46 pickemup in NJ "the Rebuild"

[paintman]

[QUOTE=dillonv2008;8172896]what thickness did you use for your plate on floorpan where column and brake pedal are at. and also for your brake assemebly that you mounted to the frame what thickness did you use. it almost looks like 3/16 for frame and 1/8 for floor pan??[/QUOTE

I had originally bought one of those pre made floor pans for a 46 from sheet metal direct, (i think) but it was a piece of $%&t just like all repo parts. So if I remember correctly I used 1/8th for the top of the floor pan. 1/16th felt way to flimsy. But it would have work well with beads rolled into it. But all I had was caveman tools, so 1/8" is was. Can't really remember because that was almost 6 years ago.

[dillonv2008]

[quote=paintman;8173252]

Originally Posted by dillonv2008

what thickness did you use for your plate on floorpan where column and brake pedal are at. and also for your brake assemebly that you mounted to the frame what thickness did you use. it almost looks like 3/16 for frame and 1/8 for floor pan??[/QUOTE

I had originally bought one of those pre made floor pans for a 46 from sheet metal direct, (i think) but it was a piece of $%&t just like all repo parts. So if I remember correctly I used 1/8th for the top of the floor pan. 1/16th felt way to flimsy. But it would have work well with beads rolled into it. But all I had was caveman tools, so 1/8" is was. Can't really remember because that was almost 6 years ago.

gotcha gotcha looks awesome been studying the floor and seat and brake to make my own haha

[LT7A]

Nice work Paintman! I like how as time went on you spoke less about your perceived limitations and were more matter of fact about what needed to be done and just did it! You can approach this next one with the confidence of experience now. The truck is beautiful. Did you decide about wheels and tires? Could just paint the ones you have to match each other and call it good for the time being. I think it'd be great if you just continued on in this same thread with the work you're going to do on that Dodge. If not, put it in alternate tinkerings and let us know the link. Since you're going to leave the patina on that one, do you think you might do more of a refurbishment than a full-on custom this next time? Thanks for sharing.

[paintman]

Originally Posted by LT7A

Did you decide about wheels and tires? Could just paint the ones you have to match each other and call it good for the time being. I think it'd be great if you just continued on in this same thread with the work you're going to do on that Dodge. If not, put it in alternate tinkerings and let us know the link. Since you're going to leave the patina on that one, do you think you might do more of a refurbishment than a full-on custom this next time? Thanks for sharing.

Funny you should ask! First Wheel Vintiques jerked me around for about 6 weeks. Then I finally got my wheels back from powder coat. Fronts are 15x6 Rears are 15x7. Going to go with wide whites when i finally get off my ass and feel like handing over $1,000!
Just your standard smoothies painted satin black


As far as the Dodge since I couldn't find a decent Mopar forum, I decided to put the build on this forum Alternate Tinkerings until further notice.
Follow the bouncing ball and enjoy.............................
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...50#post8275250

[joedoh]

I know this doesnt help now, but jegs stocks the smoothies and ships the same day. did you order a special offset?

[paintman]

Originally Posted by joedoh

I know this doesnt help now, but jegs stocks the smoothies and ships the same day. did you order a special offset?

Hey Joe! Yes the rears I had custom made with a 4 3/4 offset to tuck the wheels in a little further. That was the easy part. When I went and ordered the fronts (standard size), via their website it took 4 weeks before someone called and confirmed the order. Then, he never forwarded the order to the next in command so apparently my order just sat on his desk. So after a phone call, and a dose of the Paintman's attidude, I had them in 3 days. I knew I could have called Jegs but I figured they would just call Vintiques and have them sent.

[docrock]

I did the same thing. But, I was at Goodguys and performance was having a sale on US Wheels Smoothies. 50 each. I got 15x6 and 15x7 painted them. Got a guy to mount my L78-15 for 40 out the door. Granted they are 30 year old tires but they hold air and for now they are great for cruising. I did bite the bullet and get the trim rings and caps. Those are not cheap

[paintman]

Finally got off my ass and got my tires and caps. I think we will call it finished for now. Over the winter I might put the regular MII spindles back on to see how it sits. Right now it's on 2" dropped.

Rears 235/70 R15 on 7" rims
Fronts 215/70 R15 on 6" rims

[joedoh]

lower the back 2"! the front looks amazing

[paintman]

Well I'm back with a ****ty update. I have had to take the truck off the road to try and resolve my brake issues. Drove the ole girl around for part of the summer but the pedal is just not comfortable. If you remember I never got a good pedal after bleeding, and it got worse after starting the engine. I just can't drive it this way. I actually bought a whole new booster and MC thinking that was my problem but..........NOPE!

I have literally pumped 3 gallons of brake fluid through the system and just can't get a firm pedal. I have taken care of a few minor leaks but that did not seem to help. Yesterday I spent another 2 hours bleeding each wheel but still no pedal. I even went through the trouble of removing the MC and bench bled it another time. Of course there was no air present in the MC

So I am thinking the actual plumbing may be the culprit.......

Is it ok to mount the prop valve in this position? Or is it possible I have air trapped up at the top by the pressure switch for the brakes?


Next I am thinking perhaps I should have run my rear brake lines the traditional way with one line running across the rear. Instead I have them split with one line running to each drum through a thru frame fitting. Is it perhaps I am trying to move to much fluid through these lines?

And a second question........If this plumbingis in fact ok do I need to run a rear residual valve since my lines come thru the frame above the wheel cylinders? I wouldn't think the fluid would be able to run up hill.

[CURSED GEARS]

I not a mechanic, but when I was researching my brake system I believe I read that you needed a residual valve if your lines and plumbing was above your master cylinder.
I had the same problems with my brakes for some time when I built my truck. I bled mine countless times and eventually got it where it would stop. I still think it could be better, but not sure how to improve it. I got drums on all four wheels with a firewall mounted MC. Good luck and lets us know how you resolve it.

[CURSED GEARS]

One other thing, With your rear lines running up hill, It would seem like the fluid would drain back towards your master cylinder causing you to possibly have to refill the lines each time you pump your brakes. Again, I'm not a mechanic, just a hobbyist like you. I could be full of it.

[1project2many]

I'm here because you asked for folks in the 47-59 forum to look at pictures of brake lines.


Looks like a nice build but yikes! 19 pages to hunt through? Can ya shortcut the search and link to the pictures?

Edit... Nevermind. Looks like filters on the work PC were blocking the photos. I figured out a solution.

Also, is there a single post that lays out what hardware you're running?

It sounds like you're fighting two problems. One is that the pedal doesn't feel right, the other is that the truck doesn't stop fast enough. Is that right?

I think I saw a post that said you'd driven the truck with the vacuum line disconnected. I realize that you need legs like piledrivers to stop when the vacuum is unhooked, but is the pedal nice and high when you do this? That can be a big clue about whether or not you have a problem in the hydraulic system or a problem with the booster. Also, simple question, have you ever tried to see if all four tires stop when the brakes applied? Jack up the wheels, wedge a stick between brake pedal and seat, then try to spin the tires. Or just lock 'em up on a dirt road and look for skidmarks.

Another easy test is to plug the front brakes off at the master and see how the pedal feel changes, then switch out your plug so the rear brakes are disconnected. Since it takes pressure in both front and rear chambers of the master before you feel pressure at the pedal, this helps tell you which half of the truck is acting up. I've even plugged both ports to confirm the booster was junk (you should feel a good pedal almost instantly with both ports plugged). Easy to make a temporary plug, just take a short piece of flared tubing with a nut and fold the end opposite the flare two or three times then squeeze it in a vise or hammer it flat.

[CSHADES]

The set up you have is going to need some residual valves, 10 lbs rear and 2 lbs for the front. They should be mounted as close to the mc as possible. I have run into this bleeding problem before, I have friend with a 35 ford coupe that we needed to bleed the brakes after some work was done. We pumped about 3 gallons through and the pedal still was really low, I ended up using a pressure power bleeder to push all the air out of the system. That was no easy task because we had to pull the front seat and carpet out to access the top of the master with the bleeder top.

[paintman]

Ok just so were all clear as to what is going on, a little review. When I first got the brakes bled, I would say I had about an 85% good pedal with the engine off. I had a good 85% pedal from the top all the way to the bottom (full travel of pedal).

As soon as I turned the engine on, I lost ALL pedal for the first 3" of travel, and then got a good 85% pedal. I was able to drive the truck and it stopped good. It was just not comfortable not having that first 3" of feeling in the pedal. Obviously something was wrong.

It is my understanding that with a power booster as with all my other daily drivers, you should have a rock solid pedal when engine is off and you should barely be able to move it.

I tried disconnecting the booster and driving the truck, but the truck would not stop at all even though I had that 85% pedal. So for the time being I ruled out the booster as being the problem,

Now that I have pulled the truck off the road, I have found a couple leaks at the banjo fittings (worse design in the history of automotive engineering), and fixed them. I am just re-thinking my entire plumbing design and figured since the truck is up off the floor I would re-do some things.

First off I have purchased a complete new booster/MC disc/drum with a 1" bore. But now I am thinking that perhaps the running of 2 seperate lines to the drums could be my problem.

Also I have been reading that alot of people have trouble bleeding brakes with the thru frame fittings. It seems plausible to me. If you look at a thru frame fitting they basicall go from a 3/16 hole on one side to a nearly 1/2" hole all the way to the other side, and then back down to 3/16. I'm no fluid dynamics or hydraulic specialist but it seems to me it would be very hard for the MC to push the fluid in that area. I have found that Art Morrison makes a different style thru frame fitting that supposedly eliminates bleeding problems. Hmmmmm?

Also just to be clear, and as the photos clearly show, I do have residual valves in both the front and rear circuits. And yes I do have the right PSI and they are pointed in the proper direction. And, for now, I have them both mounted within 2" of the MC. I have however been reading that some guys run the rear residual valve after the proportioning valve. What difference this would make, I have know idea.

AND YES I HAVE BENCH BLED THE MC, SO MUCH SO THAT MY ARMS HURT!!!!!

AND YES I DID CHECK THE BOOSTER PIN TO MC BORE CLEARANCE. HELL I EVEN SPENT THE $35 AND BOUGHT THE TRICK LITTLE TOOL.

So thats where I am at. I'm not sure if I should try different thru frame fittings or just bite the bullet and run my rear lines the traditional way with one line feeding a "T" mounted on the rear running to both wheel cylinders.

[CSHADES]

I see the valves now, You are good there. I still suggest you find a pressure power bleeder, the car I talked about before really was kicking my butt until I put the pressure bleeder on it and pushed all of the air out. The 2 lines to the rear should make no difference in pedal feel if you have enough volume of fluid which I think you do. I have had some issues with the adjustable prop valves but that was more of a balance problem than a pedal movement.

[solidaxel]

I am convinced that 46 Chevy brakes are "possed"

I had the most trouble with the one I built
Three M/C later and two boosters later it now feels like it will slide the tires and I can feel the power master.
I am almost sure the fix was a 15/16" master #3
I did change the Welwood pads to a much softer compound, and they are very "dirty"
I did read somewhere where the larger thru the frame fittings were a problem and as I remember I think the fix was to place a "filler wire" in the cavity of the frame part of the fitting to reduce the volume..............old age has set in!
Your idea sounds like it should work.
Have you tried to isolate the front from the rear
Get 1/2 working at a time?

[paintman]

So not much of an update on my brake issues, rather a question. I have found a few threads on the HAMB that alks about GM metric calipers 1977 and up being low drag. Meaning that certain year calipers (77 and up) were designed to have the pistons return farther back thus pulling the pads farther away from the calipers in an attempt to reduce drag on the rotors.
Apparently this was to save on fuel mileage during the 70's gas crisis. From what I have gathered a regular corvette MC will not work with these calipers as they do not push enough fluid, fast enough back to the piston to get the pads up against the rotor, thus causing a soft pedal. Can anbody verify this. I am using what I assume are low drag GM metric calipers that came with my Scott's front end.
If this in fact my problem can someone point me in the direction of a "stepped" MC that will work with these calipers? Or perhaps maybe I can find a set of high drag pre 77 metric calipers?

I have done some re-routing of my brake lines and residual valves. But then life got in the way, mainly blowing leaves, and being down for the count with the flu and some pretty bad back problems. But all that seems to be behind me now so I would like to get my truck back on the road.

[solidaxel]

It seems to me that part of the reason for a RPValve is to hold 2 or 10# of pressure on the line as a check valve which in turn would stop the piston from returning/moving away from the caliper, causing a drag...........and bad fuel mileage!
The Corvette MC for disc brakes will not have RPValves,... you said you added them right?

[paintman]

yes I do have the check valves installed. It is my understanding that even with the check valves installed, the newer GM metric calipers still pull back a little farther from the caliper. From what I have read the high drag calipers only pull back 5 thousdanths and the low drag pull back nearly 20 thousandths. Doesn't sound like alot but when you add in all the slop in the pedal and linkages.......... Solid, what calipers came with your Scott's kit?

[solidaxel]

We upgraded to Wellwood, but changed to three different pads until we could get them to stop.
The softest pads took some time to bed in..... and two boosters and three M/C later
it finally feels like it has brakes!

[paintman]

Originally Posted by solidaxel

We upgraded to Wellwood, but changed to three different pads until we could get them to stop.
The softest pads took some time to bed in..... and two boosters and three M/C later
it finally feels like it has brakes!

Solid, What Willwood calipers did you upgrade to? Are they just the GM metric version from Wilwood? Did you have to get new brackets from Justin? Reason I ask is because I had a hell of a time getting the banjo fittings to seal on the ones I have. I was thinking about getting a different set of calipers that had AN connections, but I think that would mean all new brackets for mounting. I don't think Wilwood makes a GM metric version with AN fittings.

[solidaxel]

Here is what I located
I think you will need different brackets
Still looking for the front spindles!

[solidaxel]

I am still looking for the front brake pics

[paintman]

I like those calipers because they use AN fittings! I just don't want to get involved with sourcing out brackets and dealing with Justin. LOL! I found these calipers, suposedly they are GM Metric, but high drag where the piston doesn't pull back as much.
https://www.southwestspeed.com/?sec=...ied%20Calipers