25$ paintjob?

[Shane]

Originally Posted by Slowlearn

Is the Rustoleum harder to remove than other paint?

I wouldn't say "harder" ... just a bit more time consuming.

This is straight from the mopar site. Rustoleum is best used on crap that doesn't matter ... much like grandma's steel lawn furniture and this Mitsubishi Diamante.

[WestButteTruck]

Originally Posted by vintagesteel

Why pay for sand paper. just pull off a couple lengths of tape and drop it in a sand box. If you have to remove a lot of material drop the tape in the gravel in the driveway. To me, and this will probably piss some people off, If you cant afford at least a NASON urethane factory pack (@$130) you probably have more to worry about than how your car LOOKS!

Shoot, I get all my sandpaper for free right off the role in the mens restroom at work. Depending on the supplier, I have grits ranging from 80 up to at least 400.

[vintagesteel]

Originally Posted by WestButteTruck

Shoot, I get all my sandpaper for free right off the role in the mens restroom at work. Depending on the supplier, I have grits ranging from 80 up to at least 400.

thats a great idea. my way you are waisting tape. actually you don't even have to buy tape. Honest to god, I witnessed an "UNDOCUMENTED WORKER" use VASELINE!!! smeared it on the trim and windows and painted right over it!!!! I bet if we keep going, we can get this job to around $15.

[MDC]

Well instead of bashing the general concept, why don't you fill some folks in on what they might be in for by using this method instead of sitting in the corner waiting on a frosty beverage. Let everyone be informed of the pros and cons and let them make the decision. Isn't this what this site is for?

[Shane]

My last post demonstrates all to well why I believe this type of paint shouldn't be used in automotive applications. If you would have read the entire post before flaming me you would have seen this.

With that being said, I'm open to a constructive & positive discussion if you can tell my how using Rustoleum is a good idea.

I now turn the floor over to you, Mr. Earl Sheib.

[MDC]

I'm not flaming any one and didn't mean for it to come off that way. I did read the entire post and saw your pic, but that is not an explanation. With my limited knowledge, I can tell there was no prep work done on the Mitsu. Here is a pic at the other end of the spectrum
I'm sure there are many varibles that would cause the difference in the two. I can afford a spray gun, but don't have access to a booth. I want to do at least the majority the work myself. I don't paint for a living but would like to learn how. For those that can't spray or are on a tight budget, this looks like a reasonable alternative if they don't know what the downfalls can be. Maybe if you could go into a little more detail of what can happen if you ever want to remove it. What makes it more time consuming than any other paint to remove? The PO of mine used enamel sign paint. It is 1/32" thick and chips like an old roasting pan. I can't imagine it being harder than that to remove. Just looking for all the facts.
My name is Mike

[KrazyKevin]

I agree 100% with you Mike. I've seen worse traditional paint jobs than the mitsu above. And the flat black truck is pretty sweet. Some 16 year old would kill to have something like that. And be damn proud of it to. Hell, even I would. Other than hard to get off, why is this so bad, other than it doesn't cost over 1000 dollars??

PS, the yellow truck looks good to.

[drewdude92]

thank you MDC ive always gotten pretty good helpful tips from people but...this thread i just felt helpless...but thanks sooo hmmm im guessin since all the negative feedback this is the most horrible solution on the earth to get your truck some new paint....

[69face]

i did it. the pros are of course the price. the cons are that as with any paint job if you don't do the prep work you're screwed. i didn't do anything but wet sand the original flat black rattle can job with 400 grit, mask and sprayed( i tried roller on another vehicle and the top surfaces didn't even out for me), and it was an awesome driver. here's a link
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2876332

[Richard8971]

Originally Posted by MDC

Well instead of bashing the general concept, why don't you fill some folks in on what they might be in for by using this method instead of sitting in the corner waiting on a frosty beverage. Let everyone be informed of the pros and cons and let them make the decision. Isn't this what this site is for?

We have tried (in other threads) to let people know what the pros and cons of rolling (or spraying using cans) paint jobs can be. It really doesn't matter what the "professionals" say about this, honestly. Sadly most of the guys on here who are looking to roll on rusteloum are not interested in our opinion and quite a few get upset when we try to suggest spraying the paint on, using automotive grade paint. This is one reason why I don't offer suggestions much anymore in the body and paint section.

Shane, Vintagesteel, Mike85 and myself, (I'm not suggesting that these are the only "pros" in here, there are several guys on here who know their stuff, just listing a few of the more common guys to submit advice) work or have worked for several years in the collision field and know a thing or two about body work and paint. Bottom line, Rustoleum was not designed for automotive use and is a non-catalyzed paint. That in itself is reason enough for me not to use it or even recommend it for this kind of use. And for the record, if I wish to offer Shane a beer, that is my business

Originally Posted by Slowlearn

Amen. I read this stuff to learn, not to be lectured. Some of the pro's need to take a chill pill. Just because you do something for 20 years doesn't mean you have all the right answers, evidence my golf swing.

This isn't something I would do to my truck, but I'm not spending $15k on a paint job, so I can have a lawn ornament either. I want to drive and use my vintage truck.

There is nothing inherently bad with using this painting system. It just produces different results. Whether it is satisfactory, is totally up to the owner of the truck and how he intends to use his vehicle. Paint is just a rust inhibitor, not a religion, measure of masculinity, or suavez cool.

I'd like someone who has done this to give a first person report on the pros and cons from their point of view.

We are taking a "chill pill", so to speak. I think the guys on here will know what I am saying that we do learn from trial and error. We offer suggestions like these because we have seen the end results of using Rustoleum on cars and we want to spare others the end results of using it. I personally don't think we are lecturing either. If you post a thread on here, expect all different kinds of answers, the good and the bad. (good and bad as per personal opinions)

Funny enough, only the people who actually work for a living in the collision field do not recommend using Rustoleum. Just something to think about...

If you choose only the answers that fit your personal opinions, that is not learning. I am not saying this to you personally, that advice applies to me more than anyone. I would like to think that the reason I do know as much as I do about the body and paint world is because I have listened to other's opinions and applied them, whether I agreeded with it or not.

Your right, this isn't a religion, and we don't have all the right answers, but we do have experience using these kinds of paints. Again, every time we suggest spaying using quality automotive grade paint people get upset. I suppose if you bought a Yugo, it will get you from point A to point B... In my opinion, based on my previous experience using Rustoleum, suggesting that it is not inherently bad is like suggesting that using your cell phone to hammer in a nail is a good idea. Yeah, you can do it, but should you? Using a hammer will produce different results than using your cell. One was designed for the job, one wasn't, but you can use both...

If any of the Mods think I overstepped the bounds, please let me know. I will edit it, but I think I got the point across.

D

[vintagesteel]

I agree 200%. Seems like people think there is only 2 types of paint jobs. Less than $100 or more than $10000. This is farthest from the truth. I would take my truck to maaco before I ever THOUGHT about rustoleum. Do all the prep work yourself And wet sand and polish yourself after. They use urethane automotive paint, and it will only cost @$300-400. If that is too much Nason factory packs(which you can get at any DuPont paint store, O'Reilly's, etc...) are @$130. They come with a gallon of paint, quart of activator, and a gallon of reducer. It's not the best, but for low budget you can't beat it,and it is lightyears ahead of ANYTHING rustoleum has. My idea of "low budget" is @$500. Apparantly to others it's less than $100. I just think that if you can't afford the $130 for DECENT automotive grade paint, then you have other things to worry about than "fixing up" your truck. With that said, I appologize for coming off as a dick.
Like Richard said. Shane, Richard, Mike85 and several others are only trying to HELP. Look back at any of our other posts and you will see that the information we give is from experience. Things we learn and practice EVERYDAY. If I can save someone the headaches I've had to go through by helping them, then I will. To me, it is a shame that people like Richard and Shane don't post as much anymore because of stuff like this. These people (and Mike85 and others) have vast amounts of information that you have the opportunity to tap into and use. Cherish it. They don't have to be here. They are because of there passion for what we do. And I appologize again.

[MDC]

Originally Posted by Richard8971

We have tried (in other threads) to let people know what the pros and cons of rolling (or spraying using cans) paint jobs can be. It really doesn't matter what the "professionals" say about this, honestly. Sadly most of the guys on here who are looking to roll on rusteloum are not interested in our opinion and quite a few get upset when we try to suggest spraying the paint on, using automotive grade paint. This is one reason why I don't offer suggestions much anymore in the body and paint section.

Shane, Vintagesteel, Mike85 and myself, (I'm not suggesting that these are the only "pros" in here, there are several guys on here who know their stuff, just listing a few of the more common guys to submit advice) work or have worked for several years in the collision field and know a thing or two about body work and paint. Bottom line, Rustoleum was not designed for automotive use and is a non-catalyzed paint. That in itself is reason enough for me not to use it or even recommend it for this kind of use. And for the record, if I wish to offer Shane a beer, that is my business


D

Again, my point is, please explain why. Educate us or show links to the other threads. I'm not trying to be a dick, but I don't know the difference in non-catalized paint or any other and though this might be a way to find out.

[vintagesteel]

Originally Posted by 69face

i did it. the pros are of course the price. the cons are that as with any paint job if you don't do the prep work you're screwed. i didn't do anything but wet sand the original flat black rattle can job with 400 grit, mask and sprayed( i tried roller on another vehicle and the top surfaces didn't even out for me), and it was an awesome driver. here's a link
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2876332

This is exactly what I'm talking about.Lot of time and money spent on this car. Engine, trans, wheels, tires, supension. Oh, then $20 on paint job. Looks like an after thought. I would walk right by this car and all I would think is nice wheels. Nobody I know would give this car a second look. And THAT IS A SHAME! This car deserves more. $500.00 in materials is all it would have taken to make this car stand out. Or you could have preped and shot the car in epoxy prime and saved for a paint job.(I'm sure you're like most of us and had to save for what you've done.) If I can figure out why I can't post a picture i'll show you why.

[Mike 85]

Another reason some paint jobs cost in the 10K and up range is,repairs done previously such as this.C'board/screen wire as patch panels and Bondo built a foot thick,rust encapsulators gone wrong,basically a big ass mess and ALL this has to be removed and replaced with the correct procedures as in the end,
OUR reputation is on the line and "if" something fails,YOU will be expecting US to fix it for FREE.
People who dive off into a project soon find out that there is a reason this is called,
body WORK and a paint JOB......
Doing it yourself costs you nothing in labor but your time & money.Cheap as it gets.
You expect someone else to do it and nobody works for free.Someone quotes you a bottom barrel price and you better question why.
Econo,3 coats of paint for $125.00.............
Unfortunately,My father beat into my head from an early age that there is only one way to do anything and thats the right way.Just because nobody will see it,I'll know.
I "like" to piss people off at times cause that seems to be the only way to make them really think about what their doing and most don't like to know their wrong but in the end,realize they were and we end up being good friends.
People "believe" that these Miracle Products are just that and the cheaper,the better.When in reality,they spend more time and money than if they would have followed a few tried and true methods and have a better job just because of the simple fact of a "little" more elbow grease.
Nothing worth while is EASY. If it is,then you better "think" about it.
If you choose to not take our advice,thats your prerogative.
We are only trying to help and keep you from the same pit's we have fallen into clawing and scratching our way out of and get you the BEST possiable job for YOUR money and one that WILL last.
As I always say,
It's YOUR project,Do it however YOU want.
Hopefully those who want to pursue this style of paint can find the information our Mopar brothers have provided useful.
I consider it an honor to be included with the likes of Richard,Vintage,Shane,Mike and the other pro's here.I'm no "pro" but a serious hobbyist who has spent the last several years doing p&b and learned by experience,hard work,and LISTENING to the advice of VERY knowledgeable people.

As to the question MDC asks. It's called the SUN.
Uncatylized paints have NO UV protection and WILL quickly fade.
Their simple binders,solvents & pigments,
Then you have the strength of the product.Think of it as the difference between mud and concrete. You can build a structure out of both but one will be MUCH stronger than the other.
Just imagine what your gas fill area will look like after a few spills at the pump.
Swapping that carb out and dribble gas all over a fender......
Little brake fluid for good measure....

For a "lesson" in paint,Call Barry at Southern Polyurethanes Tech line.
He makes these products and can tell you everything you will want and more.

[MDC]

Mike85
thank you for the explanation. That is what I am looking for and it makes good sense. No one else has said "it won't hold up to chemicals or the sun". I will call Barry to find out what I need to do. Once my truck (and cutlass) is done and someone asks 'who did your paint' I want to be able to say 'I did'. I'm not pissed at Don, Shane or VintageSteel or anyone else who says this isn't a good idea, just trying to get more detailed information.
Can anyone recomend a book to read that will explain the differences in products and how to use them?

[Richard8971]

OK, here are some of the pros and cons of each.

Rustoleum:

Pros: Cheap and easy to obtain. Can be spayed or rolled on, making it a practical choice for do-it-yourselfers because you don't need a booth to roll on paint.

Cons: The time involved with rolling, color sanding, rolling more and then buffing outweigh the cost. You end up spending way more time forcing a product to do something it was not designed to do.* Rustoleum is not catalyzed, meaning it will not hold up well against the elements and chemicals, will scratch easy, much much easier than catalyzed paint. It can also fade faster than automotive grade paint. Rustoleum will be more difficult to repair if respraying is needed.

*-This is true even among automotive grade paint. Cheaper paint is not always the best choice as the cheaper brands can be harder to spray and more effort is involved to make them look good. Repairability is greatly affected by the cost of the paint. Generally the more expensive brands of automotive grade paint perform better thant he cheaper brands, meaning the extra cost involved means less time spraying and working with the product.

Automotive grade paint (acrylic enamel, urethane... etc):

Pros: Designed for automotive use and is catalyzed, meaning that it will hold up much better to the elements and chemicals. Easier to repair and will hold a deeper gloss longer. Spraying a car takes hours vs. days rolling a paint job on, and you will have a much more durable finish when you are done.

Cons: Can be more expensive depending on the type of paint and color bought. Cannot be rolled on meaning you should use a booth, which limits some do-it-your-selfers.

Little chemistry lesson. A catalyst is a chemical added to enamel and urethane paint to help it cross-link and harden. Most paints that are not catalyzed air-dry just fine, but they lack durability.

Adding hardener (another name for catalyst) causes a chemical reaction to the paint that forces it to dry and become hard and durable. Catalyzed paints are not easily affected by chemicals and wear and do not scratch easy.

MDC: check with your local automotive supply store. They will have all the information you need on all the different kinds of paints.

[carpainter]

Originally Posted by MDC

Mike85
thank you for the explanation. That is what I am looking for and it makes good sense. No one else has said "it won't hold up to chemicals or the sun". I will call Barry to find out what I need to do. Once my truck (and cutlass) is done and someone asks 'who did your paint' I want to be able to say 'I did'. I'm not pissed at Don, Shane or VintageSteel or anyone else who says this isn't a good idea, just trying to get more detailed information.
Can anyone recomend a book to read that will explain the differences in products and how to use them?

All paint products have Technical Data Sheets that will explain how to mix, air pressure, gun tip size, ect. There is usually a description of the product as well telling why you might want to use it. Any place that sells automotive paint should have these available. If not, you should be able to download them from the company website.

[carpainter]

This has turned into an interesting post. I have read with much amusement the comments by Richard, Mike and Vintage. It sounds just like me in front of my class trying to explain this stuff. As usually happens, some will get it, some will not. There have been numerous posts on the pros and cons of lacquer, single stage paint and non-catalyzed paint like Rustoleum. If I may, let me make a short list of paint types.
1. Lacquer based paint - this includes "rattle can" paint. I shudder when I read on this forum about someone proudly proclaiming they used "rattle can paint" on their truck. Lacquer based paint is a paint that is in-between being dry and wet. There is no hardener in it to link up with the paint so if another paint is sprayed on top of it, it may try to re-wet itself. That is why it wrinkles up sometimes. This is called lifting. The solvent in the paint you just applied is reacting with the lacquer and making the lacquer wet again. The lacquer vapor then pushes against the paint film you just applied and pushes it up. There is no UV protection with lacquer paint.
2. Rustoleum is an enamel paint with no hardener so again, it is somewhat like lacquer in that it is in between being wet and dry. If you try to sand this after it is "dry", you'll see what I mean. Nasty to try and sand off. It usually just balls up and fills your sandpaper. There is a hardener available for this paint but I still wouldn't use it. There is no UV protection with this paint.
3. Acrylic Urethane is the best paint to use for UV protection, hardness and durability. People ask me all the time what paint to use. I always tell them if you stick with urethane you can't go wrong (my 2 cents)
Hope this helps clarify some questions about paint. If I missed something or mis-stated a fact, I'm sure someone will catch it.....lol.
Don't even get me started on paint guns (hvlp)

[Richard8971]

Originally Posted by carpainter

This has turned into an interesting post. I have read with much amusement the comments by Richard, Mike and Vintage. It sounds just like me in front of my class trying to explain this stuff. As usually happens, some will get it, some will not. There have been numerous posts on the pros and cons of lacquer, single stage paint and non-catalyzed paint like Rustoleum. If I may, let me make a short list of paint types.
1. Lacquer based paint - this includes "rattle can" paint. I shudder when I read on this forum about someone proudly proclaiming they used "rattle can paint" on their truck. Lacquer based paint is a paint that is in-between being dry and wet. There is no hardener in it to link up with the paint so if another paint is sprayed on top of it, it may try to re-wet itself. That is why it wrinkles up sometimes. This is called lifting. The solvent in the paint you just applied is reacting with the lacquer and making the lacquer wet again. The lacquer vapor then pushes against the paint film you just applied and pushes it up. There is no UV protection with lacquer paint.
2. Rustoleum is an enamel paint with no hardener so again, it is somewhat like lacquer in that it is in between being wet and dry. If you try to sand this after it is "dry", you'll see what I mean. Nasty to try and sand off. It usually just balls up and fills your sandpaper. There is a hardener available for this paint but I still wouldn't use it. There is no UV protection with this paint.
3. Acrylic Urethane is the best paint to use for UV protection, hardness and durability. People ask me all the time what paint to use. I always tell them if you stick with urethane you can't go wrong (my 2 cents)
Hope this helps clarify some questions about paint. If I missed something or mis-stated a fact, I'm sure someone will catch it.....lol.
Don't even get me started on paint guns (hvlp)

Hey Robert, thanks for the input. I am sure you will quickly find out, most of the time someone posts a question regarding rolled on paint jobs or using spray cans, it turns into these kind of threads.

It is almost impossible for those who have used these products before to stay silent when people ask about using them.

This is kind of like the newbie painter who discovers masking tape on sale at the dollar store or on sale at Home Depot and scoffs at the 3-4 dollar price at the automotive store.

They laugh until they have to take it off of the car.... then they realize why automotive painting tape is 4 times more expensive. This is very much a live and learn field. Sometimes you just have to go down the bad road to find out why it other people called it a bad way to go.

Like has been said before, it is your car, refinish it how you like. But if you post questions on here, expect answers you may not like getting. Some of the guys who respond are not "soft" when it comes to giving advice. They will be very point blank honest with you, even if the news is not good.

Don

[Richard8971]

Originally Posted by Slowlearn

Amen. I read this stuff to learn, not to be lectured. Some of the pro's need to take a chill pill. Just because you do something for 20 years doesn't mean you have all the right answers, evidence my golf swing.

The only thing I can think of when you said that is, if you made your living being a golfer and if you haven't improved your swing in 20 years, you won't make much money being a golfer. (and might be looking for a new line of work)

I make my living painting cars and so do some of the other guys on here. Daily I/we have to learn new products and new ways of thinking and application techniques. If we didn't have the right answers or know where to get them, we would soon be starving along with our families.

I am not picking on you, just suggesting that maybe we do know from time to time what we are talking about. We have made it our life to know...

Don

[Shane]

I've been out of town since Friday so I've missed out on a lot. Anywhoo ... Mike 85, vintagesteel and Richard have all explained it more thoroughly than I ever could.

It always humors me when someone comes up with some super-duper new way of doing things and thinks he can save a nickel or two. And also actually thinks no one anywhere has ever had this same idea OR ever tried it before.

Listen folks, there is NOTHING new under the sun, it's all been tried before.

If I go to someone for advice, I ask my question and then listen. If you're not gonna bother to listen, then why even bother to ask.

OK gang, I'm outta here ... I gotta get going ... gonna paint Grandma's lawn furniture with some 2 stage DuPont ChromoBase.

[Richard8971]

Originally Posted by Shane

gonna paint Grandma's lawn furniture with some 2 stage DuPont ChromoBase.

You would.

Don

[Shane]

I need some 3M 1/8" FineLine tape for the flames ... you got any you can spare Don ... I'm fresh out.

[Richard8971]

Originally Posted by Shane

I need some 3M 1/8" FineLine tape for the flames ... you got any you can spare Don ... I'm fresh out.

Yeah I do, I'll run it right over to you!

D

[bad6772]

LOL.........Use Scotch tape Shane its the new thing........lol