Camaro subframe ?'s

[crazy longhorn]

Originally Posted by outlawc

Just got off the phone with my friend. I knew he has raced his trucks in the past and figured he may have weighed them at one time. He said the last truck he raced was camaro subframed, 383 stroker, camaro rearend, weighed on DOT scales was 3612. Stock camaro is 3660. So by removing the heavier truck frame section and istalling a lighter camaro subframe the C10 swb fleet with camaro subframe is actually 48 pounds lighter than what the suspension is rated for. Maybe that is the reason this setup handles and corners better.

Heck my old longhorn tips the scales @ 4040, & its got 1 freakin monster of a frame under it + the extra lenght! It dont take too much imagination to see a shortbed pickup in the mid 3's on weight . I would still like to see the pics on that camaro clip L

[outlawc]

Alittle more info. The truck I mentioned above was all steel, with wood bed and had air. I talked to him again and he said always use the Z/28 subrame,not the standard camaro, the springs and sway bar are different. Also for big block applications use a big block Trans Am (6.6 litre) subframe instead of the Z/28.

I asked what the drop was from stock and it ends up around a 7-7 1/2 inch drop while still maintaining stock Camaro geometry and spring rates. No drop spindles or springs. For even better handling add urethane bushings and the T/A big block sway bar for a small block application.

It has been brought up about brakes here. My friends answer was this, the trucks have a slightly larger brake system than the the Camaro, but not for the purpose of controlling an unloaded trucks weight. The manufacturer puts larger brakes on a truck due their intended purpose, hauling loads and pulling trailers and not for the reasons stated previously. But you can still upgrade to larger rotors and calipers on a camaro conversion for about the same as a stock disc brake upgrade kit for the truck.

This whole conversion averages around $500.00 whick includes rebuilding the suspension and brake system. Compare that to the cost of a stock rebuild, disc brake conversion kit, drop kit, power steering kit, etc, and there is a noticable difference not to mention after all this your truck still handles like a truck. I will definately be going this route, as to me the advantages and cost outweigh the stock route. The install is alot simpler than I had thought also.

Crazy longhorn I didnt make it today but I will try to get over to his shop tomorrow and get some pics.

[CochinoFilipino]

Add some Globalwest Upper Control Arms and probably get even better handling.

You are going to takes Pics and share with us? Can't wait.

[outlawc]

I am sure they will make even more of a difference. I will take pics of the process. I am surprised that there arent more people that have done this.

[crazy longhorn]

BTT...... L

[PBFAB.COM]

Originally Posted by outlawc

I am surprised that there arent more people that have done this.

I'm not... it's alot of work!

[outlawc]

All that wild stuff you do and a camaro subframe is a lot of work, come on now . For you that should be like picking your nose, quick and easy . You do some awesome work. The camaro subframe you did is clean. Since you have done them what is your take on the comments on weight, handling and brake size when installed on a truck.

[ZOOMY]

Are there any books out there on "how to" sub frame swaps ?..........Thanks...........Zoomy

[PBFAB.COM]

Originally Posted by outlawc

All that wild stuff you do and a camaro subframe is a lot of work, come on now . For you that should be like picking your nose, quick and easy . You do some awesome work. The camaro subframe you did is clean. Since you have done them what is your take on the comments on weight, handling and brake size when installed on a truck.

Personally I am not the biggest fan of the camaro subframe. They may be a suspension upgrade in terms of performance (especially on a truck), but still leave a lot to be desired.
I think it was you that mentioned the Guldstrand Mod (changing the location of the upper control arm mounts to achieve a more desireable camber curve) in the suspension forum... this modification will greatly improve the performance aspect of a camaro's suspension geometry.
It really is alot of work to do a clean installation... your friend said "2 hours" that seems pretty optimistic!
You have to make all your measurements, check them again and again, remove the front-end, motor/trans, remove the stock suspension, cut the frame off (this is where your measuring twice pays off), intsall the clip, box it all in, re-hang all the front sheet metal and core support... mock it up and fabricate a new core support mount and bumper brackets (or graft in the front half of the original frame). Then re-run all the brake lines, might have to mod or move the trans crossmember, install the drivetrain, have your driveshaft lengthened or shortened, spend at least a couple hundred bucks for steering linkage, might have to buy new power steering lines, exhaust and headers... and there will be a hundred other little things that will nickle and dime you to death.
True, most of it is labor... TIME. If you got the time to spend and don't mind the challenge, or the fact that you're cutting the front half of your frame off, it may be justified as an option for suspension "upgrade". If you don't have the time and are paying somebody else to do the work, $75-$100 an hour adds up in a hurry. I don't install camaro subframes for customers, because the investment isn't justified... I did one.
In regards to the weight question, I believe the difference is negligable. The braking components on the camaro will be sufficient to stop your truck during normal daily driving duties... not towing or hauling heavy loads. If one doesn't think the braking power is sufficient... upgrade the brakes, and spend another $1500!!!

[bretcopsey]

Here's a link to another member's 59 project. I don't know how that frame will compare to yours, but at least it's a start. I'm in the middle of a clip swap too on my 51. My original frame rails are more norrow then the 59 shown here, so I couldn't just lay the truck frame onto the Camaro frame.

It requires a lot of measuring as mentioned before. You need to set the Camaro clip and truck to ride height. I set the clip by running 5/8" allthread rods with washers and nuts in place of the shocks. Then make sure you set the axle centerline and get it square. Brace it, cut, fit weld. There is obviously more to it, and it is not for the faint of heart. If you want to jump into it and are feeling hesitant why not get your friend to help out?



http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=213148

[CochinoFilipino]

Originally Posted by porterbuilt

Personally I am not the biggest fan of the camaro subframe. They may be a suspension upgrade in terms of performance (especially on a truck), but still leave a lot to be desired.
I think it was you that mentioned the Guldstrand Mod (changing the location of the upper control arm mounts to achieve a more desireable camber curve) in the suspension forum... this modification will greatly improve the performance aspect of a camaro's suspension geometry.

I'm not too familiar with camaros though I did have a 71 years ago and read that the 2nd gen suspension was far better than the first. But is the Gulstrand mod done on 2nd gen camaros too? Just want to make sure we are all on the same page as far as what suspension is being discussed here.

[PBFAB.COM]

Originally Posted by CochinoFilipino

I'm not too familiar with camaros though I did have a 71 years ago and read that the 2nd gen suspension was far better than the first. But is the Gulstrand mod done on 2nd gen camaros too? Just want to make sure we are all on the same page as far as what suspension is being discussed here.

CochinoFilipino is right on. Guldstrand Mod is done on the First Gen camaro subframes (67-69). If I would've read the entire post I would have realized we were talking about a 2nd gen. stub!
The 2nd gen. has a better suspension design.

[outlawc]

I am not familiar with the Guldstrand Mod, but I will be using a 1979 Z/28 subframe. When I said my friend said a couple of hours that was to cut the truck frame, cut the subframe to slide into the trucks framerails and weld it up, with me and two other people. He has done this so many times he has built a jig that bolts to the truck frame, all the templates for the general cuts are premade along with templates for the boxing plates and core support mounting. He told me he gets them almost dead on just using his setup and the installation requires only minor adjustments. I wasnt talking about motor out, subframe, finish welding, motor in etc, just in a sitting on wheels, thats all. I will have to do motor trans and everthing either way, subframe or the 73-87 upgrade. All this wont cost me a dime, I have a car he wants so its a swap deal.

My main reasons for doing this as stated before was to improve handling and cornering and get it lower without having to buy all the suspension, brake and lowering kits. I priced out everything between the two and the camaro subframe,for what I want, comes out ahead in cost and performance. I wont ever be towing anything and the most it will ever haul will be paint and supplies, and an occasional ice chest.

Thanks so much for your expert opinions porterbuilt. I knew the weight difference is almost non existant and the braking wouldnt be a problem, since its working days are over. Thanks again for clarifying that is definately a upgrade in performane over the truck suspension. The ones I have driven handle exremely well compared to the truck, you can instantly tell its way better than the truck suspension.

Money isnt really an issue, Personally I cant justify spending twice as much just to have a 4 inch difference in ride height and zero difference in performance, and since the labor is free I cant really go wrong.

Thanks again porterbuilt. Your work is incredible.

[PBFAB.COM]

Outlawc-

Sounds like it will be a good mod for you. If it is going to cost you a lot less and yield a more desireable result than your other option(s) then it sounds like a no brainer! Some guys would have a heart attack at the thought of cutting the front half of their frame off!

Make sure you post up some pics of your progress... (I am interested to see your buddies "jig" that he bolts up)!!!

[smbrouss70]

OK, I know that I'm bringing back the dead, but I have to know if it worked out for you. Any pics of the progress or the finished product?

[see ten]

Hmmm, maybe it was so easy he decided to do something else.

[cameeks]

All of that and no pics and no reply. Sounded like he just wanted to debate with people. It was getting fustrating reading the replys. Kept going in circles for a bit.

[outlawc]

Originally Posted by see ten

Hmmm, maybe it was so easy he decided to do something else.

Originally Posted by cameeks

All of that and no pics and no reply. Sounded like he just wanted to debate with people. It was getting fustrating reading the replys. Kept going in circles for a bit.

No see ten, I am just now getting around to doing it. Between running my own restoration shop by myself, and family obligations my projects always get put to the side. I have just now gotten to a point that I canfree up some time this week to start installing it and I will put up pics as I progress. It is not going to be an everday thing though, so dont expect a daily update. It will be done as I get time, but it will get a camaro subframe.

No cameeks, I dont spend a whole lot of time on the computer so I really hadnt thought much about checking for replies.

Porterbuilt, I was mistaken about the jig for doing this. The frame jig he has built is for doing C-4 corvette suspension similar to what you do.

Here are some pics of one of my friends that did the camaro subframe in his. Sorry I dont have better pics but you get the idea. This is with all stock camaro suspension, no dropped spindles or springs. The wheels are 17x8's with 245/45/17's.

[68shortstep]

GMC looks super-mean, and that rear engine = lotsa luggage space up under the hood ....................

I like the low look, without bags.

I'll be watching for your build.

Photos, please.

[outlawc]

Thanks, mine will sit alittle lower in the front with engine and trans. and I will have coil overs in the back.

He used to have a cover on the bed, should have seen people faces when they would see him drive up then open the hood, only there was nothing there.

[bad6772]

Originally Posted by Shane

400 lbs. is not a lot of weight difference? Since when?

that is alot of weight and one thing i havent seen anybody mention(unless i missed it ) isnt the center of gravity in our trucks versus a camaro is alot different, not matter how you look at it slammed in the weeds and or lifted, i m o i would look at going with a good drop spring and spindle combo,, a big sway bar and go from there just my .02 . my 67 handles likes its on rails and as im shure many do, i just dont see the advantages of a subframe with all the suspension peices made for our trucks....just buy a drop member from porterbuilt and call it a daygood luck on any route you go

[outlawc]

I found this while looking through some old magazines. This truck has a camaro subframe and rearend. Reading this article kind of answered my original question between the ride height differences of sliding the subframe inside the trucks frame versus the truck frame on top of the subframe. This truck has drop spindles and springs so it must have been sat on top of the subframe and sat too high.