47-55.1 Eliminate draft tube options

[dsraven]

good to hear you got it figured. now the wiring and you're set.
darn dizzy's anyway. I've had a few that had that problem with line up.

[TX3100Guy]

Confession time. Sixty years ago, the ten year old me, would have started this update with "Bless me father for I have sinned". The me of today would utter words that would get me banned from this forum for perpetuity.

Here goes. When I bought the new distributor, I swore that I had installed it properly and was more concerned with ensuring that I had re-wired the truck properly to service the distributor versus the magneto that was off getting the correct shaft installed. Because I was working alone (as I do 95% of the time), I used a remote starter to run the engine.

Once the engine started, I concerned myself with advancing/retarding the distributor to get the engine to run smoother. Then I. jumped over to the carb and realized that the electric choke was set improperly and fussed with it for a bit. Finally, I grabbed my laser temp gun to check the temp of the thermostat and the radiator to ensure that my electric fan came on when it should. At this time, I heard a sticking hydraulic lifter, so I took the valve cover off and squirted some engine oil over the valve train and onto each push rod. Only then did I think of checking the oil pressure gauge on the dash. Big f'ing mistake on my part. The engine had "0" oil pressure.

I quickly shut the engine off and started investigating the distributor and its length relative to the depth required to drive the oil pump.

I spoke with the engine builder today and confessed my sin to him. He asked if the engine still rotated, it does, both with the starter and with me using a screw driver to inch the flywheel a few teeth at time to get to #1 TDC. He suggested I drain the oil into a clean receptacle and look for metal. I drained the oil and filtered it with a blue shop towel. There are clearly slivers of metal, the split washer in the photo was put there by me, to give something to compare the size, its from a 1/4-20 bolt.

Tomorrow I plan on pulling the oil pan and unbolting one of the main caps to look for damage to the bearings. Wish me luck.

[dsraven]

oh man, you musta been sick when you realized what happened. how long do you estimate the engine ran with no oil pressure?
the rod bearings will be the ones that will sieze up or fail first, usually, as they are typically a smaller bearing with a heavy hit on every power stroke and usually the last one to get oil is the one furthest from the oil pump. number 1 likely. I would pull that one first and see what it looks like. check the crank at the same time. run a clean finger nail across the crank journal and feel for any small grooves that may want to snag your nail. it should be very smooth. on the rod bearings, check to see what they look like at the parting line where the rod cap meets the rod on eash side. bearings are made with more clearance at the parting line for the first 1/4" or so in order to hold a little oil there. bearings also have an overlay of softer metal, like aluminum. when the bearing runs dry of oil the overlay typically starts getting wiped off the shell and will usually start collecting in those parting line areas. this displaces oil that may have hung on to that spot and helped extend the time before failure, and also with the soft material gone the copper backing of the shell is exposed. sometimes the copper shows signs of discoloration from heat.
really, if you heard tappet noise after running with no oil pressure then it may be safe to assume that you need to take a few things apart for checking and cleaning. the rocker shaft and rockers may be starting to gall or may show new wear marks. since there is metal in the oil pan it is safe to assume that the oil pump, pick up tube and galleries will need a flush. I would remove the oil pan and rotate the engine with a bar as you look up at the piston skirts (if possible, been awhile since I had one of these apart so not sure if the skirts will show at the bottom of the stroke) and also the cam lobes and the camshaft itself in the areas near the bearings, to see if there are signs of heat. cam bearings also rely on engine oil so they could be wiped as well. if you can manage it get the whole show on video so you can look at it several times and check different things each time. after that i would start at the front of the engine and remove a rod cap, check the bearing shells, upper and lower (use some rubber hose on the studs, if it uses studs instead of bolts. this protects the crank from a rod bolt banging off the journal by accident). you will need a short length of wooden dowelling, like a broom handle, to tap the piston up a little so you can view the upper shell. removing the spark plugs prior to all this will help make rotating the engine and moving pistons etc.after the rod bearing check you can install it back again and snug up the bolts so you can check the rest. the rod and cap should be stamped with what cylinder it came from but remember to install the cap the same way it came off. the locating lugs on each shell should be located on the same side of the rod, usually.
post up some pics if you can.
sorry to hear this happened. nothing you can do to change it so keep plugging away at troubleshooting and checking. pretty soon you will have an answer on how bad it is and you can decide what to do from there.

[TX3100Guy]

Originally Posted by dsraven

oh man, you musta been sick when you realized what happened. how long do you estimate the engine ran with no oil pressure?

The engine ran for probably 15 minutes give or take a few, to say I was sick is an understatement. When I came into the house, my wife looked at my face and asked what was wrong. When I started to tell her, she replied "Oh my god, I thought someone had died"

I haven't pulled the oil filter yet since the oil pump wasn't running, I assumed that it wouldn't have had a chance catch any debris, same for the oil pickup screen. Although, after I pull the oil pan and depending on what I see, those areas will get a thorough inspection.

[dsraven]

even though the pump wasn't pumping it would be good to blow out all the oil galleries etc. better safe than sorry is how I look at it. don't want a scrap of metal going for the ride.

[TX3100Guy]

[dsraven]

Ok, great pic, but what the heck is that? Lol.

[TX3100Guy]

Originally Posted by dsraven

Ok, great pic, but what the heck is that? Lol.

Bottom of oil pan.



Seems my engine likes the weather in California better than Texas and apparently going to go on a road trip.............

[dsraven]

Oh man. Back before spring? Mag finished by then too maybe?
Sorry for your bad luck. Maybe drop an LS in there till your engine comes back. Lol.
KIDDING

[leegreen]

So something shed some metal, but the oil does not look metal flaked in the picture. Where it come from is an interesting question to try and answer.

Check the end of distributor/oil pump. I have to think they were touching so they might have clearanced each other a bit, probably even spun the pump to some extent.

Bearings are probably are not going to shed visible chunks until after they make the oil metallic.

I've seen that much metal come out of a fresh rebuild after break in oil change. heads you ignore it, tails you go back in

[TX3100Guy]

Originally Posted by leegreen

heads you ignore it, tails you go back in

I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't pursue this. If I bolt all the fenders back on and drive the truck and the engine dies prematurely or has issues with power, I will wish I had the engine looked at before buttoning everything up. There is only so far that I can drive it without a hood, grille, and fenders.

The top of the oil pump doesn't look scarred. I think the distributor shaft for the oil pump was in the shaft opening, but the shaft blade wasn't long enough to make contact with the oil pump slot.

At this point, I've admitted to being an idiot to all of you, my wife, my son, my best friend, and the engine builder. The only person who thought I was an truly an idiot was my wife, but she's thought that for nearly 40 years. Both my buddy and the engine builder confessed their past sins to me involving running engines with no oil, bad oil pumps, poorly fit distributors, etc.

I think at this point, I've decided to pull the engine, ship it back to the builder and cross my fingers and hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst.

[autowrench]

We have all made mistakes, some catastrophic! Stopping when you did saved it from much worse damage. Here's hoping it only needs bearings or less. Good luck!

[dsraven]

if it was mine I would tear it down and check everything. replace what needs replacing. better safe than sorry.
don't sweat the idiot thing, we've all been there, even if we hate admitting it.

[Rickysnickers]

Ok TXGuy, enough of bashing yourself over the head with a monkey wrench, (said with as much humor as I can). I'm sorry this happened, but you will get it fixed , and then look back and say, "Well, it was just a big bump in the road." Then, you'll be smiling driving down the road

[TX3100Guy]

I just spent the last four hours removing all the accessories, wiring, hoses, brackets, etc that I spent the last six weeks connecting to the rebuilt engine. While it is faster to take things off the engine, it isn't nearly as much fun.

I realized that I have to rip the recently installed carpet and padding to open up the transmission cover to remove the T&F shifter (top and front) from the Saginaw four speed before I can disconnect the transmission and pull the engine and bell housing. That only leaves the clutch and flywheel to be removed before I yank the engine.

[1project2many]

So 15 minutes is a bunch, but it's also not so much.

I've seen that much metal come out of a fresh rebuild after break in oil change.

This!!! Unless you have a clean room and a Nascar level machine shop, "new rebuilt" engines shed metal. You've primed the engine so there was oil on the bearings. You didn't drive the engine or load the crank so there was minimal pressure on the rods. The engine has low compression and you don't run crazy amounts of timing so there's even more chance of low damage.

If the oil pump can generate oil pressure that's a huge plus. If you primed the engine at one point and noted the oil pressure then you can make a comparison. Minimal change means minimal damage. By all means perform a visual inspection on cam and lifters, on piston skirts and cylinder walls. You may find the engine survives without replacing bunches of parts.

Stories of mistakes? Who isn't human here. First engine rebuild was a 327 and I'd spent every extra dollar I had to buy new parts and to have the crank polished and the heads done. This was a huge step for me... much more than the usual "bolt junk parts together" technique I normally followed. I'd borrowed tools to hone the cylinders myself and I prepped the block at home since I was out of dollars. I cleaned all the oil journals with gun cleaning brushes, cleaned all the tin work, and really just put a ton of effort into prep. In the process of moving the block around on the floor I cracked the pan seal retaining ridge off the rear main cap. So I grabbed a cap from another engine. A cap's a cap, right?

Well I managed to get a few weeks worth of driving before the knocking started. If I'd stopped there I could have taken the engine back apart and would have found the damaged bearing. But I assumed the noise was something else and kept going. Eventually the banging got so bad I couldn't ignore it. By then anyone I knew with engine experience had told me the noise was coming from the engine. When I disassembled the engine I had metal everywhere. The oil looked like metal flake paint. The cam was wiped, the bearings were wiped, and I was out of $$. What a learning experience.

Then there was the oil change at my first dealership job. Right before lunch the service writer asked if I'd do him a favor and do a quick oil change on a CJ7 with a smallblock swap. The engine had been purchased through the dealership and the owner wanted to make sure we serviced it. "And as soon as you're done I'll bring it up front. The customer's waiting." I was working hourly in used car reconditioning. I didn't have to hustle and I wasn't used to doing it. I drained the oil, replaced the filter, greased the chassis, and pulled the truck out. To make matters worse, I got totally distracted and forgot to shut it off! About 15 minutes later the service writer comes back in a frustrated huff to find out where the Jeep was. "OH! It's right out there! I'll bring it up front for you." I hopped in and noticed the oil pressure at zero and realized that I'd never added oil!!!! I grabbed service writer and told him what happened. He told me to add oil and check the oil pressure. "If it's 25 psi or more at idle it's fine." To my relief it had 30 psi. I don't know if they told the owner what happened, but the Jeep left under it's own power and AFAIK the engine was not replaced under warranty.

[TX3100Guy]

The engine will be pulled tomorrow. My son is off and is coming over to assist me in pulling the engine, his choice since he refers to the truck as "our truck". I've arranged to have the engine picked up on Monday by FedEx via Freightquote.com. I didn't want the engine sitting in some depot over the holiday weekend, so pickup on Monday and delviery by Friday if all works out.

[dsraven]

Any idea on the engine shop's work schedule? Back before Christmas?

[TX3100Guy]

Originally Posted by dsraven

Any idea on the engine shop's work schedule? Back before Christmas?

We talked about that. He had it for five months the first time. This time there is only one engine on a stand waiting for work effort, but family issue with someone in hospice has taken up a lot of his time. He said that he will strip it down quickly to see what will be involved so that he can order parts and/or block machining (if necessary). I'd really love to have it back before Christmas/New Year.

[TX3100Guy]

On the 261 engine, which of the two ports on the lower drivers side of the engine is oil output to a filter and which is the output from the filter back to the engine.

I'm not happy with the layout of my pipe/hose setup to a remote filter and what to change it and need to know which side of the filter in/out each how should be situated.

[dsraven]

As far as oil flow through the filer, usually if flows from outside in. Maybe check your favorite oil filter manufacturer to make sure. As far as inlet and outlet ports on the engine I'm not sure which is which. I bet your engine guy could tell you though.

[TX3100Guy]

Originally Posted by dsraven

As far as oil flow through the filer, usually if flows from outside in. Maybe check your favorite oil filter manufacturer to make sure. As far as inlet and outlet ports on the engine I'm not sure which is which. I bet your engine guy could tell you though.

The bracket for the remotely mounted filter is inscribed with “Inlet” and “Outlet” which corresponds with the oil entering the filter through the center opening and exiting via the openings around the filter perimeter. It’s that wording that made me question which port on the block is output versus input.

[dsraven]

I would say check your filter manufacturer for which way it flows and hook it up accordingly.

[leegreen]

Originally Posted by TX3100Guy

On the 261 engine, which of the two ports on the lower drivers side of the engine is oil output to a filter and which is the output from the filter back to the engine.
Attachment 2406650

I believe front is out to filter and rear is back into engine. might get messy but I'd bump starter to confirm that
The 261 are supposed to be full flow filter, not bypass filter like 235, but they are a little harder to find information on.

[dsraven]

https://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/s...hp?tid/332476/

foind this. dunno if it is relevant to your engine since there are differences throughout the years. maybe relevant to someone lurking guess