Crusty Rusty Leaky Squeaky 67 Step

[knomadd]

Well Vic, I'm glad you made it out. I'm sorry it ended poorly, but at least it made it back home in one piece. I've seen too many classics get wrecked lately that I'd take the troubles you're having over that any day.

As my wife likes to say when I tell her I need to do something to the vehicles... "it's always something."

[Xeen]

Yikes well if 2/2 times you filled up with mid grade it died then I would say it's a good bet that you will need to run premium only gas.
Try putting a bottle of octane booster in it and if it runs without an issue then you know you need to run premium only gas.
I can't remember did you install a canister style filter, if so pull the canister and look at the filter and see if it's dirty as hell, if not it's probably the grade of the gas.

[1971_c10]

Hey Vic, man I'm with Ramjet51 and sorry I missed checking out your truck at the C10 Nats and meeting you. I was there with my truck C10CJ but I wound up spending most of the day Friday dodging the rain (me, the truck got soaked) then down at the autocross and then most of Saturday at the autocross as well. If you watched any of the autocross I was the turquoise (looked green in the TX sun to most) '71 with no bed floor.

On your engine issues, so sorry to hear the trouble you've had. The hard starting is very interesting. I'm running an aftermarket ECU so I can't offer much there but sounds like there might be too much advance at cranking speeds. The LS loves tons of advance at idle and up, but that needs to be dropped down to around 15 deg at start. Ask your tuner what he's done to the advance curve in the start region. If you haven't checked the fuel pressure in a while it'd be good to double check that as the regulator will "wear in" a little and *might* be low. If pressure has dropped too low it causes the ECU to spray the wrong amount of fuel, but that doesn't explain the hard starting. Does your ECU do a pump prime? i.e. if you key on but don't start, does the pump run for a few seconds? On a return setup the pressure will bleed down completely when off, so if there is no pump prime, you need to crank long enough to get enough pressure for the injectors to fire. Also, battery voltage can cause issues during starting. If your voltage drops too much at the coils, injectors, or ECU that can very well cause issues even with a good battery. Hopefully you've got those guys wired to the battery with some heavy gauge wire and the ECU power (not the switched power) is to the battery directly and not on a distribution block. I have a brand new red top Optima and it's working ok so unless you got a dud the battery is probably fine like you said. It replaced a 10+ year old yellow top that was having issues and causing me all sorts of problems.

I can offer up a few things on a couple other symptoms. On the oil consumption, you may need a baffle in your valve cover (as simple as a piece of metal over the off take with a standoff to allow airflow) to reduce the oil loss to the catch can. On the idle issues, since you mentioned PCV in one of your posts, I'll offer that the PCV flow can be fighting the IAC control. What happens is the PCV becomes an air source that the ECU doesn't know about, so the IAC winds up fighting that extra air flow. If you've put a different cam in the engine (sorry, I joined your build late) this can exaggerate the problem as if the PCV isn't a fixed orifice or tunable it might be jumping back and forth between idle flow and cruise flow which will really cause issues and cause the engine to stumble and stall. Fuel pressure, fuel quality and throttle blade idle position do also play a role (along with the base fuel map). A simple test would be to unplug the PCV to the intake (plug the intake) and start the truck. If it runs better could point to too much air coming through the PCV at idle.

For the record, I filled my tow pig up a couple times at Love's (diesel) and it ran like crap on those tanks. So I started avoiding Love's. If their diesel sucks the regular petrol probably isn't any different.

Sorry for the long post. Just trying to offer up some info based on learnings I've had over the years.

[Vic1947]

Originally Posted by Low Elco

Aw, Maaaannnn..... Glad everyone's home safe. Enjoy your trip!

Thanks, Chip! We made it home last night with no issues other than bugs on the windscreen. Unwinding today and getting setup to bring Dad home.

Originally Posted by knomadd

Well Vic, I'm glad you made it out. I'm sorry it ended poorly, but at least it made it back home in one piece. I've seen too many classics get wrecked lately that I'd take the troubles you're having over that any day. As my wife likes to say when I tell her I need to do something to the vehicles... "it's always something."

Amen to that, Duane. When Vern got broadsided in Yeller, it made me realize how minor my issues really are.

Originally Posted by Xeen

Yikes well if 2/2 times you filled up with mid grade it died then I would say it's a good bet that you will need to run premium only gas.
Try putting a bottle of octane booster in it and if it runs without an issue then you know you need to run premium only gas.
I can't remember did you install a canister style filter, if so pull the canister and look at the filter and see if it's dirty as hell, if not it's probably the grade of the gas.

Hey, Brian. I'm guessing the main problem is related to fuel... either has water in it or some kind of particulates. I'll know more in a few days. Ordered new gaskets from Boyd and will drain/clean the tank thoroughly as part of the diagnostics. I'm only running the Corvette filter/regulator so I probably need to upgrade to a canister filter ahead of it. I also plan to build a window above the fuel components so I never have to pull the bed again for fuel issues.

Originally Posted by 1971_c10

Hey Vic, man I'm with Ramjet51 and sorry I missed checking out your truck at the C10 Nats and meeting you. I was there with my truck C10CJ but I wound up spending most of the day Friday dodging the rain (me, the truck got soaked) then down at the autocross and then most of Saturday at the autocross as well. If you watched any of the autocross I was the turquoise (looked green in the TX sun to most) '71 with no bed floor.

On your engine issues, so sorry to hear the trouble you've had. The hard starting is very interesting. I'm running an aftermarket ECU so I can't offer much there but sounds like there might be too much advance at cranking speeds. The LS loves tons of advance at idle and up, but that needs to be dropped down to around 15 deg at start. Ask your tuner what he's done to the advance curve in the start region. If you haven't checked the fuel pressure in a while it'd be good to double check that as the regulator will "wear in" a little and *might* be low. If pressure has dropped too low it causes the ECU to spray the wrong amount of fuel, but that doesn't explain the hard starting. Does your ECU do a pump prime? i.e. if you key on but don't start, does the pump run for a few seconds? On a return setup the pressure will bleed down completely when off, so if there is no pump prime, you need to crank long enough to get enough pressure for the injectors to fire. Also, battery voltage can cause issues during starting. If your voltage drops too much at the coils, injectors, or ECU that can very well cause issues even with a good battery. Hopefully you've got those guys wired to the battery with some heavy gauge wire and the ECU power (not the switched power) is to the battery directly and not on a distribution block. I have a brand new red top Optima and it's working ok so unless you got a dud the battery is probably fine like you said. It replaced a 10+ year old yellow top that was having issues and causing me all sorts of problems.

I can offer up a few things on a couple other symptoms. On the oil consumption, you may need a baffle in your valve cover (as simple as a piece of metal over the off take with a standoff to allow airflow) to reduce the oil loss to the catch can. On the idle issues, since you mentioned PCV in one of your posts, I'll offer that the PCV flow can be fighting the IAC control. What happens is the PCV becomes an air source that the ECU doesn't know about, so the IAC winds up fighting that extra air flow. If you've put a different cam in the engine (sorry, I joined your build late) this can exaggerate the problem as if the PCV isn't a fixed orifice or tunable it might be jumping back and forth between idle flow and cruise flow which will really cause issues and cause the engine to stumble and stall. Fuel pressure, fuel quality and throttle blade idle position do also play a role (along with the base fuel map). A simple test would be to unplug the PCV to the intake (plug the intake) and start the truck. If it runs better could point to too much air coming through the PCV at idle.

For the record, I filled my tow pig up a couple times at Love's (diesel) and it ran like crap on those tanks. So I started avoiding Love's. If their diesel sucks the regular petrol probably isn't any different.

Sorry for the long post. Just trying to offer up some info based on learnings I've had over the years.

I saw your truck on Saturday... just didn't know it was you! I was only there a couple of hours on Friday with my buddy Jay to pick up his credentials. Spent most of the time in the covered area where the vendors were setup.

Thank you very much for all the troubleshooting tips! When I first tested the fuel system prior to initial break-in, it was spot on at 61 psi. Pump primes for a couple of seconds and then turns off until the starter engages. After it croaked on the road, the tech at the shop in TX tested it and it was barely 20 psi. Will keep you posted on what I find with fuel, starting and oil use.

[Low Elco]

Glad you made it home ok, and glad your Dad made it through with no problems. Hope you had a good time. Vern has a new truck, a 2004 silverado. Lots of good news on the wreck front as well.

[Vic1947]

Originally Posted by Low Elco

Glad you made it home ok, and glad your Dad made it through with no problems. Hope you had a good time. Vern has a new truck, a 2004 silverado. Lots of good news on the wreck front as well.

You gotta start letting Vern in on the news, Chip. He called and came over yesterday and was like, "What the heck, how did you know about the truck and everything?" Pretty nice rig!

Quick update on CRLS...
I drained several gallons of fuel out of the tank and there was no water present and only a few tiny fine particles. So the problem is something else. I marked the area I plan to cut out for an access panel when I remove the bed. Been kinda tied up with Dad back home with new things I need to do each day. So progress will be a little slower if ya know what I mean.

[Oldironracing]

Will the tank not drop out from bottom of truck?

[swamp rat]

That's one big access hole!

[Vic1947]

Originally Posted by Oldironracing

Will the tank not drop out from bottom of truck?

In order to mount the hidden trailer hitch, I ended up mounting the tank on top of the lower frame rail lip. Now, to remove the tank, you need to unbolt both the hitch and the tank and then slide the tank out the back. It's clumsy, but it allowed me to hide the hitch behind the license plate, plus it raised the tank a little bit so you see less of it from the back view of the truck. Once again, vanity overwhelms common sense.

Originally Posted by swamp rat

That's one big access hole!

Yep, if ever I need to get at the pump and regulator again, I'll have a hole big enough to do so. I'll pick up a bed mat from Chux Trux this week and it will cover the inevitable ugliness.

The fuel problem ended up being stupid simple. The hose I used to connect the pump and the output line was not rated for the high pressure. It blew out after being immersed in the fuel and that was that. The weather pack connector they sent with the pump was obviously not meant for exposure to fuel either. There's a minuscule amount of tiny shavings and debris at the bottom of the tank which I'll clean up before reassembly. Some of it ended up on the fine mesh filter, but not enough to create a problem.

I obviously need to rethink my homemade in tank pump setup. More later.

[1971_c10]

Glad you found what looks to be the problem! They do make some plastic hose you can pick up relatively cheap and is intended to be put in the tank. I have something similar to this (Holley has a couple different sizes):

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel...t/parts/12-728

Mine has a loop in it from the pump up to the tank outlet.

Also, on the electrical, I avoid connectors in the tank and use adhesive lined polyolefin heat shrink on all the connections. I normally buy that stuff from Waytek wire but I found some in a pinch at a local Napa.

This is the stuff I normally use, comes in various initial sizes and shrinks up to 3:1.

https://www.waytekwire.com/item/2220...CK-Polyolefin/

Good luck! Again, glad it looks like something simple and not complicated.

[Vic1947]

Thanks, Chris. I ordered an assortment of the polyolefin adhesive heat shrink tubing today. Also some PTFE wire to connect to the pump leads. Will shrink wrap the connections and position them toward the bottom of the tank where they'll always be covered with fuel... just in case.

I plan to use nylon covered steel braided hose with an additional layer of heat shrink over it to connect the pump to the outlet tube. That should withstand the pressure and resist the degradation from any ethanol. I've been running premium with no ethanol when I can find it, but sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

On our trip, we logged fuel usage for around 1250 miles before the hose burst and put us on the trailer. Overall we averaged 16.33 mpg. Not as good as I hoped for a computer controlled FI engine. With the 3.73 gear, in overdrive with the converter locked, the RPM was hovering around 2200 at 70. On my silver truck with the 2004R trans, a 3.23 gear and slightly taller tires, the same cruise RPM was around 1750. We've come to the conclusion that CRLS may be an "in town" truck from here on out.

[cornerstone]

Hey there Vic, First off, it was a pleasure meeting you and your better half at the C10 Nationals. You're wife is a very kind person. Its a real bummer that a 2 dollar part failure can cause such a disruption to an otherwise great trip. I think it's safe to say that everyone who has read your thread and has seen the high level of craftsmanship you display, feels terrible that this is what happened to y'all. But I guess such is life and it happens to the best of them.

I will be assembling my fuel system very shortly and probably would have done it the exact same way that you did the first go-round. I am currently working on buttoning up my axle after installing a tru-track and gear change to a 4:11. (from an open diff/3.07 gear) I say these things only to let you know that I'm grateful that you have shown your difficulties to us, and how you overcome them. Now I know how to do it the right way and will hopefully avoid some of the issues that you went through. You also have me rethinking my gear choice, I was told by several others that 2200 rpm at 70 was just right, and I was quite concerned since my DD is 1800 rpm at 70. I hope to make my 72 my next DD, so may I ask, what is your transmissions overdrive gear ratio?

Thanks a bunch man... Brian

[Vic1947]

Originally Posted by cornerstone

Hey there Vic, First off, it was a pleasure meeting you and your better half at the C10 Nationals. You're wife is a very kind person. Its a real bummer that a 2 dollar part failure can cause such a disruption to an otherwise great trip. I think it's safe to say that everyone who has read your thread and has seen the high level of craftsmanship you display, feels terrible that this is what happened to y'all. But I guess such is life and it happens to the best of them.

I will be assembling my fuel system very shortly and probably would have done it the exact same way that you did the first go-round. I am currently working on buttoning up my axle after installing a tru-track and gear change to a 4:11. (from an open diff/3.07 gear) I say these things only to let you know that I'm grateful that you have shown your difficulties to us, and how you overcome them. Now I know how to do it the right way and will hopefully avoid some of the issues that you went through. You also have me rethinking my gear choice, I was told by several others that 2200 rpm at 70 was just right, and I was quite concerned since my DD is 1800 rpm at 70. I hope to make my 72 my next DD, so may I ask, what is your transmissions overdrive gear ratio?

Thanks a bunch man... Brian

Hey Brian, it was great talking with you also. I enjoy that part as much as looking at all the hardware. I'm slowly working thru the bugs we found on the trip and will post photos of fixes as they develop.

I've listed the gear ratios you asked about below. As you can see, the 4L65E trans is very much like the 700-R4. I was running the 200-4R in my '68 which has a bit better OD ratio for the highway.

[Vic1947]

Progress has been very slow... other things keep getting in the way as is often the case. The QA1 rear shocks arrived and I installed them today. Also hooked up the OBDII reader to have another look at the DTC codes that were set. There were two permanent codes (P0131 and P0151) which are both O2 sensor codes. Most likely they were set when the fuel pressure cratered and the A/F ratio went nuts. Apparently, from what the Google says, you have to do a "Universal Trip Drive Pattern" to clear permanent codes. Keeps the great unwashed from using software to bypass emissions codes without fixing the root problem. So when I get everything reassembled, I'll follow the protocol and hopefully be back to normal.

[Vic1947]

I got a nice reply from Aeromotive this afternoon. Here's what they said...

"I’m sorry to hear you’ve had trouble, but I can tell you exactly what’s happened. The Corvette Filter/Regulator is not compatible with pumps that flow in excess of 190 LPH (what they were designed for from GM). At 340 LPH the filter tends to clog very quickly, commonly in 3-5 weeks, after which the pressure between the pump and the filter skyrockets. This is probably what caused the in-tank hose to split as the pump pressure will hit 95-PSI before the bypass in the pump opens. Most importantly you’re going to need a proper, high flow filter and regulator in order to avoid future problems. We recommend a 12347 fuel filter and 13138 fuel pressure regulator for optimum performance and service life."

So there you have it... straight from the folks that should know. I don't recall this being mentioned on any of the blogs where guys were recommending the Corvette filter/regulator. I'm a bit surprised at the notion the filter would clog that quickly, given that the tank was new and had only a tiny amount of fine particulate matter in it when I removed the pump the other day. Plus, the large plastic screen filter on the pump inlet looked clean. But, the end result sure looks like what they described. Regardless, I'll revise the system to use their filter and regulator. Another expensive lesson.

[cornerstone]

From the mouth of Rosanna Anna Danna... "if it ain't one thing, its another!"
Victor, I believe you haven't caught a single break yet.
I agree with you, I also did not find anything in all of my searching that would indicate any such possible problem. I almost pulled the trigger TODAY and bought the EXACT fuel delivery system that failed you.
On a positive note, you helped me... and probably others in the future dodge another bullet because your kind enough to share your successes AND failures. Again, sorry, but thanks.

[hotwls13]

Just read through this build (over a couple days, haha).

WOW!! Gives new meaning to "Work Truck". Fabulous build!

[Vic1947]

Originally Posted by cornerstone

From the mouth of Rosanna Anna Danna... "if it ain't one thing, its another!"
Victor, I believe you haven't caught a single break yet.
I agree with you, I also did not find anything in all of my searching that would indicate any such possible problem. I almost pulled the trigger TODAY and bought the EXACT fuel delivery system that failed you.
On a positive note, you helped me... and probably others in the future dodge another bullet because your kind enough to share your successes AND failures. Again, sorry, but thanks.

I'm just glad you were able to pull up before hitting the dirt, Brian. I confess to being a little bit skeptical about the diagnosis, but I put a gauge on the Corvette unit today and the return is completely inop. Backpressure was over 100 psi. Not sure if the filter is plugged or the regulator went belly up. BIL Rick will be here in a week or so and we'll do a post mortem and pass along what we find.

Originally Posted by hotwls13

Just read through this build (over a couple days, haha).

WOW!! Gives new meaning to "Work Truck". Fabulous build!

Thanks! Just seems like several giant steps backward right now. Once I cut the access hole in the bed and throw the new bed mat in over it, CRLS will officially be in work truck mode.

Brian Clow (Tech Director at Aeromotive) helped me out with some great pricing on the items I needed, so I'm revising the fuel system after they arrived today. They supplied the new canister filter, regulator and another pump. I needed the pump because I dropped the one that came out of the tank and of all places, it hit right on the composite outlet and snapped it off. It wasn't repairable, so the raindrops keep falling on my head.

[mcbassin]

Sorry for the rough start to getting this truck on the road. I'm certain you will get past all these little road bumps...

[Low Elco]

Great, now that's stuck in my head all day. Thanks, Vic. Sorry about the bumps in the road, hopefully we'll see 'ol Greenie out soon!

[Ol Blue K20]

Hey Vic check out my signature. You're getting lots of feathers lately. I'm having chicken thoughts for ya.....lol

[Vic1947]

Originally Posted by mcbassin

Sorry for the rough start to getting this truck on the road. I'm certain you will get past all these little road bumps...

Thanks, Mike. I tell myself when you spend five years on a project, there's going to be some stuff that comes back to haunt you.

Originally Posted by Low Elco

Great, now that's stuck in my head all day. Thanks, Vic. Sorry about the bumps in the road, hopefully we'll see 'ol Greenie out soon!

You're welcome, Chip! I'm making some headway, just need to up my game a little.

Originally Posted by Ol Blue K20

Hey Vic check out my signature. You're getting lots of feathers lately. I'm having chicken thoughts for ya.....lol

Thanks, Dale!

I geared up today with the full facemask and sliced open the access panel. Here are some photos. The remaining cleco's will be replaced with sheetmetal screws and then the whole mess will be covered with a bed mat.

[Vic1947]

My BIL Rick made it here today from Seattle with his younger brother, Brian, in tow. We did a bit of forensics work on the truck but didn't find anything worth reporting. Before Rick got here, I'd removed the threaded sump from the Elite Engineering catch can figuring it would be full of oil. (Still trying to account for the quart of oil that went missing on the trip.) However, there was barely a tablespoon in the bottom of the can. We searched around on the engine, but nothing jumped out as being the problem. The exhaust tips are not at all greasy so I don't think the engine is burning it. The biggest telltale is the oily film that's accumulating on the frame, suspension and floor pan. It's most evident on the upper A-arm bump stop where a droplet actually formed. But as to where it's coming from, no idea yet.

The other thing we did was cut open the GM filter/regulator. Again, nothing looked out of whack. Unwound the paper accordion element and there was no debris at all on it. Used the lathe to open the regulator but there was no obvious defect in the construction. The diaphragm, o-rings and etc. were all in good shape. So I'm at a loss as to why it failed. The remaining parts for the fuel system should arrive tomorrow, so I plan to finalize the plumbing and get it tested. Maybe even bust it off if it's willing. Stay tuned...

[knomadd]

If the oil mist/film is on the drivers side, check the oil cooler port that you've probably put a bypass cap on. Mine has a small leak because the damn factory metal "gasket" doesn't work very well. I may end up putting some "right stuff" on it later. I don't know if it would contribute to a whole quart of oil going unaccounted for. Otherwise, pull your throttle body and check the inside of the intake for a film. The catch can might not be working very well. Grasping at straws here, but hoping it might spark something to help you find the source.

[Vic1947]

Originally Posted by knomadd

If the oil mist/film is on the drivers side, check the oil cooler port that you've probably put a bypass cap on. Mine has a small leak because the damn factory metal "gasket" doesn't work very well. I may end up putting some "right stuff" on it later. I don't know if it would contribute to a whole quart of oil going unaccounted for. Otherwise, pull your throttle body and check the inside of the intake for a film. The catch can might not be working very well. Grasping at straws here, but hoping it might spark something to help you find the source.

The oil mist is on both sides, although it seems heavier on the passenger side. However, I'll check the port anyway and look at the intake as well. Thanks for the suggestions, Duane.

I finished up the plumbing and tested the lines and the regulator. It came preset at 61psi from Aeromotive. Only had one small leak in the lines and tightening the fitting a bit more fixed that. I cranked the engine over and it fired on the first try. Not only that, but it's fired instantly each subsequent time. With the vacuum reference line hooked up, the fuel pressure drops to 55psi with the engine running. If the regulator works like it's designed, the fuel pressure should approach 61psi at full throttle.

The serpentine belt still squeals like a pig, but it's on my list of things to fix. Time to get busy putting a few things back together for a change.