Restoring Rusty

[rusty76]

You know are the frame brackets left and right? I put a sway bar on my truck and never did paint it. I just put it on the truck. I couldn't tell a difference with it really. Although I never did push it hard. Looking good dude.

[Gregski]

Originally Posted by rusty76

You know are the frame brackets left and right?

I thought about that, but that would mean my donor truck had two of the same kind. Plus LMC Truck which is usually good in their diagrams does not list a left and right one when selling them, just says you need two.

[Gregski]

so with two light coats and two medium coats on the anti sway bar and brackets we have an hour to kill before shooting the clear coat

what to do, what to do? too early for a beer... [hmmm I know] lets finally organize our Car Repair AParatus aka C.R.AP.

I don't know about you, but I struggle with this type of stuff, especially since it seems like there is ONE of Everything, as opposed to wrenches go here, sockets go there, screw drivers over there, etc., etc.

so do we hang all this stuff up on this there peg board, or do we build some shelves for it, or do we shove it in a tool box? how do you handle your [ahem] C.R.AP.?

[flashed]

Mine is scattered about my shop in all directions ,I hope to get it organized soon though.

[Gregski]

So I've been running this cheap ($125) Proform distributor part number 66941BK for about a year. I say cheap because they make a bit more expensive one part number 141-682 for $150 that I wish I would have bought instead.

Now mine works fine, great actually, but it feels cheap and the guts are very clunky, feel so loose that I think my engine ticking noise is coming from the distributor. I also noticed that my weights do not have any plastic bushings on them, yet the kit came with two different pairs.

So I went out and bought this PROFORM Advance Spring and Weight Kit (Made in Taiwan) I figure I'll try a different weight and bushing set and play around with the different spring settings as well. I figure maybe I'll learn a thing or two about timing curves etc. can't hurt right

[Gregski]

All curves are based on a 24* mechanical advance at the craftshaft.

Did I mention this kit was Made in Taiwan?

[Gregski]

also I think the Taiwanies have a sick sense of humor cause look how they packaged the weights, I don't think that's how they go on, I think they have to go on upside down (shinny side down) like in my pic below

Left - my original set

Right - the new weights from the kit how they should go one

difficult to tell but my old weights (though I call them cheap) are machined way nicer than the Taiwaneese ones, the Proform kit would not even fit the Proform distributor, I had to use a rat tail file to open up the two holes more in the center plate to get it to slide on the two studs, shame I tell you!

That kit is junk, don't waste your money on it.

[Gregski]

OK, I tried the Medium Silver springs with the 600 - 2800 RPM range and I swear they only gave me 8* of Total Advance. I tested them in two configurations:

Test 1 - 0* Initial Timing gave me 8* Total Timing (no vacum, engine all reved up to 3500 RPM) even with my vacuum canister hooked up to give us some more advnace, the truck did not run good, felt under powered, and choked/sputtered/backfired under acceleration a couple times

Test 2 - 10* Initial Timing gave me 18* Total Timing (no vacuum, engine all reved up to 3500 RPM) also with the vacuum canister hooked up, the truck ran better but I would not say good, not full power, I think may have backfired under acceleration a time or two

[68Timber]

Are the bushings on in that pic?

[rich weyand]

The setup that worked best for me is 16 base, 20 centrifugal, giving 36 total, and 15 vacuum.

[Gregski]

Originally Posted by 68Timber

Are the bushings on in that pic?

Yes, tiny little black plastic thingies under the outside studs of the little springs, hard to see

[Gregski]

Originally Posted by rich weyand

The setup that worked best for me is 16 base, 20 centrifugal, giving 36 total, and 15 vacuum.

Thanks Rich, so what was your what I would call All In Timining, that would be your Base + Centrifugal + Vacuum?

I ask because before I messed with anything I had a similar setup

16 + 23 centrifugal, giving me 32 total somehow (maybe reading error on my part)

But my All In Timing was 55*, which I never understood since there should be little to no Vacuum advance at 3500 RPM so how could 10 Initial plus 23 Mechanical add up to 55, that leaves me with 15 vacuum at WOT, made no sense, so I started messing with it

I think for starters I need to get a timing tape put on my harmonic balancer so I don't rely on my digital Snap On timing light to get the Total Timing numbers, as that's tricky to do with one light

[Gregski]

a buddy of mine gave me this CRANE CAMS Adjustable Vacuum Advance Kit part number 99600-1 it comes with a set of springs

[Gregski]

so what did I do? I went out and bought my own, ha ha, what do you do after you buy a cheap distributor and one cheap kit for it? well naturally you go out and buy another cheap kit for it, a Financial Wizard I'm not!

Yup, another Made in Taiwan Proform kit part number 66952C. Now hear me out, I really couldn't tell if the canister on my distributor was adjustable or not, who ever said well just look inside that tinny vacuum hole and you will be able to tell, has never done it themselves or has Superman vision, cause I couldn't tell even with the distributor off the truck outside with the sun shinning and me using a flashlight to see whats in there, so I have no idea how they can see in there with the unit still in the truck, IMPOSSIBLE I tell ya

anyway plus I wanted to have a Proform unit to go with the Proform distributor, I am just built that way is all I am sayin', possibly some of you may relate

[Woodyboat]

Originally Posted by Gregski

and soon enuff those was down to bare metal

now Greg why you is working so hard taking them down to bare metal, well cause I gotta tell you in my experience 100% of the time or more, (LOL) they got rust beneath the paint, I kid you not, so I exterminate that cancer

This is a perfect example of how many friends and well wishers often do not understand the desire to get something done correctly. I fully agree with you here. I feel that, if I am to go this extent, finishing the project halfway is pointless. It only takes very little extra time to get the job done right!

Yeah, I feel you here.

[Gregski]

using the provided little alan wrench I was able to confirm that indeed my old vacuum canister is NOT adjustable

so then I decided to see how much adjustability is in that new canister

first Pic is where we started turning from we'll say 1:00 o'clock

second Pic is where we ended up after 4 counter clockwise turns (to the left) we ended up somewhere around 8:00 o'clock

so it has about 4 1/2 turns of adjustability

[Gregski]

Originally Posted by Woodyboat

This is a perfect example of how many friends and well wishers often do not understand the desire to get something done correctly. I fully agree with you here. I feel that, if I am to go this extent, finishing the project halfway is pointless. It only takes very little extra time to get the job done right!

Yeah, I feel you here.

Oh I hear ya brotha, I cringe when they paint over grease and dirt, sometimes I see trucks for a quick sale like that and I think great, now you wasted couple hundred bucks on spray paint thinking you made the truck nicer and want to jack up the price for that, yet you just made my life more difficult as a buyer cause now I will not only have to take the dirt, grime, grease, and rust off but now your stupid coat of paint as well, ha ha - these are the same guys who spray paint stuff while holding it in one hand and shooting it with a rattle can in the other, but wait it gets worse, then they go straight to mounting it on, not even dry, my goodness

[Gregski]

then it was time to remove my non adjustable vacuum canister

it is only held on with two philip head bolts made out of very soft metal I found out (surprise)

I don't think you have to remove the springs and weights first but I did to improve visibility plus as I said before, I wanted those cheap(er) parts off anyway

[Gregski]

I am not sure if one can tell a non adjustable canister (left) from an adjustable unit (right) simply by their outside physical appearance, but here they are side by side, the adjustable one does have that hex section on the canister where the other one doesn't

[Gregski]

and soon enuff we had the new canister in place on the distributor

this is an easy job, especially with the unit off the truck and on a workbench

[Gregski]

and the original weights and springs back on the distributor

it is a task I would recommend everyone attempt at least once, yes even if you don't need an adjustable vacuum canister or different weights and springs, I say that to make you appreciate the newer distributor less systems, ha ha

its sort of like learning long hand math first before the teacher allows you to use the calculator, (well shoot I know what you is thinking, you want that than "treat" yourself to a points distributor, I get it - but lets be reasonable here, we are not Barbarians, LOL)

... well I would love to test this thing, but we got a gaping hole in our transmission where the speedo drive used to be, remember we is still waiting on the new 43T driven gear and some seals to stop that fluid leak

[enaberif]

Just as refresher for the Gregski ..

16* is your base timing

You will have mechanical timing which is the weights and springs which you need to add up to 32*. So your distributor weights/spring combo should yield 32* at 2500-3000rpm

After that you then have your vacuum advance timing which should yield around 55* of timing when your driving. If you are within these realms the truck should run pretty good.

Last note how much up and down play does that distributor have? If you buy a shim kit you can reduce this for a more stable distributor.

[Woodyboat]

Originally Posted by Gregski

Oh I hear ya brotha, I cringe when they paint over grease and dirt, sometimes I see trucks for a quick sale like that and I think great, now you wasted couple hundred bucks on spray paint thinking you made the truck nicer and want to jack up the price for that, yet you just made my life more difficult as a buyer cause now I will not only have to take the dirt, grime, grease, and rust off but now your stupid coat of paint as well, ha ha - these are the same guys who spray paint stuff while holding it in one hand and shooting it with a rattle can in the other, but wait it gets worse, then they go straight to mounting it on, not even dry, my goodness

This “taking a shortcut wherever possible” mentality is REALLY present among the classic and antique boat people. Who doesn’t love viewing a beautifully restored antique Chris Craft or Hackercraft? But most folks who want to own such a beauty have absolutely no clue how to go about restoring it ... or even maintaining it. An 80 year old wooden boat is going to be a finicky beast even in the best of times. And so, we always see these beautiful boats showing up at the shows that can barely make it away from the dock under their own power. AND, if your boat does get away from the dock, you DANG sure don't go past the breakwater! That's just suicide. There is consensus that is developing that runs like this:

“Ok folks, in order to enter this antique boat show, you must have your boats docked in the water the night before judging. All bilge pumps will remain off during the night and only the boats that are still floating in the morning, will be judged.”

Yes, there is a right way and a wrong way to do almost anything. To me, it always seems that, doing something the wrong way will eventually come back and bite you right in the tailbone every time.

On the other hand, if one restores his antique Chris correctly, that boat can go out on any lake and get slammed around just like a new modern fiberglass boat with absolutely no worries. And who wouldn't want to have THAT?

[Gregski]

Originally Posted by enaberif

Just as refresher for the Gregski ..

16* is your base timing

You will have mechanical timing which is the weights and springs which you need to add up to 32*. So your distributor weights/spring combo should yield 32* at 2500-3000rpm

After that you then have your vacuum advance timing which should yield around 55* of timing when your driving. If you are within these realms the truck should run pretty good.

Last note how much up and down play does that distributor have? If you buy a shim kit you can reduce this for a more stable distributor.

Thank you for that, however let me share with you an interesting observation, one that I have validated with a number of tests. The point that I will be making is that it is not that clear cut, Base Timing + Mechanical Timing, or in other words so far I have not seen such a thing as pure Base Timing, allow me to explain

It appears that Initial Timing (what you call Base Timing) always includes some Mechanical Timining aka advance. In my case my original Mechanical Advance Curve starts at around 800 RPM, so if my idle RPM is 850 I am already relying on mechanical advance in the initial 16*. This could explain why in my original configuration 16 Initial plus 24 Mechanical = 32* instead of 40* (that's because the initial 16 already has some of the 24 mechanical in it) hope I didn't just confuse the hiebie jibies out of somebody

If you look at the curve for the new weights, (pic above in the thread) it starts even earlier at 600 RPM, so for sure at 850 RPM idle we are using the mechanical advance. Now what muddies the waters a bit is crappy aftermarket inaccurate parts. Which I blame for 10 initial plus 8 mechanical = 18 (which really shows that their curve does not start at 600 RPM, lol)

Now looking at the GM HEI distributor part number 93440806 which I will be purchasing tomorrow (aka Pay Day) it's Mechanical Advance curve don't start till 1600 RPM - so we shall see how that all adds up

[Gregski]

Originally Posted by Woodyboat

This “taking a shortcut wherever possible” mentality is REALLY present among the classic and antique boat people. Who doesn’t love viewing a beautifully restored antique Chris Craft or Hackercraft? But most folks who want to own such a beauty have absolutely no clue how to go about restoring it ... or even maintaining it. An 80 year old wooden boat is going to be a finicky beast even in the best of times. And so, we always see these beautiful boats showing up at the shows that can barely make it away from the dock under their own power. AND, if your boat does get away from the dock, you DANG sure don't go past the breakwater! That's just suicide. There is consensus that is developing that runs like this:

“Ok folks, in order to enter this antique boat show, you must have your boats docked in the water the night before judging. All bilge pumps will remain off during the night and only the boats that are still floating in the morning, will be judged.”

Yes, there is a right way and a wrong way to do almost anything. To me, it always seems that, doing something the wrong way will eventually come back and bite you right in the tailbone every time.

On the other hand, if one restores his antique Chris correctly, that boat can go out on any lake and get slammed around just like a new modern fiberglass boat with absolutely no worries. And who wouldn't want to have THAT?

funny you bring up Chris Crafts as my newly retired father in law and a super muticulous fixer upper bought one in really bad condition and planned on restoring it, now he owned boats in the past so this was going to be his retirement gig, well after he spoke to an expert or two, they said after he is done in 10 years restoring that thing, it will be ready to sit at the museum cause they guranteed him it would still leak like a sieve, HA HA