Lowering and Towing with a Dually

[Android04]

Well I finally found me a single cab dually that I've been on the search for. I picked up a 1985 C30, it was painted Prowler Orange Metallic back in 1995. Needs a little TLC (both rockers, inner and outer) and then some electrical work. Might be making a build thread soon...

So with all that said, I've always wanted to pull my 65 C10 with a 80's or 90's dually. I'm wanting to lower it and have done my research, but a few things worry me. I do not want to put air on it; unless it's air lift for a load. I have enough spare stuff now to do that. I really don't want to C-Notch it, although that seem's to be the only option.

So has anyone done a simple BellTech shackle kit and drop spindles, and towed with it? I've also thought about doing the leaf spring removal but afraid of sag if the overload spring is out. I'm new to the leaf spring world so share some knowledge PLEASE...

To entise you here is my new dually and what will be behind it!

[Tom]

If your going to tow and lower it you really want to consider the helper bags. Otherwise I don't know 1tons well enough to give more advice. Sweet looking trucks though!

[Ziegelsteinfaust]

Originally Posted by Tom

If your going to tow and lower it you really want to consider the helper bags. Otherwise I don't know 1tons well enough to give more advice. Sweet looking trucks though!

This. Helper air bags work wonders. Plus you can remove the over loads for a nicer ride when empty.

[Android04]

Originally Posted by Tom

If your going to tow and lower it you really want to consider the helper bags. Otherwise I don't know 1tons well enough to give more advice. Sweet looking trucks though!

I appreciate the kind words, these trucks are an addiction.

Originally Posted by Ziegelsteinfaust

This. Helper air bags work wonders. Plus you can remove the over loads for a nicer ride when empty.

Yeah that's my thoughts. Remove the overload, shackle kit, and then install the helpers for when I tow my truck or pick up another project. I don't tow often so that would be even better.

Any idea anyone how much of a drop removing the overload would give? Could it potentially create any sag? I do not want to do a flip kit, I've watched a few rear ends flip up when under load. Not a fun fix on the highway. haha

[Ziegelsteinfaust]

On my C20 Camper special I got almost a 2" drop. What you have to do is measure the overload pack to determine drop since different packs will be different thickness.

You won't get sag unless your Running heavy all the time. On my C20 before mods it took something like 2500 pounds to sag the springs 1 inch. After mods it was closer to 750 for 1 inch. But it rode better, and helper bags would of fixed that.

Depending on what your goals are a axle flip can be a good mod. For traction, and especially wheel hop it holds a advantage. When I modded my C20 I used long F150 3 inch wide springs i got for free. I had to custom up some frame mounts. So it was flipped axle, and shackle flip. With it I could bomb around dirt roads, and it was quite nice.

But C30's have short springs which help control heavy loads better then my longer spring C20 could hope to. Much less the even longer F150 springs i added. A factory C30 rode jerky even compared to my CS C20, and both are not as nice as a heavy duty C10 or light duty C20.

So for anything to be better it all depends on the standards to which better is determined.

You need to decide what you want the truck to do, and height at which you want it to sit. Then you can determine the best ways to cheat the results to your desires.

As for not wanting to notch the frame I get it if your going to work the truck hard. Otherwise notch it, and drop it to the height you sound like you may really want. Just weld in some reinforcement plates.

[Big Chip]

I tow with mine. It's a 6/8 drop with a c-notch, overload spring removed and helper airbags. I don't need much air in the bags with this trailer but it is only about 5,000 pounds loaded up. I find that it gets really bouncy if I have more than 5 psi in the bags.

[Android04]

Originally Posted by Ziegelsteinfaust

On my C20 Camper special I got almost a 2" drop. What you have to do is measure the overload pack to determine drop since different packs will be different thickness.

You won't get sag unless your Running heavy all the time. On my C20 before mods it took something like 2500 pounds to sag the springs 1 inch. After mods it was closer to 750 for 1 inch. But it rode better, and helper bags would of fixed that.

Depending on what your goals are a axle flip can be a good mod. For traction, and especially wheel hop it holds a advantage. When I modded my C20 I used long F150 3 inch wide springs i got for free. I had to custom up some frame mounts. So it was flipped axle, and shackle flip. With it I could bomb around dirt roads, and it was quite nice.

But C30's have short springs which help control heavy loads better then my longer spring C20 could hope to. Much less the even longer F150 springs i added. A factory C30 rode jerky even compared to my CS C20, and both are not as nice as a heavy duty C10 or light duty C20.

So for anything to be better it all depends on the standards to which better is determined.

You need to decide what you want the truck to do, and height at which you want it to sit. Then you can determine the best ways to cheat the results to your desires.

As for not wanting to notch the frame I get it if your going to work the truck hard. Otherwise notch it, and drop it to the height you sound like you may really want. Just weld in some reinforcement plates.

Thank you for the info and the reply.

[Android04]

Originally Posted by Big Chip

I tow with mine. It's a 6/8 drop with a c-notch, overload spring removed and helper airbags. I don't need much air in the bags with this trailer but it is only about 5,000 pounds loaded up. I find that it gets really bouncy if I have more than 5 psi in the bags.

Good looking truck and thank you for the info as well. I have everything to do the helpers, so I may go ahead and plan for that. Have you ever had any issues with the rear end moving with the flip kit?

Been doing some more reading, and from the sounds of it anything over a 4" drop needs C-Notch, so I'm guessing I may be stuck doing one. I love these big a$$ trucks though. So fun!

[Big Chip]

Originally Posted by Android04

Good looking truck and thank you for the info as well. I have everything to do the helpers, so I may go ahead and plan for that. Have you ever had any issues with the rear end moving with the flip kit?

Been doing some more reading, and from the sounds of it anything over a 4" drop needs C-Notch, so I'm guessing I may be stuck doing one. I love these big a$$ trucks though. So fun!

I haven't had an issue with the rear but the steering has me a little annoyed. I have Belltech 3" drop spindles and you have to flip the tie rod ends 180 degrees to install (nut on top) which changes everything. I think I may change out to Western Chassis spindles and see if that helps but I need to find out if the steering arm on the spindle is lower in relation to the centerline of the spindle. There's an interference issue as you can see.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Android04

Good looking truck and thank you for the info as well. I have everything to do the helpers, so I may go ahead and plan for that. Have you ever had any issues with the rear end moving with the flip kit?

Been doing some more reading, and from the sounds of it anything over a 4" drop needs C-Notch, so I'm guessing I may be stuck doing one. I love these big a$$ trucks though. So fun!

On my dually, I originally purchased a flip kit for the rear & C-sections. But when doing the math, there was only 8-9" between the top of the axle tube & bottom of the frame rail so I knew even w/the C-sections I would be close @ the rail & closer @ the bed floor. I opted to do a rear stepped-rail kit (from Porterbuilt), 4-bar setup w/bags, & raise the floor. Night & day difference in ride quality loaded or not. Oddly, the rail kit didn't cost much more vs. the bolt-in C-section I originally got (Wester Chassis).

I now have another tow pig ('99 OBS CC SWB). I purchased a flip kit for this one as well but will add lift shackles to add a little height back into the mix. I'll add an AOL set-up (home built) for trailer duty needs. The math says I should yield a 5/7 drop when all the parts are combined which prob would have worked on my Square as well & been easier.

My standard suggestions to C20/C30 owners wanting to do typical bolt-in C-sections:
Find someone who does an under bed notch that has more beef to the brackets vs. a Belltech or Western Chassis standard bolt-in c-section.... especially if you keep the leafs & tow. That's a lot of stress on that section of frame for it to only be 2" tall.

[72c20customcamper]

No help but was this taken this year at the c10 nationals?

[Android04]

Originally Posted by Big Chip

I haven't had an issue with the rear but the steering has me a little annoyed. I have Belltech 3" drop spindles and you have to flip the tie rod ends 180 degrees to install (nut on top) which changes everything. I think I may change out to Western Chassis spindles and see if that helps but I need to find out if the steering arm on the spindle is lower in relation to the centerline of the spindle. There's an interference issue as you can see.

Yeah I was looking at the exact same kit, and I am not a fan at all of flipping the tie rod's. Thank you for sharing that. I wonder if it woudl be the same with a 2" drop spindle and a 1" drop spring. Please keep me posted if you switch to WC Spindles and the outcome. I plan to tackle my suspension this weekend.

[Android04]

Originally Posted by 72c20customcamper

No help but was this taken this year at the c10 nationals?

Yes sir it was at SETN

[Android04]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

My standard suggestions to C20/C30 owners wanting to do typical bolt-in C-sections:
Find someone who does an under bed notch that has more beef to the brackets vs. a Belltech or Western Chassis standard bolt-in c-section.... especially if you keep the leafs & tow. That's a lot of stress on that section of frame for it to only be 2" tall.

What is your thoughts of welding in the C-Notch kit? That's what I did on my 65, but I also do not tow with it. I've looked around for a under bed notch but have only seen them for 88 and up. But haven't done much digging yet.

Thanks Scoti for replying, I was awaiting your reply. When I searched for lowering Dually, your name came up a bunch. haha

So as of now I'm thinking of doing a simple 3" - 4" drop with helper bags. Should look decent with the Semi wheels that I'll have to sell my kids to purchase. Would've never expected them to be that dang expensive.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Android04

What is your thoughts of welding in the C-Notch kit? That's what I did on my 65, but I also do not tow with it. I've looked around for a under bed notch but have only seen them for 88 and up. But haven't done much digging yet.

Thanks Scoti for replying, I was awaiting your reply. When I searched for lowering Dually, your name came up a bunch. haha

So as of now I'm thinking of doing a simple 3" - 4" drop with helper bags. Should look decent with the Semi wheels that I'll have to sell my kids to purchase. Would've never expected them to be that dang expensive.

Todd @ Lowboys has an under-bed boxed-notch set-up. Not sure if it's over-the-counter available or just for in-house installs. It's not much taller but anything that can help is better than just an un-boxed bolt-in c-notch. *I thought just boxing the inside rail on a typical bolt-in c-notch would make-up the difference but the math showed it really didn't add much to the rail strength. The strength is in the vertical/height.

On my '99, I'm using a bolt-in Belltech c-notch, notching the bed floor supports above the frame rail (they're ~2.25" tall), boxing the inside of the rail, & welding a section of 2x2x.250" wall square tube to the top of the notch. By doing this, my fame rail height will only be <1" different vs unmodified/stock height.

It was stressed to me by the engineer that those C-sections that are ~2" rail height 'weak spots' above the axle tubes combined w/towing loads & a leaf spring arrangement (anchor points 2' in front/behind those weak spots) are not a good idea & def not as safe as un-cut engineered rail.

The 3-4" drop will look good too. And those semi wheels.... I'll say 'yes' they're a nice addition but just not worth the $$ in the big picture to me. But, it's a personal thing. You can't go to an event & not come across a dozen big Squares or other dually's w/them on. Oooooo…. Wow. The guys not running 22's & still looking good? They're doing something right. I guess my perspective is the semi's/22" deal are like the old Boss 338's/current Billet Specialties Speedways. They were/are everywhere @ shows.

Now.... A custom 20/22 set-up on a dually? That would peek my interest.

[Android04]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

Todd @ Lowboys has an under-bed boxed-notch set-up. Not sure if it's over-the-counter available or just for in-house installs. It's not much taller but anything that can help is better than just an un-boxed bolt-in c-notch. *I thought just boxing the inside rail on a typical bolt-in c-notch would make-up the difference but the math showed it really didn't add much to the rail strength. The strength is in the vertical/height.

On my '99, I'm using a bolt-in Belltech c-notch, notching the bed floor supports above the frame rail (they're ~2.25" tall), boxing the inside of the rail, & welding a section of 2x2x.250" wall square tube to the top of the notch. By doing this, my fame rail height will only be <1" different vs unmodified/stock height.

It was stressed to me by the engineer that those C-sections that are ~2" rail height 'weak spots' above the axle tubes combined w/towing loads & a leaf spring arrangement (anchor points 2' in front/behind those weak spots) are not a good idea & def not as safe as un-cut engineered rail.

The 3-4" drop will look good too. And those semi wheels.... I'll say 'yes' they're a nice addition but just not worth the $$ in the big picture to me. But, it's a personal thing. You can't go to an event & not come across a dozen big Squares or other dually's w/them on. Oooooo…. Wow. The guys not running 22's & still looking good? They're doing something right. I guess my perspective is the semi's/22" deal are like the old Boss 338's/current Billet Specialties Speedways. They were/are everywhere @ shows.

Now.... A custom 20/22 set-up on a dually? That would peek my interest.

Haha Scotti I get what you're saying and they are on just about every square body Dually I've seen. At the Nationals I seen 6 or 7 I belive. Thankfully I've never seen one locally so if I can bring myself to spend that kind of money on wheels I might. Just A LOT of coin.

I'd honestly never heard of Lowboy Motorsports, but I reached out to them about a notch, and apparently they do tons of dually stuff. So that's a great start! Thank you for all your knowledge and expertise.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Android04

Haha Scotti I get what you're saying and they are on just about every square body Dually I've seen. At the Nationals I seen 6 or 7 I belive. Thankfully I've never seen one locally so if I can bring myself to spend that kind of money on wheels I might. Just A LOT of coin.

I'd honestly never heard of Lowboy Motorsports, but I reached out to them about a notch, and apparently they do tons of dually stuff. So that's a great start! Thank you for all your knowledge and expertise.

Yeppers.... Most popular question when someone walks up & asks who built it/did interior/etc on mine? "Are you 'gonna put semis on it? That would be so cool".

I did price out different options on big wheels & that was even more vs. the standard 22" set-ups. Again, I can't justify the investment. I can't run them on mine anyway because I have my rear bags mounted out-board of the frame rails where those big wheels/tires take up space. The bags would have to go inside or under the rails to fit them. I wanted the best stability & built accordingly.

[72c20customcamper]

Originally Posted by Android04

Yes sir it was at SETN

Thought so as you just make out my pop up tent and Suburban upper left hand corner . Little blurry when you zoom . Next time forum members should set up a meeting time .

[Android04]

Originally Posted by 72c20customcamper

Thought so as you just make out my pop up tent and Suburban upper left hand corner . Little blurry when you zoom . Next time forum members should set up a meeting time .

Agreed. I've been the last 3 years and it's now a yearly ritual for us. I liked the new spot much more.

[72c20customcamper]

First year for me . I left NY Friday mid morning was a spur of the moment road trip . Next year I'm leaving Thursday.

[lolife99]

Originally Posted by Big Chip

I haven't had an issue with the rear but the steering has me a little annoyed. I have Belltech 3" drop spindles and you have to flip the tie rod ends 180 degrees to install (nut on top) which changes everything. I think I may change out to Western Chassis spindles and see if that helps but I need to find out if the steering arm on the spindle is lower in relation to the centerline of the spindle. There's an interference issue as you can see.

I’m not familiar enough with the C30 trucks but your inner tie rods are facing the wrong direction compared to c10/c20 trucks. This means your center link is on backwards. Flip it end for end.
That’s why you have interference with the pitman arm.

[Big Chip]

Originally Posted by lolife99

I’m not familiar enough with the C30 trucks but your inner tie rods are facing the wrong direction compared to c10/c20 trucks. This means your center link is on backwards. Flip it end for end.
That’s why you have interference with the pitman arm.

You are correct that it is backwards and upside down but that's because belltech machines the steering arm for the tie rod end to be installed like mine is. It's as if the steering arm is too high in relation to the spindle. I will take a look tomorrow and see if flipping that center link will improve it at all. I am afraid my solution is new spindles but we shall see.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Big Chip

You are correct that it is backwards and upside down but that's because belltech machines the steering arm for the tie rod end to be installed like mine is. It's as if the steering arm is too high in relation to the spindle. I will take a look tomorrow and see if flipping that center link will improve it at all. I am afraid my solution is new spindles but we shall see.

You don't flip the center. You only flip the TRE's to the bottom.