
did adjust the bowl height as per Holley website video instructions.

The plugs are brand new, as well as points and condensor, put them in yesterday.

I have a normal standard timing light, I'm looking at the timing on idle.

[[JP]]

right, so been out today again and taken the cover off. All looks fine to me in there, the C clips are in place, everything turns smoothly...
but that play I've shown on the video still bugs me.... is there a way to get rid of that play? the other side has no play at all
found a bit of metal inside, but its very thin, all crumpled up. is there anything inside that might have come loose like a washer or a lock tab or something like that?

Also looks like the previous owner has welded the tie rod for some reason..? the bush at the end doesnt look great either, would that much being the way it is cause a shake?







you can see the little bit of metal lodge at the top left






So... all looks good inside?

is there a way to tighten up something to get rid of that play?

[Vinceg]

Hey JP,
1. As far as the fuel goes is it an in cab tank or a relocated tank? My 63 in cab tank was having all kinds of fuel problems till I pulled the tank and had it lined. The fuel had that rusty tinge to it and it screwed with everything. I was blown away by how much crud was actually in the tank. They are bad for it. Once the tank was cleaned I purge the lines and pump replaced the filter and went through the carb. It ran awesome after that.
2. How do your tires look? Does the shake speed up and slow down? If all your driveline looks good I would pull the tires and have them checked. Tires can separate pretty easy or loose weights and become un balanced. I've had old tires separate and it is hard to tell till you see it spinning on a wheel balancer.

Hope you get things straightened out and can enjoy some hassle free driving.
Good luck

[[JP]]

Hi Vinceg,

My tank is a beer keg in the bed, alluminium, so.. maybe not the rust? It seems like the consensus on this forum and others is that the fuel filter in and outlet might be too small for the engine as its only like 3mm. So i've been advised to try going for something bigger like 6mm.

On regards to the tyres, they are pretty new, its running 18s on the front and 20s on the rear. Not my think really, but came from the US like this. waiting for a set of 15s which should be here in a couple of weeks.
I'll look at the weights though! good shout!

The reason I think could be something drive train related was because all i've been driving about is flooring it (because of the running problem) it started to shake after I had floored it and then probably 1 mile steady 40mph and it started to shake.

thanks!

[padresag]

make sure that all of your spark plug wires are on.
ron

[[JP]]

yes I believe them to be all on, at least the old plugs I pulled yesterday they were all a bit black, so I think that makes it they are all working and getting spark?

in this video here, towards the middle of the video, you can see the timing mark fluctuating. since playing a bit with the carb mixture it seems to be better and fluctuates only bettwen 4deg and 0deg.
But this was how it was before I put new plugs and new points and played with the mixture a bit.

C10 350 Buick timing fluctuates after several...

[PGSigns]

You need to pull the center pin in the dif and slide the axles out. The play is a sign of a couple of things. First the grove in the axle for the c clip and or the c clip has heavy wear. The next thing is the bushings for the spider gears are worn out. The parts you have found may be what is left of them. I would pull the carrier out and clean and inspect it. Willing to bet it will need a set of bushings, maybe a spider gear if the clip has beat it up and an axle to fix this correctly. The panhard bar was lengthened to center the rear back in the truck after it was lowered. It does need new bushings.
Jimmy

[[JP]]

Originally Posted by PGSigns

You need to pull the center pin in the dif and slide the axles out. The play is a sign of a couple of things. First the grove in the axle for the c clip and or the c clip has heavy wear. The next thing is the bushings for the spider gears are worn out. The parts you have found may be what is left of them. I would pull the carrier out and clean and inspect it. Willing to bet it will need a set of bushings, maybe a spider gear if the clip has beat it up and an axle to fix this correctly. The panhard bar was lengthened to center the rear back in the truck after it was lowered. It does need new bushings.
Jimmy

Damn.. that sounds expensive!
and do you think that might be the cause of the shaking then?

[luvbowties]

Originally Posted by [JP]

right, so been out today again and taken the cover off. All looks fine to me in there, the C clips are in place, everything turns smoothly...
but that play I've shown on the video still bugs me.... is there a way to get rid of that play? the other side has no play at all
found a bit of metal inside, but its very thin, all crumpled up. is there anything inside that might have come loose like a washer or a lock tab or something like that?

Also looks like the previous owner has welded the tie rod for some reason..? the bush at the end doesnt look great either, would that much being the way it is cause a shake?







you can see the little bit of metal lodge at the top left






So... all looks good inside?

is there a way to tighten up something to get rid of that play?

Definitely sounds like some out-of-round condition, some rotational abnormality--just as has been discussed before.

Just to rule out simplicity-causes: jack up one wheel at a time, place a smooth-edged object like a block of wood to within about 1/4" of the tire tread, and rotate the tire as you watch that 1/4" distance. It should not vary in clearance much at all as tire rotates; neither should tread vary left/right very much. Would rule out an out-of-round tire, warped wheel, wheel not centered on wms, bent axle...

That chunk of meal in last picture: couldn't tell how big it actually is, as no reference. Did it come out of differential? if so, I'd check each tooth on the ring gear to see if it is a chipped ring-gear tooth. If you find one chipped, the ring gear would likely be worn as a result, causing definite noises and maybe the source of vibration also. The pin holding c-clips in place shows where 1 of the axle ends has been rubbing, in one picture, indicating(to me???) excessive play in an axle, allowing it to ride too far inward. Chipped axle spline? Axle bearing? Worn axle bearing surfaces on axle? Probably both, if 1 exists.

The worn bushing on the track bar(1st pic) would not cause shaking, only a clunking sound when metal hits metal. That welding was how a previous owner "adjusted" its length, and tho' somewhat unsightly, nothing wrong w/it mechanically.

Here comes an entirely different approach:
Better pics of the front end components might help diagnose any front end problems, however unlikely it could be the cause of your "flat tire feel". I/we would like to see better pics of the front end parts where the 'rolled' sheet metal shows up in pic #5: strange to me that no on has mentioned it before; must've been interpreted as a stray scrap that just happened to get caught up where it is in the pic? It looks almost like someone made a homemade "bushing" from a piece of sheet metal, and that bushing is working its way out: would definitely cause a crucial amount of play in steering control and could cause your shake--exaggerated with even just a bit of help from one of the other causes discussed.


Wishing I could tell you with assurance; and good luck with finding/correcting your dilemma as efficiently as possible,
Sam