47-55.1 Eliminate draft tube options

[TX3100Guy]

One step forward, two steps back.......

Engine runs on the new distributor, but I very quickly noticed no oil pressure. Checked all wiring to oil pressure sensor and gauge. Since all was well with wiring, I had a very bad feeling......

After considerable measurements and testing. The new distributor does not engage with the oil pump drive. It seems that while the measurement from the tip of the distributor shaft to the cam gear is correct and since the shaft has no collar on it preventing the shaft from dropping in, the shape of the shaft directly above the gear prevents the cam gear from fully seating, thus the oil pump drive never even touches. The old magneto shaft has a spacer above the cam gear that is smaller in circumference allowing the cam gear to fully seat and then permitting the oil shaft drive to be engaged.

I can use an old distributor shaft in my power drill and get both oil pressure and weeping along the length of the valve train, but with the distributor - nothing.

OLD SHAFT AND SPACING ABOVE CAM GEAR


NEW SHAFT AND LACK OF SPACING ABOVE CAM GEAR

[TX3100Guy]

I tapped out the pin holding the cam gear and with the cam gear removed, the shaft fits all the way down to the oil pump drive, but the top of the shaft tapers out and the hold down clamp isn't wide enough to accommodate the width of the shaft.

I'm a bit confused how without the cam gear the shaft is long enough, although unable to be held by the hold down clamp. Could it be the incorrect cam gear refusing to mesh with the oil pump gear?

[leegreen]

The slot in pump has to be lined up just right, the cam gear turns the shaft a bit as you insert it, is it possible that it is the end of the shaft hitting the top of the oil pump that is stopping it going further and not the spacer above the gear? The way I remember doing this....note relation between rotor and flat end of shaft, insert into block, note the angle of rotor with a felt pen on block, pull distributor out and use screwdriver to turn pump to match, put distributor back in and hopefully it drops into place.

The tang may not fully bottom into the oil pump, does lifting back up the thickness of the clamp leave enough overlap of pump and shaft?

the measurement to check is the distance from oil pump slot to cam gear on both engine and distributor.

[TX3100Guy]

Originally Posted by leegreen

The slot in pump has to be lined up just right, the cam gear turns the shaft a bit as you insert it, is it possible that it is the end of the shaft hitting the top of the oil pump that is stopping it going further and not the spacer above the gear? The way I remember doing this....note relation between rotor and flat end of shaft, insert into block, note the angle of rotor with a felt pen on block, pull distributor out and use screwdriver to turn pump to match, put distributor back in and hopefully it drops into place.

The tang may not fully bottom into the oil pump, does lifting back up the thickness of the clamp leave enough overlap of pump and shaft?

the measurement to check is the distance from oil pump slot to cam gear on both engine and distributor.

Thanks for all this, but I've put a number of distributors in a few engines and never had this issue. If I purposely misalign the oil pump tang on the distributor from the slot on the oil pump itself, the distributor will set in at exactly the same point as if I align them perfectly (I used a Sharpie to mark the depth of the shaft in the block)

Incidentally, witness marks on the cam gear seem to indicate that it is only seating about 1/8 of an inch of its 5/8 inch width.

If I align the oil pump drive shaft on the distributor with the oil pump slot, it will not seat any further. When I removed the cam gear from the shaft, the shaft went a full 1/2 inch deeper in the block and was clearly engaged with the oil pump. Using the

[TX3100Guy]

Here is a picture of the distributor shaft with Sharpie markings at the depth it drops in with the cam gear installed and a second line at the depth it will drop with the cam gear removed from the shaft. Also notice the slight witness marks on the cam gear at its bottom 1/8 of an inch.

[leegreen]

the marks you point out on the gear and looking at the two earlier pictures; maybe the teeth on new gear are not cut as deep as on the old gear?

[1project2many]

I believe I would check the OD of the lower portion of the distributor gear and try to locate specs or a known good part to confirm it is correct.

[dsraven]

if you could source an original dizzy, with the shaft and gear still on it, you could do a comparison and ensure everything is right before setting it back down in the hole. that way you're not as apt to wipe the crank bearings from lack of oil when testing. the shop doing your magneto may also appreciate the old dizzy for dimension checking.
maybe somebody on the site has a dizzy laying around that could do a gear OD and count the number of teeth on the gear and also the direction the gear is cut, just as a quick comparison check.

[TX3100Guy]

Originally Posted by dsraven

if you could source an original dizzy, with the shaft and gear still on it, you could do a comparison and ensure everything is right before setting it back down in the hole. that way you're not as apt to wipe the crank bearings from lack of oil when testing. the shop doing your magneto may also appreciate the old dizzy for dimension checking.
maybe somebody on the site has a dizzy laying around that could do a gear OD and count the number of teeth on the gear and also the direction the gear is cut, just as a quick comparison check.

I'm going to a huge automotive swap meet on Friday, hundreds of vendors and oodles of old car and old car guys. I will be on the lookout for an old distributor and/or shaft with gear intact for measurement purposes.

I'm convinced that the gear is the problem. When the magneto with the collar on the shaft was not dropping in because of the collar, I did extensive measuring using an old dizzy shaft (with no gear on it) that I used to run the oil pump with a drill. At that time, I came up with a total depth required from the bottom of the oil pump slot to the top of the block of 5 1/8 inches. Of course that collar on the magneto shaft was 1/2 inch too short, thus keeping the oil pump shaft from making contact.

Yesterday, after I took the cam gear off the new distributor shaft an was able to fully seat it, I marked the top of the shaft where it become wider (top Sharpie mark on the photo above), it measures at 5 1/8 inches. When I reinstall the cam gear and carefully insert the dizzy, it is 1/2 inch too short.

The mag failed to seat due to the collar on the shaft, I feel certain that the distributor isn't seating due to a cam gear mis-match. The mag is supposed to be worked on tomorrow, which means I might get it back late next week. I think I will have to wait until then to resolve the mystery.

I will search for a distributor Friday at the swap meet, but in the meantime if anyone has a distributor on the shelf, I would love to know the diameter of the gear, the depth of the gear splines, and the number of gear teeth.

[TX3100Guy]

Just for grins, I went out to the shop and measured the gear on the "compatible" distributor that I bought. Here are the details of the cam gear that doesn't seem to fit -

Gear diameter = 1 3/64"
Gear height = 5/8"
Gear depth = 7/64"
Number of gear teeth = 13

[1project2many]

I believe you are chasing the correct component. There are other tools that can help determine what's going on. If the angle or width of the teeth aren't correct you will see telltales on both sides of the distributor gear (blue arrows). If the depth of the teeth do not match you will see telltales between the distributor teeth (green arrow). If the diameter of the non-toothed portion of the gear is not correct you may see telltales at the bottom of the gear (red arrows).

White lithium grease can be used as a gear marking compound to aid in understanding gear contact. Brushing this compound in a fairly thin film on the gear then installing the distributor will cause contact marks to show on the distributor. It may be helpful to turn over the engine once or twice without starting it to get a better pattern.

I look at the marks on the mag shaft and gear and wonder what's happened to make them (red circles). They may not tell a story related to this problem though. When I enlarge both pictures it looks like the mag gear teeth may be narrower. Maybe it's a trick of the lighting?

[dsraven]

it would be interesting to compare an original, used and not rebuilt, dizzy to your mag and your dizzy to see if there are differences and if the old one fits the engine you have. possibly something internal to the engine is not exactly the same. was the cam or the oil pump replaced during the rebuild?

[TX3100Guy]

I am so confused. Today my son and I went to a huge automotive swap meet in the Dallas area. We found an old original distributor from a 261 engine according the old guy we bought it from for $20.

I bought it to get measurements from and to see if it fit in the engine so that I could determine what isn't right with the distributor I recently purchased and/or know definitively what to expect in the new shaft for the magneto. Here is a picture of what I bought -



Now to explain the two arrows pointing to marks I made on the shaft with a Sharpie. I dropped the distributor into the engine block and worked like hell to get it to drop into the oil pump drive. No amount of movement would allow the dizzy to drop into the oil pump drive. I even made sure to try different alignments of the shaved side of the shaft to see if that made a difference.

When I couldn't get the distributor to drop in, I then punched out the pin holding the cam gear to the shaft and removed the gear from the shaft. Now when I drop the distributor in, I'm able to properly align the oil pump drive with the shaft and it drop in almost another 3/8 - 1/2 inch. That is the top Sharpie line.

The cam gear on this shaft measures exactly the same and the gear on the new distributor shaft and the number of splines are the same. The only thing I can surmise is the gear on these distributors is not aligning with the matching gear on the cam shaft. Am I missing somehting?

[dsraven]

If you look at the housing on the dizzy you will see there is a hole there and I gotta assume it is an oil hole to allow oil to get into the dizzy housing and lube the bushings. Now, with that in mind I would look down in the dizzy hole in the block and see if there is a corresponding oil supply hole. If so, take a depth dimension from the top of the hole down to that oil gallery hole. Then take that dimension and measure up on the dizzy from the oil hole and the groove machined into the housing and wrap some tape or whatever you feel will work to mark the depth required to align the oil groove on the dizzy with that oil supply hole in the block. Then drop the dizzy, without the gear, into the hole to that marked depth. See if the dizzy shaft engages the oil pump properly. The dizzy doesn't need to bottom out on the oil pump drive, it just needs to engage enough to drive the pump without worry of disengagement. If it is good at that depth then maybe install a gear clamp on the housing at that depth so you can't drop it in too far or not far enough. Then install the gear and try it again. If it doesn't drop in right away it may be because the gear needs to mesh with the cam gear and also the oil pump needs to mesh with the dizzy shaft. It may take a little bit of slowly turning the engine over by hand, plugs out to make it easy, in order to get everything to mesh up. I gotta think that if the rebuilder had it running to test then they would have checked oil pressure, so it may be a matter of fiddling with it till things drop into place. The oil gallery supply hole and the lube port in the dizzy may be the "tell' for correct dizzy depth.

[TX3100Guy]

Originally Posted by dsraven

If you look at the housing on the dizzy you will see there is a hole there and I gotta assume it is an oil hole to allow oil to get into the dizzy housing and lube the bushings. Now, with that in mind I would look down in the dizzy hole in the block and see if there is a corresponding oil supply hole. If so, take a depth dimension from the top of the hole down to that oil gallery hole. Then take that dimension and measure up on the dizzy from the oil hole and the groove machined into the housing and wrap some tape or whatever you feel will work to mark the depth required to align the oil groove on the dizzy with that oil supply hole in the block. Then drop the dizzy, without the gear, into the hole to that marked depth. See if the dizzy shaft engages the oil pump properly. The dizzy doesn't need to bottom out on the oil pump drive, it just needs to engage enough to drive the pump without worry of disengagement. If it is good at that depth then maybe install a gear clamp on the housing at that depth so you can't drop it in too far or not far enough. Then install the gear and try it again. If it doesn't drop in right away it may be because the gear needs to mesh with the cam gear and also the oil pump needs to mesh with the dizzy shaft. It may take a little bit of slowly turning the engine over by hand, plugs out to make it easy, in order to get everything to mesh up. I gotta think that if the rebuilder had it running to test then they would have checked oil pressure, so it may be a matter of fiddling with it till things drop into place. The oil gallery supply hole and the lube port in the dizzy may be the "tell' for correct dizzy depth.

Good plan! I will investigate on Monday, I have my granddaughter coming over tomorrow and I'd rather spend time with her than my 1953 automotive mistress as my wife refers to the truck.

[dsraven]

haha, thats a good one. mistress.
my grandkids have many miles on my old project. they sit in there and shift gears, turn every knob available, etc. I keep some stuff in there, like seats etc, just for that purpose. it's memories they will have for a long time. my grandson loves my shop. he comes in the door and stands still, eyes closed, and just smells the shop smells. his mom asks him what he's doing. he just says "it smells so good in here". lol.
kids grow up too fast. spend quality time with them when you can.

[TX3100Guy]

Originally Posted by dsraven

haha, thats a good one. mistress.
my grandkids have many miles on my old project. they sit in there and shift gears, turn every knob available, etc. I keep some stuff in there, like seats etc, just for that purpose. it's memories they will have for a long time. my grandson loves my shop. he comes in the door and stands still, eyes closed, and just smells the shop smells. his mom asks him what he's doing. he just says "it smells so good in here". lol.
kids grow up too fast. spend quality time with them when you can.

That funny. My adult son (42) says when he comes into my shop that he loves the smell because it reminds him of "Pap's" garage (my Dad who passed away 27 years ago). I'm currently teaching my granddaughter to drive and have already showed her how to change the oil in a car. I've promised to get her a used car once she gets her license. When she was younger, she would sit in my car and ask to turn the radio on, she would sit in it while I washed it.

[leegreen]

Where did the cam come from? Is it the one that was in the engine before you sent it off to be redone?
It seems cam gear/distributor gear must be the problem area.

Maybe this will help confirm length is not an issue:
I was over where we have some parts stored and spotted a distributor in the trunk of '46 parts car that has a 216 in it, it was sold alongside a 46 with a '54 261 installed. So I don't know what exactly this distributor is from. But 216, 235 and 261 distributors are supposed to fit all the same, but with different weights on 261 advance. And different materials for gears early vs late distributors

As you can see I had nothing with me to measure with. Assuming guys in Texas might have a problem laying hands on a Canuck 20, I converted for you:

edit, well that picture sucks. It shows measurements from the bottom of hold down clamp:
Oil hole 0.75"
bottom of housing where it curves in 2.0"
center of pin for gear 3.0"
overall length 4.8"

I got 1.1" on the diameter of the gear. but there will be some parallax error...lens was about 24" from distributor. So maybeee close to your 1 3/64


This evening I spotted this http://devestechnet.com/Home/HEIgnition He makes an observation about different cam lobe shapes before after 1954, sharp vs rounded corners to lobes. This may be helpful to date early vs late distributors.

[TX3100Guy]

Lee, thanks for the info.

This morning I used the depth measuring section of my digital calipers to get the internal measurement of the block opening to the cam gear and oil pump drive. I wouldn't call this 100% precise, but its pretty darn close.





as best I can tell, the shaft portion that goes to the oil pump drive slot on both the new distributor and the OEM one I bought at the swap meet are 1/4 inch too short.

I have calls into my engine builder to confirm the cam gear version and any change to the oil pump itself. I also have a call into the magneto folks (Joe Hunt) to get them to give me some measurements on what I sent them.

[dsraven]

when you say the drive is 1/4" short, is that until it bottoms in the pump drive? what is the dimension from the top of the block hole to the top of the pump drive? if the dizzy is installed to the correct depth will the pump drive section be engaged or not? if yes, by how much?

[TX3100Guy]

Originally Posted by dsraven

when you say the drive is 1/4" short, is that until it bottoms in the pump drive? what is the dimension from the top of the block hole to the top of the pump drive? if the dizzy is installed to the correct depth will the pump drive section be engaged or not? if yes, by how much?

From the best I can tell, the shaft is 1/4" shorter than if it could bottom out into the oil pump. I know that it doesn't need to fully engage to the bottom, just enough to drive the oil pump.

However, even taking the 1/4" into account, the blade portion of the shaft never touches the oil pump drive. It seem there is something else keeping the gears from fully meshing. I highly suspect that they are engaging, but not settling in deep enough to allow the shaft to even drop 1/2 the distance into the oil pump drive.

[dsraven]

Like LeeGreen suggests, it would be good to know if the cam was possibly swapped when the engine was done.
When installing the dizzy, did you do a full turn on the crank to give the dizzy and oil pump drives some wiggle room to find themselves? I have had trouble with different engines over the years that just take some effort, over and above the norm, in order to mesh those drives. Since the builder ran it I gotta assume there was oil pressure so I think it's worth another shot to see if you can get a dizzy to drop in and mesh.

[leegreen]

It does seem gear compatibility / alignment could be the culprit.

What do you know about the oil pump? You have speed stuff on there from back in the day, maybe the pump is something unique and needs a longer distributor shaft

[TX3100Guy]

It appear that @leegreen and @dsraven are both correct. It was gear alignment that was the issue. After bumping the starter the new distributor did finally drop in enough to engage the oil pump drive. I have to say, I tried dropping the new dizzy in at least two dozen times with no luck at all. Then I bumped the starter and it slipped right in after a few more tries. I even lifted it up and intentionally misaligned the shaft to the oil pump and it wouldn't drop far enough, when i aligned the shaft to the pump and tried again it dropped all the way in.

Now the next task is to wire the distributor back in, re-gap the plugs, and get the engine running (with oil pressure this time) and move on.

Many thanks to everyone that provided guidance.

[leegreen]

glad you got it sorted. If this stuff was easy everyone would be driving around in old trucks.