T5 clutch question

[padresag]

remember you may have to shorten the pilot shaft part a bit and clean up the spline a little at the trans end so that the clutch disc goes back far enough. you may be aware of these things.
ron

[jocko]

HA! Just checkin... Took mine out today. I think I've got a problem....

My input shaft is too long (which I was expecting), BUT(!) I was also hoping that my 66's bell housing would have the larger opening for the big index ring (i.e. the WRONG one for the T5), but the index ring on my old bell was the smaller one - the correct one for a T5. Ugh. Now, unless I'm losing my mind - that means the Hamilton adapter WON'T work becuase you have to have both problems for it to be workable (i.e. long input shaft AND the large index ring bell housing - and THEN the Hamilton adapter will work).

So, I'm a little stumped. Just spent the past half hour scrubbing the grease out of the back of my head from laying on the garage floor. I went through a whole box of blue gloves and still got covered from head to toe, but that's part of the fun (I guess....)

At this point, I think my options are:
a. find a large opening bell housing and use the Hamilton plate
or
b. take the T5 to a trans shop and get the shorter input shaft (and correct i/p collar length - my T5's is too long I think). This way I can just pop the T5 into my current bell housing and all will fit just fine). But this could get a little expensive. Because if I do it, I'll probably have them put the camaro 1st gear in also (since I'd prefer the 2.9-ish vice my T5's current 3.76).
or
c. Just do what padre mentioned above, get the shaft shortened and some more spline cut in... SHOULD a competent trans shop know how to do this? If ya gotta take the input shaft out anyway, wouldn't it be simpler to just get a camaro i/p shaft put in instead - it'd be the correct length, etc. Interested in comments on this, specifically! Might be the cheapest option and would still allow me to use an 11" astro van 14 splin clutch (as opposed to the need to get a camaro clutch if I put in a camaro i/p shaft).

Anyone got any better ideas? Again, here's the problem in a nutshell:
My 66's bell housing opening and the T5 index ring match in size (i.e. both are the smaller diameter).
AND
my T5's input shaft (and collar) is too long.

So, because the bell opeing is the RIGHT one for the T5 and the input shaft length is the WRONG one for my truck, I cannot use the Hamilton adapter plate. Appreciate any help.

By the way, the bell housing with the frame mounts made it "not so fun" to get the clutch, pressure plate, and then the bell housing itself off the truck. Holy frijoles, that was a lot harder than I recall on my 57 chev... Finally tilted the engine a little fwd and got everything to drop out. Luckily not on my head. (had a minor (ok MAJOR) scare when I rotated the engine via the flywheel and heard a nasty crunching sound - I thought I had dented my oil pan by using a block of wood on top of my floor jack to tilt the rear of the engine fwd (carefully) so I could wiggle the bell out - so was afraid the noise was the crank rubbin something inside the pan... It "looked" a little dented, but it wasn't - it was just the fan rubbin the shroud because the engine's tilted forward temporarily - WHEW!)....

Good news is I finally got some fluid for my parts washer so I can clean all this crap up. Man o man, that solvent crap is expensive.... (at NAPA).

Oh well, gotta run. To the parts store, of course....

Hey nachodog - sorry, don't want to hijack your thread - but we're kinda doing the same thing! I may post another one just to not horn in.

But the pic proves it - no turning back now....

[70BLAZERX2]

I am doing the same swap only on a 71 c/10

I got the 11 inch 14 spline disc from summitracing and it was only $55 shipped

it was a zoom clutch disc and fit just great..and the parts store wanted 110 for the disc only.

I have 3 more T5's here 2 out of 89 s10's and one out of a 89 astro van 2.5 that has a wierd shifter on it

[jocko]

70blazer - any issues with bell hsg/indexing ring mismatch or input shaft issues?

Wish I could get by with just a disk, but I am gonna need a flywheel, pressure plate, and disk... Weee!

[padresag]

Originally Posted by jocko

HA! Just checkin... Took mine out today. I think I've got a problem....

My input shaft is too long (which I was expecting), BUT(!) I was also hoping that my 66's bell housing would have the larger opening for the big index ring (i.e. the WRONG one for the T5), but the index ring on my old bell was the smaller one - the correct one for a T5. Ugh. Now, unless I'm losing my mind - that means the Hamilton adapter WON'T work becuase you have to have both problems for it to be workable (i.e. long input shaft AND the large index ring bell housing - and THEN the Hamilton adapter will work).

So, I'm a little stumped. Just spent the past half hour scrubbing the grease out of the back of my head from laying on the garage floor. I went through a whole box of blue gloves and still got covered from head to toe, but that's part of the fun (I guess....)

At this point, I think my options are:
a. find a large opening bell housing and use the Hamilton plate
or
b. take the T5 to a trans shop and get the shorter input shaft (and correct i/p collar length - my T5's is too long I think). This way I can just pop the T5 into my current bell housing and all will fit just fine). But this could get a little expensive. Because if I do it, I'll probably have them put the camaro 1st gear in also (since I'd prefer the 2.9-ish vice my T5's current 3.76).
or
c. Just do what padre mentioned above, get the shaft shortened and some more spline cut in... SHOULD a competent trans shop know how to do this? If ya gotta take the input shaft out anyway, wouldn't it be simpler to just get a camaro i/p shaft put in instead - it'd be the correct length, etc. Interested in comments on this, specifically! Might be the cheapest option and would still allow me to use an 11" astro van 14 splin clutch (as opposed to the need to get a camaro clutch if I put in a camaro i/p shaft).

Anyone got any better ideas? Again, here's the problem in a nutshell:
My 66's bell housing opening and the T5 index ring match in size (i.e. both are the smaller diameter).
AND
my T5's input shaft (and collar) is too long.

So, because the bell opeing is the RIGHT one for the T5 and the input shaft length is the WRONG one for my truck, I cannot use the Hamilton adapter plate. Appreciate any help.

By the way, the bell housing with the frame mounts made it "not so fun" to get the clutch, pressure plate, and then the bell housing itself off the truck. Holy frijoles, that was a lot harder than I recall on my 57 chev... Finally tilted the engine a little fwd and got everything to drop out. Luckily not on my head. (had a minor (ok MAJOR) scare when I rotated the engine via the flywheel and heard a nasty crunching sound - I thought I had dented my oil pan by using a block of wood on top of my floor jack to tilt the rear of the engine fwd (carefully) so I could wiggle the bell out - so was afraid the noise was the crank rubbin something inside the pan... It "looked" a little dented, but it wasn't - it was just the fan rubbin the shroud because the engine's tilted forward temporarily - WHEW!)....

Good news is I finally got some fluid for my parts washer so I can clean all this crap up. Man o man, that solvent crap is expensive.... (at NAPA).

Oh well, gotta run. To the parts store, of course....

Hey nachodog - sorry, don't want to hijack your thread - but we're kinda doing the same thing! I may post another one just to not horn in.

But the pic proves it - no turning back now....

hey ; you can do it all by yourself. if I remember properly you just cut 1/4" off the frt of the pilot shaft. 4 1/2" angle grinder with a cut of wheel and bevel the frt corner of the pilot shaft a hair so that it makes it easier for it to enter the pilot bushing. you can clean up those splines with a small file and you may just have to ease the female spline on the trans side of the clutch disc. just enough so that the clutch disc is free of the flywheel when the clutch pedal is depressed.there is enough written info on it. Who ever that you take it to will more than likely do the same thing that I just mentioned. you have to learn how to do things for yourself if your going to keep this thing for awhile or have deep pockets
ron
the alternative is to take your b/housing to a machine shop and have them make a 1/4" plate to match the b/housing and the frt brg retainer...... or they can enlarge the frt brg retainer hole to match your other adaptor

[jocko]

Thanks Ron. Not a matter of "to cut or not to cut" with a cutoff wheel - I've got no problem doing that - but the real issue is whether or not I'll have sufficient splined area placement. At first, (i.e. before I started measuring) I thought I could not just lop off the narrow dia i/p shaft end because there wouldn't be enough of the small dia i/p shaft tip left to go into the pilot bearing. But once I did measure - here's what I found:
- trans mount surface to tip of i/p shaft: 3-spd = 6+5/8" ... T5 = 7+1/16" (so, ~7/16" diff)
- length of narrow pilot bearing part of shaft: 3-spd = 7/8" ... T5 = 1+3/16" (so, ~5/16" diff).

So, I MAY have enough to work with - the other issue is that the i/p retaining collar is about 1+3/8" longer on the T5, i.e. much less exposed spline than the 3-spd. Could take a cutoff wheel to that too, or possibly swap collars between the transmissions if that's possible, BUT, I still come back to the real issue - whether or not the splined area will fully engage the clutch disk. That can't be fixed with a file, unfortunately.

Don't have deep pockets, and actually enjoy when I get to take the cutoff wheel to something - but, since the parts exist in other transmissions (i.e. camaro trans), the correct length i/p shafts are out there and it might be worth it to find one to avoid the cutoff wheel approach, if possible. I always lean more to the cutoff wheel as a last resort because swapping of factory parts ensures a correct fit/engagement. But it may just come to that before it's over with! Thanks for the input.

[oldtrux]

hey jocko,just curious does your truck have a removable hump floor?i,m eventually doing a similar swap.my truck is a 283 with non removable low hump floor and wondering about any t5 floor clearance issues although i dont think there would be any problems.thanks dan

[jocko]

i believe I have the same - havent removed my rubber mat yet though (and never have in the past!) so not positive - working on all the under truck stuff right now. Regardless, have heard from several sources that T5 will fit under a low hump.

I believe to make life simpler, I'm going to cut out the rivets holding the bell hsg cross-member in and make it a removeable crossmember. It was exactly in the way of removing the stuff, and sticking it back in will be an issue - plus, would be nice to make it removeable.

[oldtrux]

that's a great idea,removable crossmember would make it a lot easier to work on these things.thanks jocko.i dont think floor clearance will be a problem either,just wanted to verify.

[padresag]

Originally Posted by jocko

i believe I have the same - havent removed my rubber mat yet though (and never have in the past!) so not positive - working on all the under truck stuff right now. Regardless, have heard from several sources that T5 will fit under a low hump.

I believe to make life simpler, I'm going to cut out the rivets holding the bell hsg cross-member in and make it a removeable crossmember. It was exactly in the way of removing the stuff, and sticking it back in will be an issue - plus, would be nice to make it removeable.

i think that your just making yourself more work
ron

[Wrenchbender Ret]

To prepare the front of the trans. Remove the front brg. retainer & measure the length of the one on the old trans. You can cut the T-5 coller with a hacksaw to the same length. Do the same with the pilot end of the shaft. Cut it with a die grinder. Slide the clutch disc on the shaft & mark where it stops. Grind the grooves in the splines so the disc will slide on about 3/8 in. further. Drill the mounting holes out to 1/2 in. Get 2 allen head bolts for the upper mounting bolts & bolts & nuts for the lower.

[jocko]

Wrenchbender, thanks very much, that's what I'm lookin for. All makes sense except one thing - and it's the thing that has been puzzling me all along - when you say:

"Slide the clutch disc on the shaft & mark where it stops. Grind the grooves in the splines so the disc will slide on about 3/8 in. further"

Can you elaborate? How do you actually grind the grooves? I'm assuming that the splines on the T5's input shaft stop too short and the spline grooves are bottoming out on the clutch hub before the trans is fully engaged - is this correct as to what the problem is?

If so - then here's my question - are you grinding some surface off the clutch disk hub on the trans side so that it won't bottom out on the splines on the input shaft (this seems like it would weaken the hub or at the very least, the splines of the input shaft would be engaging less surface area on the clutch disk hub splines).
-OR-
Are you actually grinding the grooves on the input shaft to make the grooves/splines go further down the shaft?? (This seems it would be extremely difficult to do at home - would need to be done by a machine shop to cut longer splines in the input shaft, wouldn't you?)

Thanks for posting - this is THE one thing that has been puzzling me for a good while. Just wondering if it's easier to somehow put a first gearset from a camaro and a camaro's input shaft etc.

But great gouge - I can cut the retainer collar and input pilot bearing point down to the required length.

Thanks again.

BTW - OldTrux - I missed the fact that the "top" ears of the trans bell housing crossmember has rivets in it also. Will be extremely difficult to get to (without a very good air chisel, etc). But now way no how with a cutoff wheel like I was planning. Sure would have been nice to have a removeable crossmember there, but it will be more difficult than I thought at first.

[nachodog2]

Finally got the t5 swap done. To answer jocko, i shift into second before crossing the whole intersection but it is a world of difference from my sm420. Gonna remove the e-brake cable brackets and relocate them cuz the crossmember there will work perfect for the trans mount. Need to cut and redo the stock shifter to get a tall one in there and new speedo cable, stock one is too short now. Hit a nice stretch of street and the work was well worth it. Scrapped my plans for a one piece driveshaft and just had the front shaft shortened. Reset my pinion angles and no more vibration, she runs smooth now. Looking forward to freeway driving now.
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[padresag]

did you use the emergency crossmember for the rear trans mount?
ron

[nachodog2]

I'm gonna make a solid trans mount right on it, it crosses right underneath the mount on the tranny. I'm gonna reroute the e brake cables. Shouldn't be too difficult.
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[padresag]

Originally Posted by nachodog2

I'm gonna make a solid trans mount right on it, it crosses right underneath the mount on the tranny. I'm gonna reroute the e brake cables. Shouldn't be too difficult.
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not the greatest thing to make a rear trans mount out of
ron

[nachodog2]

Originally Posted by padresag

not the greatest thing to make a rear trans mount out of
ron

Would ya recommend same location only with boxed tubing?
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[padresag]

those are on the light side( the emergency brake one). you could either make one or get one from a later truck. there were also the p/glide crossmembers if you can locate one from the 63-66 trucks
http://www.persh.org/pickup/700R4.htm show a picture of a tater crossmember
ron

[nachodog2]

I think I'll build one. It's faster than trying to get time to go to the junkyard.
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[jocko]

nachodog - if you have the current bell hsg mounts, why do you desire to have an aft trans mount? (i.e. and why not just leave the crossmember that supports the ebrake stuff intact in the process?)

My understanding is that you only need 2 mount points (i.e. the engine mounts, of course, and EITHER the bell hsg mounts or a rear trans crossmember).

Here's a quote from an online article on T5 swaps:

"You'll notice that this truck doesn't have a transmission cross member. They never came with them. In this case it's actually alright, because the engine is solidly mounted with 2 mounts in the front and 2 that bolt into the bell housing. Lots of drag cars with motor plates don't use a transmission mount because the chassis flex will crack the case. I figure if it's ok for a car with 1200hp, it's ok for our truck with 250hp".

Here's the whole link if you are interested: http://hamiltonintakes.com/products/...57-chevy-truck

Although I WISH I didn't have the bell housing mounting points (because they really get in the way installing the bell hsg, clutch/pp, etc) I do still have it so am gonna use it and not run a tail housing mount in conjunction with it. I think it would be redundant, might gack up my ebrake stuff (but not sure this is true on my 66... I think it is not the case) and it also could put additional stress on the trans case and i/p shaft that would not be there without it.

My 2 cents, only food for thought, not sure what the actual textbook answer is. But the article excerpt does make some good points. If you've already swapped over to a one-piece later bell or something like that that doesn't have mounts to the frame, then pls disregard all this - you need the rear crossmember of course.


Padre, thanks for your post, glad to hear you see so much improvement, I'm expecting the same - what is the first gear ratio in your T5 and what is your rear end ratio? (so i can compare to mine). I'm guessing I will have similar results - very quick trip thru 1st, then right into 2nd halfway across an intersection. Thanks again.

[nachodog2]

Thanx for the input Jocko, guess I'm being a little cautious about it. I do have the bell housing mounts and they are a bit of a pain. You make some valid points, especially with the added unnecessary stress. Guess I'm good to go then. Later tonight I'll post up some pics of my modified t5 shifter, not a short throw but It'll do for now. I'm shifting the same as you but isn't it a world of difference anyway....especially when you really get going. First two passengers almost needed new underwear
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[jocko]

Originally Posted by nachodog2

Thanx for the input Jocko, guess I'm being a little cautious about it. I do have the bell housing mounts and they are a bit of a pain. You make some valid points, especially with the added unnecessary stress. Guess I'm good to go then. Later tonight I'll post up some pics of my modified t5 shifter, not a short throw but It'll do for now. I'm shifting the same as you but isn't it a world of difference anyway....especially when you really get going. First two passengers almost needed new underwear
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That's awesome! Lookin fwd to the pics. I am going with a Lokar 16" stick that I ordered from speedway - it bolts up to an aftermarket T5 shifter (T5 shifter mech available on ebay ONLY... but that's a different thread...)

Here's the shifter, stick, and da ball:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Hurst...item53e844a426 (this is a very nice shifter and is straight up and down, unlike aftermarket Camaro shifters that lean away from the driver)
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Lokar-...ever,7428.html (note this is the STICK ONLY)
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Lokar-...nobs,7429.html (shifter knob ball but other colors are available)

[padresag]

Originally Posted by jocko

nachodog - if you have the current bell hsg mounts, why do you desire to have an aft trans mount? (i.e. and why not just leave the crossmember that supports the ebrake stuff intact in the process?)

My understanding is that you only need 2 mount points (i.e. the engine mounts, of course, and EITHER the bell hsg mounts or a rear trans crossmember).

Here's a quote from an online article on T5 swaps:

"You'll notice that this truck doesn't have a transmission cross member. They never came with them. In this case it's actually alright, because the engine is solidly mounted with 2 mounts in the front and 2 that bolt into the bell housing. Lots of drag cars with motor plates don't use a transmission mount because the chassis flex will crack the case. I figure if it's ok for a car with 1200hp, it's ok for our truck with 250hp".

Here's the whole link if you are interested: http://hamiltonintakes.com/products/...57-chevy-truck

Although I WISH I didn't have the bell housing mounting points (because they really get in the way installing the bell hsg, clutch/pp, etc) I do still have it so am gonna use it and not run a tail housing mount in conjunction with it. I think it would be redundant, might gack up my ebrake stuff (but not sure this is true on my 66... I think it is not the case) and it also could put additional stress on the trans case and i/p shaft that would not be there without it.

My 2 cents, only food for thought, not sure what the actual textbook answer is. But the article excerpt does make some good points. If you've already swapped over to a one-piece later bell or something like that that doesn't have mounts to the frame, then pls disregard all this - you need the rear crossmember of course.


Padre, thanks for your post, glad to hear you see so much improvement, I'm expecting the same - what is the first gear ratio in your T5 and what is your rear end ratio? (so i can compare to mine). I'm guessing I will have similar results - very quick trip thru 1st, then right into 2nd halfway across an intersection. Thanks again.

I think that mine has the 3:74 1st and I have a 3:73 14 bolt and 33" tires. I may be a little low. seeing that these are not the strongest trans and if I need to pull some weight, I will have that leverage with 1st, mind you I always have the t/c behind it. it can always be changed as I only paid a couple hundred for it. I also have a 700r4 if I really don't like it
ron

[nachodog2]

shifter pics. i cut the stockshifter at the curve and ground down the side to compensate for the way the shifter pulls away from the driver and tapped the stem to accept an old mr. gasket shifter handle. cut the curve off the handle , drilled and tapped it added a stud and set the stock shifter ball on it.

[jocko]

Thanks Padre - I have the same gear combo, so that gives me a good isea what to expect.

Nacho - I like that stick - looks good and original. Something I may do in the future when I get this whole mess on the road, but didn't have any parts to start with so went with the Lokar piece to get it going. I like the original knob on there, looks great!