Tbi swap build thread

[pancake]

rfmaster, find anything good at the swap meet?

68TT, i know Earls sells the metric to -6AN fittings to attach an AN fitting to the TBI supply and return...I will try to get part # if you need it.

I have still not received/installed a fuel pressure gauge but I did a little more troble shooting..

I think that the Intake manifold is leaking on the passenger side center by the EGR. I took a can of carb cleaner and sprayed around the intake and it showed a noticible difference. The engine almost died. Would this indicate a vacuume leak? Can the egr "suck" up carb cleaner? It also seemed to be leaking on the driver side towards the back.

I beleive that my "machining" of the center bolt holes did not go so well.

The intake I orginally took off does not have an EGR so I think I will have to get another intake.

I was looking at the Edelbrock Performer intake manifold 3701. I would have to get an adapter plate, but it does have an EGR.

I was also looking at Arizona TPI...I belive they sell stock TBI manifolds that they actually machine....probably did a better job than me

Do you guys have any sugestions?

Is the 3701 intake to "radical" for the TBI?

I was thinking about re-mounting the TBI intake that I "machined" but I dont think it will work. Don't want to wasted my liminted time.

Again, thanks for the help, support, and knowledge you guys are sharring

[rfmaster]

Hey pancake

Earl's 991955 Blue Anodized Aluminum -6AN Male to 16mm by 1.5 Power Steering/ Fuel Injection Adapter Fitting. These are pricey if you ask me (nice quality non the less). A lower cost alternative is from Russell Performance 648060 - Russell AN to Metric Adapter Fittings -6 AN to 16mm x 1.5 Male for supply rail ($8) and Russell Performance 648070 - Russell AN to Metric Adapter Fittings -6AN to 14mm x 1.5 O-Ring for about 11$

Summit also offers their own brand (probably made by Accel ) Fuel Rail Fittings, Aluminum, Blue, TPI, One -6 AN to 16mm x 1.5 O-ring, One -6 AN to 14mm x 1.5 O-ring, SUM-220009 for about $20.

Pomona swap meet is great, but it is huge. It takes about 3 hours just to walk swap meet - cars for sale that's another story all together. I was not looking for anything in particular, but if a clean hood, right fender and door presented itself (for a right price) I would have made my move. But, as luck would have it I did not see any, besides the '90 323 makes for poor transportation means for a hood! Did manage to get a good deal for truck cover and a pair of NIB Maglite flashlights and some Snap-On sockets. The thing to remember about swaps meets that there is always next month.

I am trying to convince my XYL that I need (haha) a new project, but that's another story all together.

Intake manifold leaks and modified bolt holes - there is only one solution that I can offer you in this regard. Get intake manifold that matches your head's intake bolt pattern. In 1986 GM made several changes to Gen 1 SBC - one being altering intake manifold angle from traditional 90 deg to 70 deg. Elongating holes, inserts shortly followed. IMHO it is a false economy approach.
Leaks occur partly due to unequal distribution of clamping force.

For 1986 and earlier heads 3701 is a good choice if you plan to run Carb or TB with adapter. 3701 is a good choice for a stock or slightly modified engines. It is a dual plane, non air gap design. TBI works best with dual plane heated intake manifolds (i.e 3701).
I run Holley 300-49 TBI specific intake - with block off EGR. There are no leaks thanks to a quality gasket between block off plate and manifold. The only problem with Holley intake is that there is limited clearance for fuel lines! I had to use 1" TB spacer to raise TB above intake flange to get enough clearance for fuel lines. So be careful with type of adapter (TB to Q-jet) you are going to get - get the one that offers fuel line clearance (rear or center mounted TB)!

//RF

[68 TT]

Originally Posted by rfmaster

Hey pancake

Earl's 991955 Blue Anodized Aluminum -6AN Male to 16mm by 1.5 Power Steering/ Fuel Injection Adapter Fitting. These are pricey if you ask me (nice quality non the less). A lower cost alternative is from Russell Performance 648060 - Russell AN to Metric Adapter Fittings -6 AN to 16mm x 1.5 Male for supply rail ($8) and Russell Performance 648070 - Russell AN to Metric Adapter Fittings -6AN to 14mm x 1.5 O-Ring for about 11$

Summit also offers their own brand (probably made by Accel ) Fuel Rail Fittings, Aluminum, Blue, TPI, One -6 AN to 16mm x 1.5 O-ring, One -6 AN to 14mm x 1.5 O-ring, SUM-220009 for about $20.

I'm too cheap even for that

I like the $1 each cad plated steel pipe to AN fittings I get from the local hydraulic shop.

I had the hydraulic shop solder on some -06 male fittings onto the metal fuel lines that came off the regulator and the metal lines coming off the fuel tank sending unit. It made plumbing to them much easier and only cost about $5 each installed.

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by 68 TT

I'm too cheap even for that

I like the $1 each cad plated steel pipe to AN fittings I get from the local hydraulic shop.

I had the hydraulic shop solder on some -06 male fittings onto the metal fuel lines that came off the regulator and the metal lines coming off the fuel tank sending unit. It made plumbing to them much easier and only cost about $5 each installed.

I actually re-used stock fuel lines by cutting them, beading them to accept rubber hose (SAE 30R9):




Note that return line in this photo has collapsed and was later replaced with a good one. The other end of supply and return hoses I installed appropriate -6AN fittings.



Supply line goes into a T with fuel pressure gauge.

Photos were taken during mock-up stage some two years ago.


//RF

[work2play84]

hey guys this is the best post in the world has helped me alot so far! ok im working with a 1989 chevy k1500 4x4 im swapping motor/trans/t-case into a 1965 chevy 4x4! the question i have is on the vss witch is in the tail housing of the transfercase can i wire it directly wire it to the ecm A10? the reason im asking is becouse i dont see a drac module anywhere on the truck it looks like maybe it is in the cluster but i took it apart and there isnt a green box like the pictures here! i have also seen those little white boxes doesnt seem to have that eather! so any help is greatly appriciated ! thanks to cjracing for starting up this great tool for everyone! JD

[rfmaster]

Hey play84

Well for your swap to work properly ECM needs 2000 ppm square pulse signal from DRAC module or alternatively from aftermarket retrofit VSS module. GM typically used 40 tooth gear inside the transmission tailshaft for VSS to pick up. VSS in turn sends VSS pulses 40 times per revolution of the transmission output shaft to the DRAC module (1992+).
Since your donor is 1989 it should have cable driven speedometer cable attached to the trany tail housing. Get an inline 2000 ppm VSS from JTR and connect one of the two outputs to A10 of ECM and the other should be grounded.

//RF

[work2play84]

thanks for the info rf this doesnt have a cable driven speedo it has a plugin on the tail shaft of the transfercase its a ppl and yellow wire ? thats what has got my confused and ive opened up the cluster and there isnt a green box like ppl have posted on the form here! now on my other truck is a 1992 it has the white box under the ecm but this one doesnt have that eather so im not sure if its a 4x4 deal or what ? thanks JD

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by work2play84

thanks for the info rf this doesnt have a cable driven speedo it has a plugin on the tail shaft of the transfercase its a ppl and yellow wire ? thats what has got my confused and ive opened up the cluster and there isnt a green box like ppl have posted on the form here! now on my other truck is a 1992 it has the white box under the ecm but this one doesnt have that eather so im not sure if its a 4x4 deal or what ? thanks JD

Ok Lets take this step by step.

1) The 1965 truck has a conventional style speedometer with a spedo cable that plugs into a tail shaft.

2) The donor is 1989 K1500 4x4 truck (350?). IRC in 1989 trucks used a cable driven speedometer with a separate VSS module (I could be wrong here as I am going from memory). Here is where things get confusing as GM used a plug in VSS sensor to get speed data to ECM and cruise computer. To resolve this confusion - take a picture of your donor setup, in particular look for a spedo cable at the output of the trany (driver side) and two wire sensor plugged into a transfer case. This two wire sensor should have light green-black and purple-white wires going to this plug. Try to take quality photos and post them here.... Take as many photos as possible.



//RF

[work2play84]

got some pics rf now the 65 has no speedo wasnt really worryed about it just use a tach! sorry yea it is a 5.7 and has the 1227747 ecm


heres some tranny






t-case





heres the pigtail




this is the wires from the sensor on the t-case were it plugs into the bulkhead



heres some engine

[work2play84]

here is the cluster if you need anymore or spec stuff just let me know ill get them thanks again for the help!

[68 TT]

This is a new body style variation of the electronic speedo dash. No mechanical speedometer cable. The ECM tells the speedo what to do.

The purple & yellow twisted pair of wires are the VSS output to the ECM.

Can you give us the ECM model number and broadcast code off the ECM sticker?

[mcbassin]

Originally Posted by work2play84

hey guys this is the best post in the world has helped me alot so far! ok im working with a 1989 chevy k1500 4x4 im swapping motor/trans/t-case into a 1965 chevy 4x4! the question i have is on the vss witch is in the tail housing of the transfercase can i wire it directly wire it to the ecm A10? the reason im asking is becouse i dont see a drac module anywhere on the truck it looks like maybe it is in the cluster but i took it apart and there isnt a green box like the pictures here! i have also seen those little white boxes doesnt seem to have that eather! so any help is greatly appriciated ! thanks to cjracing for starting up this great tool for everyone! JD

You have all the components there to make very cool retrofit. You will love this set up in your 65. Please keep the pics coming. And don't worry these guys on here are experts and can get you through the build with no problems.

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by 68 TT

This is a new body style variation of the electronic speedo dash. No mechanical speedometer cable. The ECM tells the speedo what to do.

The purple & yellow twisted pair of wires are the VSS output to the ECM.

Can you give us the ECM model number and broadcast code off the ECM sticker?

I hate to say but this is not entirely correct. 87 to 89 Full-size trucks used a programmable DRAC module that is incorporated into the instrument panel. Starting '89 all Chevy trucks with rear wheel anti-lock brakes used electronic speedometers. Vehicle speed is monitored by a sensor (AC VSS) mounted on the output shaft of the transmission, where a speedometer cable would normally be installed (exception being 4x4). The signal generated by that sensor (40 pulses per driveshaft revolution) goes to the DRAC (blue and yellow wires) which further divides and conditions the signal for the electronic speedometer, ECM, cruise control and anti-lock brakes. Because of numerous gear ratios and tires there are different DRAC modules. Back in those days switching to taller tires caused a lot of grief as anti lock computer would flake out (same went for cruise control).

In 4x4 applications the VSS is mounted in a transfer case. This VSS (supplies 40 pulse AC signal per shaft revolution) can not be used without DRAC module since DRAC ultimately supplies 2000 ppm signal to ECM.

There are several issues that should be considered before installing donor drive line into '65.

First 700R4 have been known to have weak 3-4 band as well as many other weaknesses identified elsewhere on this board. All of them can be easily corrected by a competent trany shop while you have drive line out. It does not cost too much as long as hard parts are not damaged. The choice is yours.

Second. To get a functioning speedometer in your 65 you'll have to perform a minor retrofit. 700R4 that you have was configured for 4x4 duty with special output shaft adapter to transfer case (NP208???) which does not provide for conventional mechanical speedometer mounting flange! The only other place to get mechanical speedometer drive is from transfer case and that will depend on a transfer case. You'll have to figure out which transfer case you have - search 4x4 forums for speedometer retrofit thereafter. In the end you may find that having mechanical speedometer in your 65 may not be possible.

Third. To get ECM working right you'll have to extract DRAC module from your instrument cluster - this module typically has a three letter coded label attached to it. You'll have to research cluster wiring for '89 to determine which wires from DRAC were used to power it up and to supply ECM with 2000ppm signal.

Fourth. From photo's it appears that you have lots cut wires in your harness. Make a list of color and wire gauge of these cut wires. This way we can figure out what was cut and how to fix it.

Fifth. Clean up - it is a lot easier to work on engine that does not have oil leaks! Sorry, to point out obvious stuff.

Post your questions and findings - this very interesting since this is a very first 4x4 TBI retrofit!

//RF

[work2play84]

ok ill get a list of the wires! now on the drac mod is it built into the Circuit Board on the cluster ? becouse ive taken it apart and the only external thing besides the lights is the motor to run the miles on the cluster! so i donno would it just be best to get one of the white box type dracs? or would that work? now i do have axcess to the whole truck witch the motor combo came from so if i need to get any pics or anything from it to help guys let me know. the guy i bough the motor from allready had pulled the motor all i did was pull the interior harness with the data link connector! but i talked him out of the cluster lol! here is the tag on the ecm



heres the donor was a rollover

[rfmaster]

Play84

I did a bit more research into 89 VSS buffer module / DRAC. For this early generation of electronic instrument clusters (nicknamed moonies) VSS buffer circuitry is built into the cluster itself. Changing rear end gear ratio or tire height involves changing configuration of the eight wire connector that plugs into instrument panel circuit board connector. From your perspective this is not adaptable to your 65.

As an alternative you can get the DRAC or VSSB unit from 1990-1995 GM trucks, vans, and SUVs with the electronic vehicle speed sensor. These are standalone modules can be easily reprogrammed to match your tire/gear ratio combination. For more technical details this is a good read:
http://www.tbichips.com/drac/
TBI Astros (very plentiful at my local JY's) are a great source for these modules.

As this point of your transplant I would address all other issues and problems first. IMHO, you can get a running truck without VSS, but its performance will not be up to par without functioning VSS circuit. Just keep this in mind...

Another way to get around all of the above DRAC module issue is to figure out if your transfer case can drive old fashion speedometer cable. Then you can get inline 2000ppm VSS which supplies directly to ECM and your speedometer in 65 works correctly!!!


//RF

[68 TT]

Originally Posted by work2play84

hey guys this is the best post in the world has helped me alot so far! ok im working with a 1989 chevy k1500 4x4 im swapping motor/trans/t-case into a 1965 chevy 4x4! the question i have is on the vss witch is in the tail housing of the transfercase can i wire it directly wire it to the ecm A10? the reason im asking is becouse i dont see a drac module anywhere on the truck it looks like maybe it is in the cluster but i took it apart and there isnt a green box like the pictures here! i have also seen those little white boxes doesnt seem to have that eather! so any help is greatly appriciated ! thanks to cjracing for starting up this great tool for everyone! JD

Have you looked at the driver side drop vs. passenger side drop transfer case issue yet? If not this may be the way to get your mechanical speedo problem solved too. Find an 87 to 89 Suburban or Blazer and it should have the DRAC you need and the mechanical speedometer passenger side drop transfer case too.

[work2play84]

so i can use the white box type drac thats usually mounted under the ecm?guys thanks alot for the info and research im gonna stick that in the back of my mind and go ahead with the swap! also 68tt i have a set of dana 60s i was going to put under it but its driverside pumkin is why i was going to use this t case! is anyone using autometer or aftermaket guages? wondering if the stock senders would work or not? also the park/n switch on the bottom of the column what shoud i do here? any ideas?

[pancake]

Hi Guys,

After thinking about my intake manifold leaks I decided to by a Edelbrock Manifold #3701, a TBI adapter plate #2296, and some new fuel fittings.

I also ordered a new distruibtor because my old one had cracked wires inside and it needed a cap and rotor...was eaiser for me to order a new one then mess with fixing the wiring.

Oh....and a fuel pressure gauge

The parts should be here Friday and I will have it installed this weekend. I will keep you updated on the progress and will post before and after pictures when I am finished.

Thanks again for the help, Pancake.

[pancake]

Hello again guys,

Well I received the parts today (intake) and I found that my stock EGR will not bolt-up to the intake....I called Summit and they do not offer anything to adapt my EGR to the intake. It seems like one issue after another. I knew that it would not be very easy, but I did not expect to run into this many problems!!

Do you people have any suggestions?

Can I eliminate the EGR? This would be the simplest thing to do, and then I could use my old intake and save $165.

Do I need the EGR? Will I have to get a new chip if I eliminate it?

I was so close to getting it going!!

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated...Thanks again

[cjracing15]

Pancake I belive you can run this without egr but you will have to get a chip burned with the egr turned off.
I this is the way you would like to go you can talk to Brain at tbichips.com This is a great site and he has been awsome to work with, in my opinon.

[work2play84]

ok guys his a list of wires that go to the bulk head connector on the harness

ppl- solid think a 10 guage -from what i can tell starter?
red-solid 10 guage -battery pos?
pink-solid 10 -??
tan-solid 16 -?
tan-white stripe-16 -?
blk-wht stripe -16-?
grn-solid-16-?
blk-solid-16-?
brn-solid-16-?
ppl-solid-16-?
ppl/wht and yellow-vss


now the under dash harness wires except the ones to the dl connector
ppl/w- 16?
gry/w-16?
org/blk-16?
pnk/wht-16?
ppl- solid-16?
brn/yel-16?


thanks alot guys for any help i can get a pic of the under dash wires if needed thanks JD

[68 TT]

Originally Posted by pancake

Hello again guys,

Well I received the parts today (intake) and I found that my stock EGR will not bolt-up to the intake....I called Summit and they do not offer anything to adapt my EGR to the intake. It seems like one issue after another. I knew that it would not be very easy, but I did not expect to run into this many problems!!

Do you people have any suggestions?

Can I eliminate the EGR? This would be the simplest thing to do, and then I could use my old intake and save $165.

Do I need the EGR? Will I have to get a new chip if I eliminate it?

I was so close to getting it going!!

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated...Thanks again

Eliminating EGR seems simple but has some pretty big repercussions in the tune. It effects timing and fuel economy. There is a pretty in depth discussion about this on thirdgen.org

You can do without it but I wouldn't if at all possible. Maybe you can find a different vintage one to install that will fit the intake.

A mail order tune will have a hard time correcting for the missing EGR. Every engine will react differently to timing changes due to the vehicle package it is pulling around.

You can get all the stuff needed to burn your own chips and data log your running engine for under $150. Check out the DIY PROM section at thridgen. It's not that hard to make minor changes and it is really nice to be able to data log what is going on in your engine too.

[pancake]

I was looking around Rockauto and found several EGR valves. I have no idea which on will work.

I was looking for a 1983 EGR valve and came up with several options...

Does anyone know which one will work for my application? (350ci 4x4 and it will have a full manual valve body automatic tranny, no emission requirments, only a trail rig, will not be driven on the road)

Will this work ? DELPHI Part # EG10074 OE No 17113439, 17084818
or ACDELCO Part # 2141441 (high altitude)


What is the difference between all these EGR valves?

Do I need a high altitude EGR living in Colorado and driving the 4x4 at high altitude (over 10,000 feet)?

I have no problem using the new intake manifold if I can find an EGR valve that will fit it and work for me.

Thanks again, Pancake

This is what the EGR valve gasket that came with the new intake looks like..I need to get a EGR to match this base.

[rfmaster]

Pancake

All points raised by 68 TT are valid, but since your application is for offroad a mail tune (grhhh) is a simple (quick) solution. Otherwise learn how to burn your own EPROM's, but that requires EPROM writer - reader and purchase (old 2732A are unreliable and hard to find) flash memory adapters and chips from Moates.
Disabling EGR in EPROM is very simple (one byte) - increasing EGR vs. CTS enabling temperature from 60C to maximum (155C). No other alterations to EPROM contents are required.

//RF

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by work2play84

ok guys his a list of wires that go to the bulk head connector on the harness

ppl- solid think a 10 guage -from what i can tell starter?
red-solid 10 guage -battery pos?
pink-solid 10 -??
tan-solid 16 -?
tan-white stripe-16 -?
blk-wht stripe -16-?
grn-solid-16-?
blk-solid-16-?
brn-solid-16-?
ppl-solid-16-?
ppl/wht and yellow-vss


now the under dash harness wires except the ones to the dl connector
ppl/w- 16?
gry/w-16?
org/blk-16?
pnk/wht-16?
ppl- solid-16?
brn/yel-16?


thanks alot guys for any help i can get a pic of the under dash wires if needed thanks JD

play84
Thanks for posting photos of your harness - to get that stock harness in shape for installation on your 65 rig will require some serious gutting. And I am not talking about deer!

The first photo posted (with a twisted pair) contains several circuits that your 65 simply does not have or wired all together differently - AC, temp sensor, etc. Lucky for you I have recently pulled a complete engine harness of '90 burban. The 89 and 90 harness are very similar and this should help us to guide you along. I'll be posting photos of my raw harness after I have chance to mark it.
To do this transplant right (or at least for me to provide you with a correct advise) I'll need to know the state of your 65 engine compartment wiring harness. This way we can figure how to incorporate 89 harness ends with your 65. Also, be aware that 89 supplies a lot more current to the fuse box and HEI tends to draw more current than the old points use to pull.

Here is my first assessment of wires cut from bulkhead connector (next to PB) - it is incomplete at this time! It should be noted that there are no wires directly related to ECM passing through that bulkhead connector (vss gets conditioned inside instrument cluster).
Color - gauge - Function
purple - 10 AWG - Starter S terminal ?
Red - 10 AWG - Battery via fuse link in harness (via starter)
pink - 10 AWG - Ignition Coil (look for a funky white one pin connector)
tan-solid 16 -?
tan-white - 16 AWG - (Possibly set EST - look for a single circuit connector?)
blk-wht stripe -16-?
grn-solid - 16 AWG - possibly temp gauge in instrument?
blk-solid-16-?
brn-solid-16-?
ppl-solid-16-?
ppl/wht and yellow - 16 AWG - vss signal

//RF