Good News On Engine Oil

[Longhorn Man]

There is a huge problem with the "I haven't had any problems yet" mentality...esp if you have 50,000 miles or less.
What "will work" and what Is prefered, ate 2 totally oposite things. The feds say that the new oil formulas "will work" on older engines... and there's been plenty of ppl who "havent had any problems yet"... however, facts are facts, and our old engines NEED the zink or some replacement that has yet to be mentioned, in order to live a long life.

[chipflyer]

however, facts are facts, and our old engines NEED the zink or some replacement that has yet to be mentioned, in order to live a long life.

[kenm78]

I just found this additive and checked the specifications on it and it looks like it has more zink than any other oil .270 here are the links The only bad parts its 14$ a quart??? not to sure it will be worth it.

http://www.valvoline.com/pages/produ...asp?product=21

http://www.valvoline.com/products/Va...0Treatment.pdf

[68caliRat]

I use Motorcycle specific oil in my truck. Right now I'm using Pro Honda oil, but I have used Golden Spectro, and Motul in the truck. All have high sheer strength for the straight cut gears in the motorcycle tranny, and good wear capabilities for my clutch plates. All I know for sure is that my valve train in the truck is a lot quieter using the motorcycle oil..

[lilred67]

Originally Posted by 68caliRat

I use Motorcycle specific oil in my truck. Right now I'm using Pro Honda oil, but I have used Golden Spectro, and Motul in the truck. All have high sheer strength for the straight cut gears in the motorcycle tranny, and good wear capabilities for my clutch plates. All I know for sure is that my valve train in the truck is a lot quieter using the motorcycle oil..

i have often wondered about running motorcycle oil in these motors. i use pro honda oil in my 4-wheeler. valvoline makes a 4-wheeler oil and a motorcycle oil(10/40) that i used as well in my 4-wheeler. i need to do some research and see what kind of zinc levels these oil have.
as far as my truck and the oil i'm using, i will be starting and breaking in my new crate motor next weekend. i poured 5 quarts of the old rottela t 15/40 in it along with a pint of gm's E.O.S.(engine oil supplement)the stuff the fed's made gm quit making because of the zinc content. i bought 14 pints from a gm dealer that still had some in stock. it should last me a while but i'm always looking for the best oil i can run in this new motor....

[webfoot]

VR1 has low zinc, a guy sent some in to blackstone and it came back 763 ppm.

AMSOIL RACING - 3200PPM

CASTROL GTX - 1900PPM

BRAD PENN RACING OIL-2100-2500PPM

REDLINE - 2200-3000PPM

MOBIL - 2500-2900PPM

VALVOLINE DURABLEND 2600PPM

This stuff is supposed to be good:
http://www.lubriplate.com/webstore/detail.aspx?ID=29

[Billla]

Originally Posted by webfoot

VR1 has low zinc, a guy sent some in to blackstone and it came back 763 ppm.

Who is "a guy"? IMHO, I don't buy that number...

[webfoot]

No offense, but don't buy it then, and submit your own! Why would someone lie about lab results? He doesn't own an oil company.

The "guy" is Scott Wheaton over at team chevelle.

[Billla]

Originally Posted by webfoot

No offense, but don't buy it then, and submit your own! Why would someone lie about lab results? He doesn't own an oil company.

The "guy" is Scott Wheaton over at team chevelle.

I'll call Valvoline tomorrow and get their numbers; their MSDM sheet errors out on their web site.

It's not about lying about results - but I do question them based on prior results from Valvoline, and I still have no idea who this is - he's just someone doing research, not a professional engine builder. So yes - it's fair to question the results.

Boy, always nice when someone overreacts just a bit...

[webfoot]

Wasn't overreacting, I posted results performed by a reputable lab company as sent in by a knowledgable guy, and you call BS on it. I posted it as a favor to the board, not to sell anything.

Vr1 advertises itself as oil for "today's engines" which are all roller motors. Roller motors don't need zinc.

[kenm78]

According to Valvolines product sheets in the column it says

Zinc/Phosphorus
0.130/0.120

is this 1300 PPM and 1200PPM??

[webfoot]

Here is a good discussion regarding the vr1 data:

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201446

On another note, if you live where it is cold and your truck is your DD, I wouldn't run a 20w oil!

[Billla]

Originally Posted by webfoot

Wasn't overreacting, I posted results performed by a reputable lab company as sent in by a knowledgable guy, and you call BS on it. I posted it as a favor to the board, not to sell anything.

Vr1 advertises itself as oil for "today's engines" which are all roller motors. Roller motors don't need zinc.

Um...knowledgeable in what way? He's just someone that has taken point - in a good way - on the topic, but he's not an expert by any means. And, in your first post you just noted "a guy"...and your immediate reaction to my questioning the data was to indicate that I was calling him a liar - that's overreacting.

VR1 advertises as "ZDDP additive provides tough anti-wear protection". It's valid to question that, but I'll make my own call to Valvoline (again).

A favor to the board would be to post a link to the thread, as below:

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/show...=201446&page=2

[Jim_PA]

Originally Posted by Longhorn Man

The feds say that the new oil formulas "will work" on older engines...

Yeah, and I'm sure those same feds would prefer that any engine more than 15-20 years old fails early.

[72BLUZ]

just a couple of weeks ago, i was at the machine shop picking up my engine. the machinest and i was discussing shop. me working in the service dept for a peterbilt dealership, and he in the machine shop. we went in and he showed me a printout, i don't remember where he got it. but it stated that delo 400 15/40. delvac 15/40, and rotella 15/40 would be the best oil for tappets and cam break in due to the sulfer content. the reason being that the epa is cutting down on sulfer content. these oils are still good because of the sulfer need in the diesel engines. so now after reading this, and having first hand experience with rotella 15/40. that will be the oil i use for breakin and will use it for the life of the engine.

[WorkinLonghorn]

Here's the goods on Mobil.
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...otor_Oils.aspx

[WorkinLonghorn]

And here is a discussion among an oil industry guy and others on the subject which is pretty interesting.
http://forums.noria.com/eve/forums/a...5/m/9231082891
One guy there says "If you go with STP use the red 4 cylinder stuff. About 1800 ppm zinc and phos. It's a lot thinner than the other. I rather would recommend Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment, 15 oz, which has about 1700 ppm z and p and moly boron and other goodies. Very nice stuff.

Big lots was selling CD2 High Perf Oil Boost which has about 4800 ppm z and p. Also CD2 75K oil add which has about 4000 ppm z and p. There are others if youwant to test them, including some stuff in round quart size by stp and fram.

GM EOS is around 8000 ppm z and p.

Modern oil about 800 ppm z and p. SL was around 1000 ppm. SH IIRC around 1200 ppm.

Citgo Ultralife is 1150 z and 1050 p per phone call to them last year. Or go dual rated diesel/gas oil (SL/CF) which typically has more zddp."
And an excellent article here;
http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html
"However, it is worth noting that these new API guidelines do not need apply to “racing,” “severe duty,” or any motor oils that do not carry an API “starburst” seal or clearly state for off-road-use only. Motor oils meeting “Energy Conserving I or II” standards should be avoided as well as those with an API SM classfication, with it's lower Zn and P levels, which applies only to 0w20, 0w30, 5w20, 5w30, and 10w30 "ILSAC" grades."

[Billla]

I use a 50/50 mix of straight 30W Valvoline and EOS as my standard assembly lube (Lubriplate in high-pressure areas) and recently bought a case as I heard through the grapevine that it was being discontinued. Just saw this tonight (doing research on GMPartsDirect:

GM has reinstated this EOS and the new number is 88862586. Currently it is not yet available but will be soon! Please email us before ordering to insure we can supply you!

This is a nice link on the overall standards; the name of the Demon is GF-4 which mandates < 800 PPM of Phosphorus (ZDDP).
http://www.burkeoil.com/pdf/oilguide.pdf

[webfoot]

Originally Posted by Billla

Um...knowledgeable in what way? He's just someone that has taken point - in a good way - on the topic, but he's not an expert by any means. And, in your first post you just noted "a guy"...and your immediate reaction to my questioning the data was to indicate that I was calling him a liar - that's overreacting.

VR1 advertises as "ZDDP additive provides tough anti-wear protection". It's valid to question that, but I'll make my own call to Valvoline (again).

A favor to the board would be to post a link to the thread, as below:

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/show...=201446&page=2

You are tough to please. Well, I'm sure others will find the info useful. Did you read the link I posted?

If you think you will get unbiased info from valvoline, you have another think coming!

[kenm78]

now Im by far no rocket scientist. But assuming I add 7 quarts of a certain motor oil that says it has 800 PPM of ZDDP in it, does this mean my engine now has 5600 PPM of ZDDP or still just 800 PPM since the level in each oil is the same???

[lilred67]

http://www.valvoline.com/pages/produ...asp?product=76

here is a link for the valvoline 4-stroke motorcycle oil. says it has increased amounts of z & p....

[Billla]

Originally Posted by webfoot

You are tough to please. Well, I'm sure others will find the info useful. Did you read the link I posted?

If you think you will get unbiased info from valvoline, you have another think coming!

I'm just agnostic about "a guy" sending in oil samples and accepting that as gospel. I did read the link - and it's full of information from a variety of sources with contradictions, opposing results, etc. Being agnostic - vs. accepting the comments of "a guy" on the Internet is a healthy attitude vs. the reverse.

I might have another "think" coming, but I've never been given incorrect information by a major manufacturer (and there was no indication this was the case on the thread from any company). I've worked with many products in automotive and aviation applications over the years and had close manufacturer relationships with a number of them. A call to a general hotline isn't going to get the same answer as contacts in their engineering department. VR1 oil specifically states that it's not GF-4 compliant, so I have a hard time believing the ZDDP levels are as tested (less than GF-4 standards). I've got a few oil sample kits from my aircraft and I'm planning to send a few in to see what results I get as well.

Again, the guy is doing good work - but as any scientist would note if you don't get expected results it's worth a retest before making assumptions.

Reposting someone else's information without attribution as gospel isn't useful information IMHO...

[kenm78]

I emailed Royal Purple, Valvoline, and Castrol here are my questions to them and there response..

Royal Purple:

-----Original Message-----
From: mitchell kenneth [mailto:kenm78@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 6:14 PM
To: rpautotech@royalpurple.com
Subject: Zinc in oil???

I am running a early flat tappet cam in my chevy 383
stroker engine and I am concerned with regular oil not
having enough zinc in it what oil do you recomend and
how much zinc is in it??? Thank you


Response:

Only the newer API SM service classification oils have significantly
reduced the levels of anti-wear additives and then only those in the
multi-weight SAE 30's and SAE 20's. These oils (SM) are required to
use
about 20-35% less than the SL to meet EPA emissions requirements.

Royal Purple has continued to make only the API SL and the heavy duty
diesel API CI-4 oils as we are not currently convinced that the API SM
is advancement in engine wear protection, but is a few steps in the
wrong direction in protection.

RP recommends using any of the Royal Purple motor oils in your engine
as
all are high performance and offer superior wear protection. For your
muscle car that has a flat tapped cam- the ultimate would be our XPR
5w30, XPR 10W40 or XPR 20W50 racing oils would be preferred. Other
options would be the RP 10W40, RP 15W40 or RP 20W50 in the street oils
or the MaxCycle 10W40 or MaxCycle 20W50.

As for our levels of ZDDP, we try not to let our products get involved
in the number games of the internet. One reason is that there are oil
companies that strive on numbers alone, rather than concentrating on
the
performance of the oil. Well the problem that can arise is that
company
X could try and get the same numbers as Royal Purple or even higher
although their product may not have the same quality or provide the
same
level protection as ours. It is like making a chocolate cake, there
are
lots of ways to make it, but not all of them have the same number of
eggs. Does this mean the one with more eggs is going to taste better?
No, it depends on what else is done to the mix that gives it its over
all taste. Oil is the same way, the additives make up the oil, but not
just one can determine the over all protection/performance of the oil.
You have to look at the oil as a whole rather than in pieces.

All I can tell you is our motor oil exceeds the levels for the API
service SL and our MaxCycle and XPR are even sturdier than that. Thank
you for understanding the reasoning behind our information being
disclosed.

Here is a list of all of our products that could be used if the main
and
rod clearances fit accordingly-

RP Motor Oil- RP 5w30, RP 10w30, RP 10w40, RP 15w40, RP 20w50 with ZDDP
levels follow the API SL specs

MaxCycle- has a more robust anti-wear package/higher level of ZDDP as
it
is designed from the standards of API SG/SJ specs- MC 10w30, MC 10w40,
MC 20w50

XPR- This is Royal Purple's own secret formulation that was designed
for the harsh conditions of the NHRA, NASCAR and breaking records on
the
Bonneville Salt Flats to a daily driver. It provides the best
protection and performance we can offer and does have the highest level
of ZDDP. XPR is available in- XPR 5w30, XPR 10w40, XPR 20w50



Valvoline said

We recommend our Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil for use. This oil still has the maximum amount of ZDDP additives, and will be perfect for your application.


Castrol said

Thank you for contacting Castrol,


Castrol is aware of articles in enthusiast magazines and web-sites, as well as after-market parts manufacturer discussions concerning GF-4 engine oils and cam-shaft durability issues in older performance vehicles. Some consumers suspect the lower level of ZDDP in GF-4 oils may be causing these failures. Castrol is currently investigating this issue.


For those consumers that wish not to use a GF-4 oil in these vehicles, Castrol does offer the following products that contain Zinc at a level that is typical of the Zinc level found in oils (API SG) marketed during the "muscle car" era of time:


The following Castrol products have Zinc levels that are typical of API SG oil:


1. Castrol Syntec 20W-50 (*NEWLY FORMULATED classic oil formula – see link to website below for information on our new 20W-50 product)

2. Castrol SYNTEC 5W-40

3. Castrol Grand Prix 4T 10W-40 (product has been replaced by Castrol Motorcycle 4T 10W-40)

4. Castrol Grand Prix 4T 20W-50 (product has been replaced by Castrol Motorcycle 4T 20W-50)

5. Castrol GO! ATV 10W-40

6. Castrol GO! ATV 20W-50

7. Castrol TWS Motorsport 10W-60 (full synthetic, available @ BMW dealerships)

8. BMW Long Life 5W-30 (full synthetic, available @ BMW dealerships)

9. Castrol GO! 10W-40 Motorcycle Oil

10. Castrol GO! 20W-50 Motorcycle Oil

If installing a new performance cam in an older performance vehicle, it is important to:

* follow the installation recommendations provided by the cam manufacturer

* use the recommended cam break-in lube

* prime the engine oil circuits

* use the recommended engine oil

*confirm valvetrain geometries prior to starting the engine with the new cam


http://www.castrol.com/castrol/gener...tentId=7032644


Castrol Consumer Relations