Interest for High rise(pre-runner style?) Fenders Fiberglass

[sandking]

They are mounted with dzues fasteners. They have a welded on backing plate to a tube structure. I agree about the fine details, but for something that is probably going to get messed up, I would be ok with it. I do like your idea of detail, but unless the truck is a street/trailer queen, you might be spending more time then its worth to fine tune these. I know you said you do this for a living, but time cost money. I am just speculating here, no harm intended. I say go for it!!

[Mordachai]

ah, dzus fasteners are great! I don't know why I didn't think of it when I saw that, as it's a pretty standard way to mount GRP panels.

If I'm going to take the time and effort to make a mold, I feel it's worth it getting the model/plug as well done as possible. if I half ass the model, the molds will reflect that, and every part from the molds will too. And it's not that much work to retain the curve on top of the lip and the beauty line on the lower part of the lip.

This weekend I'm just pulling my fenders out of the barn, and finish up re-organizing my garage so I have some nice space to work on these fenders.

When I start cutting and welding I'll be posting pics.

I've been experimenting with reinforcing the fender front to back, as the fender holds up the Rad support. On my tilt front, I fabbed some bars to hold the rad. support, but I'd like to make these fenders include something so additional supports aren't necessary

[jaros44sr]

Originally Posted by Mordachai

ah, dzus fasteners are great! I don't know why I didn't think of it when I saw that, as it's a pretty standard way to mount GRP panels.

If I'm going to take the time and effort to make a mold, I feel it's worth it getting the model/plug as well done as possible. if I half ass the model, the molds will reflect that, and every part from the molds will too. And it's not that much work to retain the curve on top of the lip and the beauty line on the lower part of the lip.

This weekend I'm just pulling my fenders out of the barn, and finish up re-organizing my garage so I have some nice space to work on these fenders.

When I start cutting and welding I'll be posting pics.

I've been experimenting with reinforcing the fender front to back, as the fender holds up the Rad support. On my tilt front, I fabbed some bars to hold the rad. support, but I'd like to make these fenders include something so additional supports aren't necessary

Is it possible to make just the fender skin, I could attach it to my exsisting fender framework. I could flange the fender the thickness of your fiberglas all the way around

[Mordachai]

Originally Posted by jaros44sr

Is it possible to make just the fender skin, I could attach it to my exsisting fender framework. I could flange the fender the thickness of your fiberglas all the way around

do you mean that you would cut off the fender skin, leaving an inch or two around the perimeter to mount the new skin to?
That's def possible, but it's hard to get a good true bond with metal and fiberglass. You would pretty much have to rivet or thread set it to the metal frame, and then go over the seam with some fiberglass or similar material.
And it will crack as it flexes. Metal and Fiberglass have different expansion rates in different temps, and they flex differently.
It can def be done, prolly a little cheaper than a fully molded fender with all the mounting points.

I'll send you some pics to clarify that we're talking about the same thing.

[sandking]

Originally Posted by Mordachai

do you mean that you would cut off the fender skin, leaving an inch or two around the perimeter to mount the new skin to?
That's def possible, but it's hard to get a good true bond with metal and fiberglass. You would pretty much have to rivet or thread set it to the metal frame, and then go over the seam with some fiberglass or similar material.
And it will crack as it flexes. Metal and Fiberglass have different expansion rates in different temps, and they flex differently.
It can def be done, prolly a little cheaper than a fully molded fender with all the mounting points.

I'll send you some pics to clarify that we're talking about the same thing.

I would be interested in this also. Any thought on bedsides? The skin would be ideal here.

[Mordachai]

A fender skin might a good compromise, only thing if you want it to look pretty painted up and all, it will flex and bend, and eventually crack the paint.
Some people might not care, some would.
I could do the fender skin thing for anyone who's interested. It would come off the same mold as the full fender, just not fully cast around the mounting points etc.


As for bedsides, I am planning on making molds of my fleetside bedsides. Actually I'm going to make a full glass bed, it's straight and in really good shape, but I'm going to do the front fenders first. Once there is some good feedback and hopefully some satisfied customers, I'll work on the bed.

To give a quick idea, It'll prolly cost me around 400-600 in materials alone for each front fender mold. That does not include my time to make the plug, or my time to make and clean and polish the mold. Molds are expensive as all hell, but worth it if making a decent number of parts.

But eventually(hopefully sooner than later) I will wet sand and smooth my bedsides and make molds of them. Heck maybe someone will help me with my mold costs in return for the first set of bedsides, as bedside molds are gonna be costly!

[dammitmitchell]

<couldnt you cut or match the fender mounting holes with like a metla inlay or say i dunno how to describe it, but like a metal "rib" for the bolt on and mounting areas?
and issue ive had with alot of the newer cars and definatley with the newer body kit rage is that when you install them everything sags or the holes for mounting are just weak and unsupported, if there was a "rib" or a inlaid piece of metal to bolt through for added support said fenders would last much longer wouldnt they? or at least be more rigid at the mounting so they dont "tear off" under normal flex or maby mud weight?
does that make sense?
I think an internal reinforcement would be much sturdier then "modling" a big fiberglass mold to a cut steel fender, and BTW some of us here cant fiberglass.... so how would we make it look descent?

[Mordachai]

Originally Posted by jaros44sr

If you can make the fenderskins in white gelcoat, I won't have to paint them. I was thinking of bonding them to the fender skeletin, once I cut the fender away. How thick would the fibreglas be?

Hey that's great coincidence, as I generally use black(sometimes orange) tooling gelcoat for the mold and white gelcoat for the parts. The white over black helps to give a visual to when I've got the gelcoat thick enough. I do use a wet film gauge too, but the color is a great starting point.

How were you thinking of bonding them? An adhesive bond alone is probably not enough to really make it strong. I'd suggest a good adhesive and Rivets or threaded inserts or something like that. I'd like to know what you have in mind.

Originally Posted by dammitmitchell

<couldnt you cut or match the fender mounting holes with like a metla inlay or say i dunno how to describe it, but like a metal "rib" for the bolt on and mounting areas?
and issue ive had with alot of the newer cars and definatley with the newer body kit rage is that when you install them everything sags or the holes for mounting are just weak and unsupported, if there was a "rib" or a inlaid piece of metal to bolt through for added support said fenders would last much longer wouldnt they? or at least be more rigid at the mounting so they dont "tear off" under normal flex or maby mud weight?
does that make sense?
I think an internal reinforcement would be much sturdier then "modling" a big fiberglass mold to a cut steel fender, and BTW some of us here cant fiberglass.... so how would we make it look descent?

I can add any kind of reinforcement to the fender you'd like, but it's probably not necessary. I will place large fender washers in the mounting areas to help spread the force of the bolts.As for internal ribs to make it stronger, if the part is laminated correctly, there is no need for any other support. The only way I can see it tearing off is in an accident. There's little to no chance it will break under normal flex, or even if covered with 50# of mud.

For instance, I can sit on the tilt forward front end I made, it's def strong enough. It weighs roughly 150#, and that's with the 20# hinge I made out of angle iron grafted to it. As long as the parts are made well, there should be no problem, as pound for pound, composites are much much stronger than steel! I can't wait to have some finished parts to show the quality that I am aiming for.

I agree with you, it will be difficult at best to graft a fender skin to a cut steel fender. And over time, the seam will crack just the nature of two different materials. That's why I'm curious to know what jaros44sr has in mind.

I agree with the whole thing with the body kits you are talking about, but it's the brand of kit that the problems arise. A good well made kit will run anywhere from 10 grand and up, and there's only a few companies that make them, and they don't produce them in high numbers. That's for the real deal kit from the people who originally designed it. Those parts are very high quality and don't sag at all, and line up perfectly.
What happens is some rip-off company buys one kit, and makes cheap molds off the parts without them mounted on a car. Since they are molded off the car, their molds are twisted, wavy and generally lousy.
Then the parts that they pull off are even worse, and very thin and fragile.
Unfortunately that gives all body kits a bad rep, as 90% or more of them are the cheap ones, not the well made kits by well known companies. Unfortunately, the rip off companies market their junk as the real deal, and that causes big problems throughout the industry.

An example: I still have a pair of fenders I got for my Rx-7, that I just couldn't bring myself to bolt on because of shoddy workmanship. A friend bought them and sold his Rex before he put them on, so I got them. These are fenders that sell for $350 or so, but should sell for 100 if that. There's maybe $40 of materials in them, they are so thin it's not even right, that what is supposed to be used as a core material is soaked in resin and slapped on the back to give it some form of strength, with no glass sealing up the 'core'. Basically, the tupperware in your kitchen is probably stronger than those fenders!

So anyways, fiberglass parts have gotten a bad name because of all the rip off companies out there, but composites(fiberglass, Carbon fiber, Kevlar glass etc) if done properly are super strong.

Just for kicks, here's a pic of me sitting on my front end. I know if I can make that front end strong enough to support me, ans weigh in around 150#, that I can surely make a fender as strong(probably stronger) than it's steel counterpart.

[jaros44sr]

Alot of the new panels are just bonded(BMW), but I was planning on using countersunk rivets to hold the two pcs. together...How thick is the fibreglas, I have to make a crimping tool that thickness?

[Mordachai]

Originally Posted by jaros44sr

Alot of the new panels are just bonded(BMW), but I was planning on using countersunk rivets to hold the two pcs. together...How thick is the fibreglas, I have to make a crimping tool that thickness?

I'm pretty sure the panels you are talking about are all ABS, PU, or HDPE plastics.
They are usually thermoset(melted) through holes in the metal frame.
BMW, Mercedes, of course Saturn all have some plastic body panels.
Bodymen have a special tool that melts the plastic stub into a liquid rivet on the backside of the mounting areas. It's pretty cool.

As for placing them in your fender, find some one that has a jenny or swage roller. It'll make the l shaped flange for you. You could also use a bead roller and then flatten the inside half of the bead.

I used to be able to get a line of specialty hot glues that bonded or temp bonded different or similar materials together depending on application.
I'll see if I can get something for steel to fiberglass. If so, I could supply a few sticks with every skin.

For the thickness around 1/4", but depends on the resin. PE or VE resin would be more like 5/16", and epoxy would be closer to 3/16".

[jaros44sr]

Originally Posted by Mordachai

I'm pretty sure the panels you are talking about are all ABS, PU, or HDPE plastics.
They are usually thermoset(melted) through holes in the metal frame.
BMW, Mercedes, of course Saturn all have some plastic body panels.
Bodymen have a special tool that melts the plastic stub into a liquid rivet on the backside of the mounting areas. It's pretty cool.

As for placing them in your fender, find some one that has a jenny or swage roller. It'll make the l shaped flange for you. You could also use a bead roller and then flatten the inside half of the bead.

I used to be able to get a line of specialty hot glues that bonded or temp bonded different or similar materials together depending on application.
I'll see if I can get something for steel to fiberglass. If so, I could supply a few sticks with every skin.

For the thickness around 1/4", but depends on the resin. PE or VE resin would be more like 5/16", and epoxy would be closer to 3/16".

Sounds like you have way more knowledge than I do on the subject, but at least you understand what I want to do. With the metal frame of the fender, I would have support on three sides, top, front, and back. I plan on at least 1" flange all the way around

This body shop up in NJ was putting a Japanese pickup bed together, metal skin to metal inner bedside, and showed me the bonding process. He said no welds just the glue

I have pneumatic flanging tool, I was just going to machine the jaws to the proper thickness, if they are hardened, I'll use a surface grinder

The rivets would be used for more of alignmnet, I don't think they would have much holding power, the glue would do that, maybe it was Ferrari that was using a glue that bonded fibreglas to metal, heard it somewhere. Would you have a scrap pc. of fibreglas down there, 6"x6", that I could start experimenting with? Wait, maybe it was Corvette, with their Alum. frame (Z06)...Thanks

[dammitmitchell]

oh well hell.. u know alot more then i do, i recently installed a stalker II body kit on a 01 mustang, looks great till you hit 100, had to go through and "reinforce" with angles sheetmetal to keep the body sucked up, it had the holes and the pictures in the instructions just non of the hardware .. and this is directly from the guys who made it ugggghhh..
ok well we also had baja fenders on a prerunner style ranger a while back and after a few good whacks in muddign trails the fenders were splitting up like old currogated (sp?) fiberglass panels (like a crappy greenhouse)
so... im sorry im bitter..
but your stuff looks alot better

[sandking]

Just for a little more info on the "skin", here is a picture of my last truck I had. It was a full fiberglass body made by a place called Trailer Products. It was full tube chassis, it had tubes with tabs and the glass was thru-bolted and all bolted together. The thickness was no more then 3/16". The truck has seen the worse of the worse and at 100+ mph, and not one crack. I had since painted the whole thing black, and still no stress cracks. I am just saying, those of you that think you need to beef up the glass, you would be suprised how strong it really is if you have it mounted in a decent application.
Mordachai, if you make the front and rear skins, I would be interested, as my Blazer will see the same terrain that my old truck did. Weight is also a concern for me. Thanks.

[vtblazer]

Originally Posted by sandking

Just for a little more info on the "skin", here is a picture of my last truck I had. It was a full fiberglass body made by a place called Trailer Products. It was full tube chassis, it had tubes with tabs and the glass was thru-bolted and all bolted together. The thickness was no more then 3/16". The truck has seen the worse of the worse and at 100+ mph, and not one crack. I had since painted the whole thing black, and still no stress cracks. I am just saying, those of you that think you need to beef up the glass, you would be suprised how strong it really is if you have it mounted in a decent application.
Mordachai, if you make the front and rear skins, I would be interested, as my Blazer will see the same terrain that my old truck did. Weight is also a concern for me. Thanks.

I would soooo love to do that some day!

No intent to hi-jack but how's your build coming along?

[sandking]

Originally Posted by vtblazer

I would soooo love to do that some day!

No intent to hi-jack but how's your build coming along?

Sssslllloooowwww. I got stuck on the front axle. I will update my build thread soon.

[skchevota]

I would love a set , then i could ditch the body lift!!!!

[Senator350]

voted for 4" width, 2" height, 1.5" flare.

and i'm in the market for a pair of fenders inside a month.

sell me some. PLEASE! i'm very eager to gain some clearance for 39"s.

i'm glad you seem to have noticed that those of us who actually have modified our fenders have nipped the front bottoms off, somewhat in line with the grill surround line. this is a pretty important point (no pun intended), even with the 4" overall width expansion of the arch. i hope your final design for the fenders incorporates at least a little nip of the front bottom.

eagerly awaiting your progress, as i NEEED a front that's wider to match i full width dually rear when i'm running street wheels, but still be functional when i swap on my H1's with their 7" backspacing for a romp through the woods.

cheers!

[sandking]

Are you going to be able to make just the outer "skins" as previously mentioned?

[Mordachai]

Yes, I can make just the skins for anyone interested.
I can make the skin as big or small as you want. I can make it the full size of the fender or just a few inches past the wheel well.

[Senator350]

Progress?

[sandking]

Would you be able to move the opening forward a few inches while maintaining the same size opening?

[Mordachai]

Originally Posted by sandking

Would you be able to move the opening forward a few inches while maintaining the same size opening?

The location of the opening would be up to you when you graft it together.
You'll have at least 6" forward to back adjustment with the skin, depending on where you cut your stock fender. If needed I can make either front or back even longer, but prolly wouldn't need to.

I'm guessing you'd like it to be a few inches father forward?

[sandking]

This is all I have on it.....

http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/sho...t=belden+chevy

[sandking]

Yeah, my front axle is forward 2-3". It would be nice to have the tires "Centered" in the opening. If you have adjustment already, it should be good. Thanks.

Oh yeah, post some pics

[Mordachai]

yeah, there's adjustment in where you cut and graft the new opening onto the old fender.
Since yours is forward, I can make the back skin of the fender go all the way to the factory location. That will give you enough fiberglass and metal to overlap at the rear seam.
I'm still looking into different panel bonding adhesives.
I've heard both Duramix and the 3M 2 part adhesives are good.
3M just bought duramix and renamed all of them.
The hot glue sticks I was talking about require an industrial glue gun that heats up to around 350 degree. Most 'high temp' craft glue guns, get to 180 or 250, not enough to melt the stuff. And Apparently to bond an ABC or HDPE panel like on some of the new cars, you are supposed to bomb the plastic panel with a heat gun before applying the adhesive for a better bond.
I think the duramix type adhesives will be more than needed.
Next week or two I'm going to get a few types of duramix and do my own tests. I don't know if many people will do the skin thing, but I'd like to know the best way to attach them.

Not much in the way of pics for right now, I'm waiting to get some metal arches and cups, then I can start on the fender.
Next few days I should have molds for that inner support though, and I'll put up pics