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04-01-2017, 07:11 PM | #1 |
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Location: Clarksville, Tn
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Intermittent starting problem
Hello all,
I've been having an intermittent starting problem with my truck. When it happens, I turn the key on, my red brake light turns on, but nothing happens (like a dead battery). However, battery is good and it doesn't always happen. The only relays I have is for the headlights. The curious thing is I can attach jumper cables, or battery charger and it'll fire right up and never give me a problem. I dont even have to allow time to charge. Its almost like I just need a little extra power for the starting. Alternator works also. Could this be a starter issue? I'm just lost as to why this happens sometimes and not consistently. I appreciate any help guys. I hate to carry a portable booster lol. This is a 70 c10 with 350/th350.
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04-01-2017, 07:39 PM | #2 |
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Re: Intermittent starting problem
Make sure all your cable connections are tight and clean including the starter and all grounds. Make sure you have a good ground from the engine to frame.
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04-01-2017, 10:04 PM | #3 |
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Re: Intermittent starting problem
Bring a test light with you from now on. The next time it happens, check the fat purple wire on the ignition switch. If it doesn't get "hot" in the start position, the contacts are worn. Is it the original ignition switch?
Also, it is a fairly common problem that the starter gets heat soaked, and the truck won't start until it cools off. I had the same problem with my '69 Camaro, but it usually happened after I had been driving it at speed, like 100+ MPH, for awhile. Since you probably had the hood up, the engine cooled off by the time the jumpers were hooked up, so it started right up. My truck has had a hot start problem for decades. I put in a reduction gear permanent magnet mini starter, a ground cable straight to the starter, and added more ground straps. It still gives me a problem, but about 3% of what it used to be like.
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~Steven '70 Chevy 3/4T Longhorn CST 402/400/3.56 Custom Camper Simi Valley, CA |
04-01-2017, 10:32 PM | #4 |
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Re: Intermittent starting problem
The ignition switch has been replaced 4-5 yrs back due to not having keys when I bought the truck. The starter I am using right now is a jegs brand mini starter, also used 4-5 yrs. I have a multi meter in the truck and will try it next time it won't start. The switch is a LMC brand and may not have been the best choice. I'll check the starter connections also
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04-01-2017, 10:57 PM | #5 |
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Re: Intermittent starting problem
your starter solenoid might be the culprit. Hold the key in the start position and have someone hit the starter with a hammer. if it starts you need a new solenoid.
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04-01-2017, 11:34 PM | #6 | |
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Re: Intermittent starting problem
Quote:
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~Steven '70 Chevy 3/4T Longhorn CST 402/400/3.56 Custom Camper Simi Valley, CA |
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04-02-2017, 07:48 PM | #7 |
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Re: Intermittent starting problem
I questioned the heat issue myself, having dealt with this in a camaro I used to have. However, this doesn't happen only when hot, there's almost no rhyme or reason as to when she'll decide not to start. Like mentioned previously, I did find it awful strange that merely putting jump/charger to it will fire it right up. I'm thinking the issue is limited to the ignition, wire to the starter, and starter/solenoid itself.
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04-02-2017, 08:16 PM | #8 |
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Re: Intermittent starting problem
OK, maybe a dead spot or a dirty contact on the starter armature. That would explain intermittent. But when it happens, do you even hear the solenoid click?
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04-02-2017, 09:19 PM | #9 |
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Re: Intermittent starting problem
It's NOT heat soak, you DON'T need a heat shield, you DON'T need a new starter, and you DON'T need a Ford solenoid. All of those are reasonable suggestions that might help or work around the problem, but they're not the problem.
The problem is the purple wire. From your ignition switch leads a purple wire. It runs through the neutral safety switch, then out to the starter solenoid. Somewhere in that circuit you have a bad or weak connection. Sometimes people try to install a kill switch in this circuit (bad idea). Sometimes an ammeter pickup has been spliced in there. Whatever the reason, it's a bad circuit. Could be in the neutral safety or ignition switch themselves, but I've never seen either as the cause. Proof? The Ford solenoid approach usually works because all it does is replace the purple wire with a bunch of other heavy gauge wires that use the weak purple wire to trigger a stronger solenoid signal. If there were a genuine starter, solenoid, or heat problem, the Ford solenoid to kickstart the GM solenoid would do nothing. If you can short the starter terminal to the main lug with a screwdriver and it cranks, you know I'm right :-) Just be careful, don't weld anything with the screwdriver! All I'm saying in this step is "make your own purple wire circuit and see if that starts the starter to prove that it's the purple wire", if that makes any sense. All of the above is predicated on one assumption - that when you turn the key, NO sound comes from the starter. If it's clicking or clunking, I'm 100% wrong. But if it's silent...
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04-02-2017, 11:57 PM | #10 | |
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Re: Intermittent starting problem
Quote:
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04-03-2017, 12:24 AM | #11 |
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Re: Intermittent starting problem
I know you said your battery is good, but how old is it and how did you test it?
I had this exact same problem. It had me chasing my tail because the battery had good voltage but I went and replaced it anyway and I don't have this issue anymore. Edit: nevermind, my starter would click. Yours apparently doesn't. |
04-03-2017, 06:04 AM | #12 |
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Re: Intermittent starting problem
I suppose I failed to mention this in my previous posts. when the key is turned to the start position, there is NO clicking or noise of any kind (just like a dead battery). however, all lights, gauges, etc work. red in-gauge brake light comes on when key is start position.
the battery is less than a year old. my old battery tested good but had several years on it so I replaced it thinking somehow it may have been the issue. also should be noted and I never thought of it before, but sometimes I can turn the key to the start position, there is a half second or so delay before the engine begins to turn over. when this happens, it is generally followed by the issue above where nothing happens. I really appreciate all the info guys.
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04-03-2017, 10:24 AM | #13 |
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Re: Intermittent starting problem
You might as well check the small wire going from the + battery post that goes to the passenger fender stand off block. maybe when you're jumping the battery you're moving the wire a little causing it to make the circuit.. can't hurt..
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04-03-2017, 11:32 AM | #14 |
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Re: Intermittent starting problem
Sometime when it doesn't start like that jumper the solenoid post to the battery post with a heavy gauge wire and see if that causes it to crank. If so, there you go.
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1970 GMC Sierra Grande Custom Camper - Built, not Bought 1969 Pontiac 2+2 427/390 4-speed Coupe 1969 Pontiac 2+2 427/390 4-speed Convertible |
04-03-2017, 11:59 AM | #15 |
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Re: Intermittent starting problem
The copper pipe connects the S terminal with the large cable on the gm solenoid when the Ford solenoid kicks in via the purple wire the S terminal gets power the same time as the GM solenoid and it is getting the same voltage as the starter windings.
Here is a diagram. You can buy a small metal jumper plate that takes the place of the copper pipe. The diagram uses a common jumper wire and the plate is shown below. Here is the plate jumper. Here is some good reading by yours truly. http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=655903
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04-03-2017, 12:20 PM | #16 |
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Re: Intermittent starting problem
Ah, I see. I'd earlier said the Ford solenoid just took the place of the purple wire, but it appears from the diagram that it unions the starter and solenoid together and then engages them as a unit using the Ford solenoid. My bad.
Still preferably to me to find the problem in the crank circuit wire, but this'll fix it.
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1970 GMC Sierra Grande Custom Camper - Built, not Bought 1969 Pontiac 2+2 427/390 4-speed Coupe 1969 Pontiac 2+2 427/390 4-speed Convertible |
04-03-2017, 01:07 PM | #17 | |
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Re: Intermittent starting problem
Quote:
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04-03-2017, 03:47 PM | #18 |
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Re: Intermittent starting problem
If anybody does the screw-driver trick/test, please use caution:
From below: lift and support the vehicle with multiple failure tolerance ( jack stands, a jack and wheels under there with you Use wheel chucks. make sure the transmission is OUT of gear, in Park or otherwise secured against the starter causing the vehicle to move off the jack stands From above: Same thing about the tranny being OUT of gear. Stand to the side -klb
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04-03-2017, 07:45 PM | #19 |
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Re: Intermittent starting problem
What size battery cables are you using? I went to 2 gauge cables on my truck. I'M not sure what came from the factory but most have been changed over the years and my truck had 4 gauge cables when I got it.
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04-03-2017, 09:07 PM | #20 | |
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Re: Intermittent starting problem
Quote:
My only point is why not fix the truck rather than patch it up? You're going to be relying on the purple wire anyway to fire off the Ford solenoid, and while it certainly will take less amps than the hot Chevy solenoid, you're still going to be relying on a circuit that has undiagnosed failure in it somewhere. Now if the Ford setup is inherently better than the Chevy, you could argue for the conversion so long as originality isn't a concern. I can see the argument for not having the solenoid down by the hot exhaust, etc.
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04-03-2017, 09:34 PM | #21 |
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Re: Intermittent starting problem
I also approve of the Ford solenoid. For purely not having battery voltage at the starter.
And I've also learned the Chevy mini starters do not like the jumper wire from battery to start terminal, it will hang the bendix in the flywheel a 1/2 second longer than it should. It shouldn't work, but my 68 and 73 both have a ford solenoid and a jumper wire down to the start solenoid. Weird but works.
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04-03-2017, 11:23 PM | #22 | |
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Re: Intermittent starting problem
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04-05-2017, 04:15 PM | #23 |
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Re: Intermittent starting problem
So guys, update on the starting problem. Reading another post by VetteVet, I ran jumpers from power wire/purple wire on starter and solenoid. With the use of a push button, the starter turned over. I then moved to the cab. The power wire in the back of the switch was receiving 12volts per the multimeter. Then I jumped the red power with purple wire on back of switch, again starter turned over. So, this leaves the switch itself not making the connection all the time as it should. Hopefully a replacement will fix this problem...
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04-05-2017, 06:21 PM | #24 | |
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Re: Intermittent starting problem
Quote:
If you jumped the ignition switch when it was in an intermittent phase and not working and then it worked when you jumped the switch, I'd agree. I'm thinking that's the case. Otherwise there's the possibility that it might be the neutral start switch not closed by the position of the gear selector, or the connection between the purple wires in the firewall block behind the fuse block. It might be worthwhile to wait until the no start happens again and then jump to the ignition side of the neutral start switch. Don't bump the shift lever and if the starter turns it confirms that the key switch is bad. If not jiggle the shift lever and see if the starter turns then. It is quite common for the NSS to get out of adjustment or wear down where it won't close the circuit between the purple wires.
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04-05-2017, 07:57 PM | #25 |
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Re: Intermittent starting problem
I will wait until this happens again, then test as you described. Thank you all for the help
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