Rear axle questions

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by shifty

How tough is it to remove, clean up, reinstall a rear end? I never wanted to touch one in the past because I watched on TV all the hassles some "professional" went through trying to get the right lash on the gears. Looked like a serious pain in the ass.

I've never set one up alone. With the right tools, it wasn't that bad but I didn't have the right tools & still don't feel comfortable setting one up.

ECE has replacement 5-lug axles for $279. I think I could get away with getting new axles, new 5-lug drums, and reusing the '68 drum backing plate and internals (shoes, etc.).

This is exactly how I did mine but I used Moser axles & the local parts house Wagner drums for easier warranty.

[shifty]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

This is exactly how I did mine but I used Moser axles & the local parts house Wagner drums for easier warranty.

Man, I keep picking your brain. Sorry if it bugs the hell outta ya, but I love the fact that you're here and have seriously answered five million questions I have without fail.

What year was the truck you did this on?

If it's a 67-68, in a nutshell, you just took the drum off, popped out the axles, popped in the new axles, then replaced the old 6-lug drum with the new 5-lug drum?

What year were the new 5-lug drums intended for? (I'll probably ask how thick the drum was exentually, also)

Did you change out the wheel bearings and seals, or just leave the old ones in?

[shifty]

Originally Posted by caminokid

I gutted a 77 for my truck. I havent done the swap yet. Are you saying that the axles are too long for the 67 to 72 rear end cases? I was planning taking the axles, backing plates and drums and using them for mine.

I haven't pulled the axles out of my '68 yet, but I can tell you this: The axle tubes+housing is overall approximately 2" longer on the '77. This is a broad assumption for me to make, but if the overall axle/gear housing is 2" longer, and the gears inside the pumpkin are the same size, the only thing that makes sense to me is that the axles are roughly 1" longer each.

[shifty]

Nevermind! Just called Mark @ ECE. Talked to him about the differences. Apparently, as long as it's a 5-lug 11x2 drum from one of the 71-87 pickups, it will bolt-on. Basically, installation is as simple as ... remove original 11x2 6-lug drum, remove pinion bolt, push in axle, remove c-clip, slide out 6-lug axle, slide in 5-lug axle, c-clip it, reinstall pinion bolt, slap on the 5-lug 11x2 drum and ride out

Finally - Something simple and straightforward

Thanks again to all who helped me sort through this, reputation was handed out to those who went above and beyond accordingly.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by shifty

Nevermind! Just called Mark @ ECE. Talked to him about the differences. Apparently, as long as it's a 5-lug 11x2 drum from one of the 71-87 pickups, it will bolt-on. Basically, installation is as simple as ... remove original 11x2 6-lug drum, remove pinion bolt, push in axle, remove c-clip, slide out 6-lug axle, slide in 5-lug axle, c-clip it, reinstall pinion bolt, slap on the 5-lug 11x2 drum and ride out

Finally - Something simple and straightforward

Thanks again to all who helped me sort through this, reputation was handed out to those who went above and beyond accordingly.

Yep, in a nutshell that's how I did mine.

One exception I experienced though was that simple 'push in axles' part wasn't exactly so simple. It required some sanding & deburring of the axle splines. Apparently back in the day GM had a weird 'pitch' spec'd when the splines were cut & newer technology doesn't match it exactly. It took several attempts to get the task completed.

[shifty]

I'll hafta give it a shot. I read your post about the emory cloth, and I inquired about just that - he said these should be a good direct fit with no issues. He'd confirmed that '70+ (or was it 71+?) axles are .75 - 1.0 inches longer each. I think gringoloco told me you could get away with running (I think?) the heavy duty drums that are a little bit wider or something...with the new '73-87 5-lug axles, HD drums and 67-78 rear axle housing.

Beats me. Too much to think about. Time to source out some new 5-lug 71+ drums locally on the cheap. NAPA has them for around $40/ea

[gringoloco]

Originally Posted by shifty

I'll hafta give it a shot. I read your post about the emory cloth, and I inquired about just that - he said these should be a good direct fit with no issues. He'd confirmed that '70+ (or was it 71+?) axles are .75 - 1.0 inches longer each. I think gringoloco told me you could get away with running (I think?) the heavy duty drums that are a little bit wider or something...with the new '73-87 5-lug axles, HD drums and 67-78 rear axle housing.

Beats me. Too much to think about. Time to source out some new 5-lug 71+ drums locally on the cheap. NAPA has them for around $40/ea

Late '70 was when they went to the wide rear. I just did the 6-to-5 lug swap this weekend when I swapped my truck over to coils(bags) from leaves. Same width as the '73-up rear I stole the axles from.

The HD drums are 2.75" which would make up the difference in width between your short housing and long axles when using your stock brakes. The only concern would be whether the axle is machined correctly to still make a good seal at the outer axle seals. I would not try to shorten the '77 axles to install in your housing as it would likely cost more than just buying new axles.

Look for the ratio stamping on the large(ring) gear. It will be stamped on the edge near where it bolts to the carrier, along with a part# and some other(?) stuff...

[67ChevyRedneck]

Hey Jason,

Your tranny is going to have a 0.50:1 final ratio (WS6) which is pretty high. A 700R4 for example has a .7:1 final ratio. You're going to definitely want a 3.73 rear axle in your truck! The WS6 TA's came with a 3.42 rear axle, but they were a much lighter vehicle. You might be able to get away with one in your truck.

If the 77 axle is a 3.08 you definitely don't want to use that!

Wish I could help with the other stuff, but I can't

Sounds like you got it figured out now?

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by 67ChevyRedneck

.... The WS6 TA's came with a 3.42 rear axle, but they were a much lighter vehicle. You might be able to get away with one in your truck.

WS6 T/A's are porky for a 'perf vehicle (3800lbs).

[gringoloco]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

WS6 T/A's are porky for a 'perf vehicle (3800lbs).

And they really come alive with a set of 3.73s or 4.10s...

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by gringoloco

And they really come alive with a set of 3.73s or 4.10s...

Stock gears & a 2600 stall work well too .

[caminokid]

Originally Posted by shifty

Nevermind! Just called Mark @ ECE. Talked to him about the differences. Apparently, as long as it's a 5-lug 11x2 drum from one of the 71-87 pickups, it will bolt-on. Basically, installation is as simple as ... remove original 11x2 6-lug drum, remove pinion bolt, push in axle, remove c-clip, slide out 6-lug axle, slide in 5-lug axle, c-clip it, reinstall pinion bolt, slap on the 5-lug 11x2 drum and ride out

Finally - Something simple and straightforward

Thanks again to all who helped me sort through this, reputation was handed out to those who went above and beyond accordingly.

Ok thanks shifty for posting that! Now I know my idea was right on.

[shifty]

Originally Posted by gringoloco

Look for the ratio stamping on the large(ring) gear. It will be stamped on the edge near where it bolts to the carrier, along with a part# and some other(?) stuff...

I just went out and looked, I don't see anything, even after wiping it totally down. The only numbers that are cast onto it are on the side opposite the ring gear, and this consists of a big #4, a separate big #0, then the numbers '09 01' separated by a space (and yes, I doublechecked them to be sure it wasn't '10 60' or something), then on the opposite side of that is a number '78'. i tried dividing these numbers out in a million different ways and nothing clicks.

[shifty]

Ok, this picture (below) helped immensely. I couldn't see the numbers because the damned ring gear teeth are cut into them. I see a number set 10:34, at least I *THINK* it's a '4' on there, but a couple of the numbers are a little sloppy. I assume this means this rear is a 3.40, which I think is typical of a truck from what I'm reading online.

I would also assume that the '34' is a '34' because I counted 34 teeth on the ring gear, which would lead me to believe the pinion gear has 10.

(NOTE: This following pic is NOT a picture of my ring gear, I found this pic online).

[shifty]

Originally Posted by 67ChevyRedneck

If the 77 axle is a 3.08 you definitely don't want to use that!

Wish I could help with the other stuff, but I can't

Sounds like you got it figured out now?

This might help: http://www.zracer.com/camaro/gear_ratios.htm

Same drivetrain as mine. 3.73 actually looks quite perfect to me, but honestly, 3.40 really doesn't look like it would be *that* bad (see 3.42 example given)

[gringoloco]

Looks like you've got it. 3.40:1 is pretty close to the stock 6-speed F-body gearing, but as stated previously, deeper gears absolutely bring 'em to life. Now It's decision time...

[shifty]

Originally Posted by gringoloco

Looks like you've got it. 3.40:1 is pretty close to the stock 6-speed F-body gearing, but as stated previously, deeper gears absolutely bring 'em to life. Now It's decision time...

Yeah ... locking 3.40 geared rear or (probably) non-locking .73 geared rear.

I mean, for all I know, my truck may have a locking diff in there. Won't know till I get it off. I'll probably stick with what I have and keep the locking diff and consider playing with swapping the rear another day.

[corn]

Shifty, that locker looks like a "gov lock" unit. I havent heard too many good comments on those. Ive never had one so I cant tell you anything from experience though. Im sure someone here will step in...

[67ChevyRedneck]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

WS6 T/A's are porky for a 'perf vehicle (3800lbs).

According to this the curb weight was only 3,417 lbs. This is a typical weight of 4th gens. There's a ***** fest going on over at the different camaro forums that new 5th gen will be between 3,700 and 4,000 lbs. Nobody knows for sure but the G8 is just a hair over 4K lbs! Plus, they're aerodynamic, not a brick turd like our trucks

Jason's truck will probably tip the scales at over 4K after all the mods/additions.

http://www.maximum-cars.com/Cars/Car.php?carnumber=2

[shifty]

Originally Posted by corn

Shifty, that locker looks like a "gov lock" unit. I havent heard too many good comments on those. Ive never had one so I cant tell you anything from experience though. Im sure someone here will step in...

According to the Eaton site, all locking diffs in rear-wheel and 4-wheel drive trucks were G80 "Gov Lock" units. See here at their site:

http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Market...rols/index.htm

I found a long thread about the pros and cons here, with one guy sounding like he knows what he's talking about, explains that they're great street units (?), but you know how the internet is for getting advice

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/eato...ks-105673.html

I dunno... Like I said, I'm gonna stick with what I got for now. I might sell the locking diff on eBay or something. We'll see what happens.

[shifty]

Originally Posted by 67ChevyRedneck

Jason's truck will probably tip the scales at over 4K after all the mods/additions.

Gutted the interior (-??lbs)
Deleted the springs for bags (-50lbs +)
Deleted the bench seat for individual seats (-20lbs +)
Deleted factory control arms for aftermarket tubulars (-25 to -50lbs, I'd bet)
Swapped ECE drop xmember for stock (even trade? maybe +10lbs)
Moved to CPP tubular tranny xmember (-15lbs)
Changing to stock wheels and tires (-60lbs)
Bed removed - for now (-300lbs +)

I'm sure there's more

Not sure if the engine/tranny weighs more or less overall. All aluminum block on the engine, and I believe the T56 is all aluminum housing as well (it looks like it, at least). Beats that big steel inliner and heavy ass 3spd Muncie.

I dunno where I'll come in for weight, just thought I'd point out some differences.

[67ChevyRedneck]

Didn't realize you'd done all that too!!!

I was thinking of stuff you've added. PDB, PS, A/C?? Sway bar?

At any rate, most weigh between 3,700 lbs and 4,000 lbs. I think mine tipped the scales at 3,750 or 3,800lbs subtracting my weight before I did all the swapping and parts adding

[shifty]

Nope, A/C is deleted, thus the airbox is out. My dash is pretty much empty underneath except for the radio, ashtray, glovebox, windshield washer/wiper motor. I did upgrade to power steering, though, which means bigger/heavier gearbox and I am going drum->disc in front.

I'll probably add stuff later, but my truck is basically gutted at this point. Not even a tank in the cab (it's behind rear wheels)

[scottrod71]

Just wanted to add my 2 cents on the swap. I just did a swap to 5 lug on my 69 C10 and bought all the parts from ECE. I was very impressed with the quality and fit. The rear axle kit ($319) does come with bearings, seals, and the lug studs already pressed onto the flange. No drums in the kit but they are cheap. I bought mine for about $25 each. The front disc kit is a little pricey but it comes with everything and it all fits perfectly.
I added power brakes and a new master cylinder at the same time and about went thru the windsheild. You don't realize how much pressure you put on those old non-power drum brakes until you change them out. I love how it stops now.
Also, I have the later, wider 12 bolt rear axle with 3.08 gearing. I love it. It will cruise all day at 70 to 75 mph at a reasonable RPM. True, it isn't as quick off the line but with a small block and the 4 speed, it works just fine for me.

[shifty]

Originally Posted by scottrod71

Also, I have the later, wider 12 bolt rear axle with 3.08 gearing. I love it. It will cruise all day at 70 to 75 mph at a reasonable RPM. True, it isn't as quick off the line but with a small block and the 4 speed, it works just fine for me.

I have an LS1 with a 6-speed T56.