NV4500 swap is underway - Page 10 - The 1947 - Present Chevrolet & GMC Truck Message Board Network

martindc1 · 12-15-2012, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyLarry

Yes, you can use a mechanical clutch with the AA bellhousing, or add the bracket for hydraulic like I did. The bell works with both. The advantage of a hydraulic clutch is that it is easier to step on and they clutch works flawlessly even when the frame is all twisted up while off-roading.

Snip...

So with the AA bellhousing, you used the square-body master cylinder. Do you use the square-body slave cylinder? Did you use a stock clutch hose or did you go with something aftermarket? I believe I priced the stock replacement hose at around $90 which seems kind of high to me.

DirtyLarry · 12-15-2012, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindc1

So with the AA bellhousing, you used the square-body master cylinder. Do you use the square-body slave cylinder? Did you use a stock clutch hose or did you go with something aftermarket? I believe I priced the stock replacement hose at around $90 which seems kind of high to me.

Yes, yes and yes. All were ’85-’91 square body style hydraulic clutch pieces.

NCF 72128 Clutch Master Cylinder $32.59
NCF 73117 Clutch Slave Cylinder $29.99
UP 38559 MC to Slave hose $83.88

These are Napa part numbers. I just ordered all of this stuff again the other day as I am getting ready to do a NV4500 swap in my Suburban over the Christmas break. You're right, the hose is a bit spendy for what it is.

martindc1 · 12-09-2012, 10:52 PM

Hmm according to the wikipedia article about the zf6, there were some revisions made for the GM version in 2001. Maybe yours was a transition model? On mine there almost feels like a lockout that keeps me from putting it into reverse as opposed to 2nd.

I know what you are saying about the clutch though, I would describe mine as "grabby." That Duramax that I don't need to give it any foot feed when starting from a stop, but if I do, its not smooth at all.

**special-K** · 12-15-2012, 09:32 PM

Have you had chance to look at that transfer case linkage adjustment?

DirtyLarry · 12-15-2012, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by special-K

Have you had chance to look at that transfer case linkage adjustment?

On the Burb? Nah, not yet. Had to put an axle shaft and lower control arm in my buddy's daughters Maxima today then play Christmas shopping with the wife so no quality time with the burb today. Maybe tomorrow I'll get a chance to peek at it. It is coming apart next weekend anyway so no biggie.

**Zoomad75** · 01-18-2014, 07:58 PM

I swear, you have 205's springing up there like garden Gnomes. Good work as always.

ryanroo · 01-18-2014, 10:16 PM

I have a 205 population issue here to. Even though Larry decided to try and help it didnt matter. only a few months later another wayward gearcase found a home under my workbench.

Larry, you may know this already and not care, but an OEM trans W style trans cross member will bolt right up to the NV4500 mount without the need for the double stack of bushings.

As always your work is fantastic and very clean. looks great

DirtyLarry · 01-19-2014, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoomad75

I swear, you have 205's springing up there like garden Gnomes. Good work as always.

Hehe, seems that way

Can't have too many spare parts though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanroo

I have a 205 population issue here to. Even though Larry decided to try and help it didnt matter. only a few months later another wayward gearcase found a home under my workbench.

Larry, you may know this already and not care, but an OEM trans W style trans cross member will bolt right up to the NV4500 mount without the need for the double stack of bushings.

As always your work is fantastic and very clean. looks great

I think all 4x4 gear heads have at least one or two tcases laying around. Mosesburb has a 205 or two laying under his bench too. Thanks for the kind words dude.

Ah...yes, you mean this crossmember like what is in my Polar Bear Burb below? Ya, I know it that xmember works great with a NV4500 but then period correct double xmember and big skid plate wouldn’t fit plus both xmembers would have to be moved back a few inches which would be an issue on a short bed. I also didn’t want to drill more holes in the already overtaxed 1/2 ton frame. For those reasons we made the cantilever bracket for the mount to mount in order to keep the stock xmembers in their original locations.

This is an OLD picture but I like this xmember and skid plate combo better than W xmember in the Burb. The W xmember sure makes the NV4500 an easy swap though!

ryanroo · 01-19-2014, 12:49 AM

Hmmn. that was one i hadn't seen before. i didnt realize the late 80s/early 90s trucks had different crossmembers.

this is the one i was thinking of. this is your case in its original home.

I understand about not wanting to change the current stuff. if it works why mess with it. i figured you knew about the other options but ya never know...

DirtyLarry · 01-19-2014, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanroo

Hmmn. that was one i hadn't seen before. i didnt realize the late 80s/early 90s trucks had different crossmembers.

this is the one i was thinking of. this is your case in its original home.

I understand about not wanting to change the current stuff. if it works why mess with it. i figured you knew about the other options but ya never know...

The xmember in the Polar Bear Burb is the original SM465/241 piece. This was the only “W” type I knew about.

Hmmm, well heck! I don’t recall seeing the one you posted before. It looks like it might work just as well, if not even better, if it mounts in the same spot as mine. Looks like the current skid plate would still work and nice clearance for exhaust too. I’ll keep my eyes open for one like that if I ever need to change it for some reason. Thanks for the heads up!

**argonaut** · 01-19-2014, 05:40 AM

Perhaps the reason for the 5th gear failure comes from high frequency vibrations present in the absence of the stock damper.

In my research I seemed to find that the Dodge units without dampers had more fifth gear failures than the Chevy units which use them. This may have been coincidental, but the engineers decided to use the dampers for a reason and so it was a one of the reasons that I decided to retain the stock damper and adapter just like Larry is showing here.

Larry are you at all concerned that the NP205 weighs almost twice as much as the 208 or 241 that was intended to hang off of that adapter?

K20chevy · 01-19-2014, 08:45 AM

Out of my own experience with an aluminum tail housing braking off dumping the t-case on the interstate, I can just advice everyone to run a second crossmember, second tranny mount and an adapter like I have used on my truck. Works perfect and gives you the extra insurence in case something does let go, that the t-case will stay unter the truck.

here are the pics...

mock up:

final install:

final install close up:

2nd cross member from the side:

DirtyLarry · 01-19-2014, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by argonaut

Perhaps the reason for the 5th gear failure comes from high frequency vibrations present in the absence of the stock damper.

In my research I seemed to find that the Dodge units without dampers had more fifth gear failures than the Chevy units which use them. This may have been coincidental, but the engineers decided to use the dampers for a reason and so it was a one of the reasons that I decided to retain the stock damper and adapter just like Larry is showing here.

Larry are you at all concerned that the NP205 weighs almost twice as much as the 208 or 241 that was intended to hang off of that adapter?

I often wonder about the damper too. GM applications didn’t use dampers behind gas engines, only 6.5L diesels to dampen the pulses of the rattley diesel. Sometimes I also wonder if the way I lug the truck does more damage than just conserving fuel. The 8.1L has plenty of torque where I am often already in 5th before going 40 – 45 MPH.

No, I am not worried about the weight of the 205 on the aluminum adapter/rear trans cover at all but maybe I should be?? To me, the NV4500 aluminum adapter even looks sturdier than the old school 465/205 adapters that were known for cracking. Now with that said, had I used a 205/203 doubler like others have done I definitely would have gone with a cast iron adapter. Seems all the cast iron adapters are for the Dodge version of the NV4500 instead of GM. Maybe I am wrong or just didn’t look hard enough. What are you planning to do with yours? I certainly do not recommend using the 205 side bracket to bolt it to the frame!

ryanroo · 01-19-2014, 04:26 PM

ive had my 205 hung off the back of the GM 4500 tail housing in my jeep for the last 4-5 years. no issues at all. granted it doesn't see a lot of miles, but i have beat and bounced it pretty hard on a few occasions. i even have the AA spacer to amplify the situation. cast aluminum doesnt stretch, or bounce much, so unless the mating of the two is loose, it would have little room for movement that would lead to cracks. i also have a big block in mine and drive in 5th almost all the time on the road. my 4500 came behind a 350 originally and has no damper. it had 125k on it when i pulled it and all i did was an inspection and stuck it back together. anyhow, i haven't yet had any 5th gear issues. ill hope that remains the case.

**Dieselwrencher** · 01-20-2014, 04:00 PM

Larry, that 205 looks pretty dang nice. Most of the 5th gear issues we see are on pre 98 dodge NV4500's that aren't upgraded at all, and on the 98 later ones, people having double or triple the power and driving like sports cars.

I agree, I believe lugging is what takes most of them out. We've had a couple with upgraded nuts and main shafts still have issues. They were stock VP trucks. Another new nut and some performance upgrades and they have been fine. They tow in 5th all the time and it's been over 2 years now. The new 5th gear fix is the best way to fix it but kind of costly. My brother put one in his 92 F-350 after the nut backed off it on the way to Ca a while back. I was surprised it came off but that truck was used as a pulling truck the whole summer before.

On the weight hanging off the aluminum tail housings, yeah, we've seen a couple of first gen NV4500 swaps that had an early failure from the tail housing being cracked and the trans gear lube leaking out and the trans being ran out of oil until it's dead. We switch over to a cast tail housing on all of them we do just for peace of mind. That second mount is a good idea too.

**argonaut** · 01-21-2014, 02:41 AM

My plan all along has been to add a simple steel brace that sits above the tail housing and bolts to the upper two locations on the transmission and the upper three locations on the transfer case. It's a little hard to explain and I haven't yet sketched up a design. Just a couple ideas floating in mind. The point is that the top of the tail housing is in tension from the moment about the mounting points caused by the gravity force on the transfer case. My steel brace would allow the tension forces to be transmitted through it, in addition to the aluminum housing, directly from the t-case to the back of the trans. Unfortunately this does nothing to absorb the shear forces, but perhaps that could be mitigated if the brace also tied down to the tail housing mount locations. I'll need to think about it a little more before I start fabricating.

Or maybe the additional rear mount would be easier

ryanroo · 01-21-2014, 08:27 AM

My thoughts when i built the jeep, were to take off from the rear output housing mounting bolts. then i could hang the case from the top and it wouldnt be as much of a pain to drop it. i still wouldnt mind doing it, as it sits now the belly pan also supports the trans and transfer. it makes it a bit of a chore to pull the belly pan. i would much rather have the gearboxes hung from the top so the skidplate can be removed without as much hassle.

i wasn't terribly worried about it causing fatigue issues so i never pursued the second mount and i had some clearance issues for fabricating the top mount which have since been relieved by some roll cage tubing.

arrover · 01-21-2014, 01:24 PM

I don't know all the ins and outs of NV4500/205 setups since I don't have that in my truck BUT, I thought I should post this just in case you guys hadn't seen it: http://diy4x.com/cart/index.php?rout...product_id=202 . Maybe it helps, maybe it doesn't. Great thread though. Thanks for all of the info!

DirtyLarry · 01-22-2014, 08:35 PM

Well, I am not going to worry about an added support for the 205. There are lots of people running this combo just like I have it with great success. Maybe it if was a full on rock crawler or something crazy it would be more important. Hell, I’ve got a nice big skid plate to catch it if it falls off!

Alas she’s all bolted together again! All I have left is to install are the new shift knobs coming from JB Fabrication which should be here Friday. One of the ORD shift knobs broke when I tightened it too tight, glad it broke too as the JB knobs have the shifter map engraved in them.

I haven’t had a chance to go for a test drive yet as the batteries were dead (poor truck hasn’t left the house since last June)....maybe Friday I'll be able to take it for a spin.

Picked up $475 worth of driveshaft’s Monday. The rear needed a new stub and slip yoke to accommodate the change to the larger 1350 u-joint at the tcase. I’ve had a 1350 at the rear axle for quite a while but the tcase end was really small, like a 1210 or something. The front shaft needed the works…CV rebuild, new joints, the stub and yoke were loose so they got replaced and it needed to be lengthened almost 2”. All the U-joints are the Super Brute solid core cross shafts.

Beefy. It’s an optical illusion where the ebrake cable looks like it is near the yoke when it is actually a few inches away from it.

I spent a lot more time this go around fine tuning the ORD twin stick adjustment. I really like the way it shifts now. Having front wheel drive seems really weird to shift only that stick. BTW….to run only in front wheel drive the rear shifter must be left in neutral, which is nice so you don’t end up running the front and rear in two different range speeds.

The trans coolers are HUGE! The coolers also add 2 quarts of capacity. Either they are going to help keep the fluid cooler or help keep it really hot from the heat of the exhaust

Time will tell! The picture also makes it look like the front shaft is uncomfortably close to the trans cooler but there is plenty of room. The Dana 60 will have to crash through the 8.1L oil pan before the shaft hits the cooler.

Now that all this is done I’ve still got a ton of work to do to it before the next big desert trip coming up in May. The rear winch needs work (again) because it stopped working (again). This damn Milemarker winch is broke more than it actually works. Junk!

Then I need to get it up to Denver to spend a week with Phoenix as they are going to remodel the kitchen area to the latest and greatest stove/sink combo instead of the old fashion rattle trap camp stove that is in it now. It is also getting fitted with 100W solar power.

Lastly, I may still have an issue with the rear axle to figure out. Last spring on the Death Valley trip it puked out over a quart of 80W-90. When I got home I changed the rear cover to add capacity then filled it with Synthetic thinking it just overheated. A couple months later I drove it to Arizona for the Overland Expo and the sumbish puked out another quart of oil out the vent on that trip. Talk about a friggen mess all over the rear of the truck and camper when it decides to have its gear oil orgasm. I’ve since replaced the vent hose and installed a new vent so the trip to Denver should be a good test for that. I just don’t know what would cause this thing to start puking out oil out of the blue. There is zero noise coming from the axle that would point towards any bearing issues.

Redcap · 01-22-2014, 09:14 PM