Ford Solenoid Mod Question

[72lb4x4]

Originally Posted by veinbar

As mentioned by jrcaprai, the issue is heat soak. In Austin we've had a summer filled with 100 + degree days, plus my new headers, and crispy old wiring. These elements added together leave me stranded a couple times a week. There are too many benefits from this conversion to ignore.

Define heat soak.

I'm trying to get you (not random other people) to describe the symptoms you're trying to make go away.

[72lb4x4]

Originally Posted by veinbar

I can see where this thread is going... It's been discussed many times. This is one I pulled off of a chevelle forum debating the same thing. Good points by both sides.
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/arch...p/t-56167.html

Benefits overlooked:
1. Only one BAT cable connected to the GM starter. (You'll appreciate this when you have to hold that 45lb lava rock in your hand)
2. If the ford solenoid goes out... Easy to access and change out.
3. Very easy to add accessories using the remote locaish (location shortened)

1. Its simple enough to remove the connections before unbolting the starter.
2. If the original solenoid goes out, its still right where it always was.
2A. If the ford solenoid goes out, then you need to replace the unneeded part.

The solenoid has 2 purposes:

To engage the starter drive
To switch the starter on

After adding the redundant solenoid, it still does these two things exactly as it did before.

[tucsonjwt]

Others discuss starter heat soak here:

http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/sh...hp?tid/166101/

I think a new big block Chevy vehicle would not have this problem - all new American made high quality parts and wiring. Old big blocks have many problems to overcome.

The problem is very simple and very common. When the vehicle is hot and shut off for a short period of time (15 minutes or so), the engine will not restart - just a click but no start. The solenoid and starter "soak up" heat radiating from the engine, and the engine is no longer being cooled when the engine is turned off. Wait another 20-30 minutes and the residual heat will dissipate enough to allow the solenoid to work.
When I ran my 73 big block with an isolator, I could run jumper cables from the auxiliary battery to the primary battery and that additional current would be enough to start the truck. I don't think GM would make a starter heat shield if they did not recognize this problem.

[tucsonjwt]

GM starter heat shield NOS:

http://www.alldeysparts.com/product_...3_cat_156.html

[1LowToy]

Just to be sure. You did not use your diagram with only a 10 gauge wire from the Ford solinoid to the batt post on your starter right? If so that wire will burn!!

[tucsonjwt]

If the remote solenoid does no good because it is still dependent on the original starter mounted solenoid, then why does the remote solenoid overcome the heat soak no start when hot condition?

[veinbar]

Originally Posted by 1LowToy

Just to be sure. You did not use your diagram with only a 10 gauge wire from the Ford solinoid to the batt post on your starter right? If so that wire will burn!!

ha ha. I used appropriate battery cables. After my prior mistake I deserve questions like this. LOL.

[veinbar]

Originally Posted by 72lb4x4

Define heat soak.

I'm trying to get you (not random other people) to describe the symptoms you're trying to make go away.

Ok, no problem. Facts first. I have an A/C Delco Starter and Solenoid purchased new in November 2010. I have added dual exhaust with longtube headers in March 2011. Temperatures in Austin, TX have been averaging 100 + degrees for the entire summer thus far, and I enjoy morning and 5pm traffic. All of these elements together have left me in difficulty a handful of times recently. For instance, if I stop for gas or a quick grocery visit, I will be stranded. Symptoms include...

• After driving, if I attempt to restart the starter clicks. that's all it does.
• Sometimes if I'm lucky it clicks and drags (turns slowly)
• in my impatience I have turned the key a couple of times, and 2-3 attempts will completely drain my battery and I will need a jump. The engine has to cool first before I can accept a jump.
• tested my starter, solenoid replaced under warranty 5/11 (problems would persist, new solenoid changed nothing leading me to believe that it is heat related), battery tested good, alternator tested good as well.

I will say that in the few days I have had the Remote Solenoid, I have had none of the starting issues as stated above. I have sat in traffic, run errands w/ frequent restarts, etc and it is working better than it ever has in the year and a half I've had it.

[veinbar]

Originally Posted by 72lb4x4

1. Its simple enough to remove the connections before unbolting the starter.
2. If the original solenoid goes out, its still right where it always was.
2A. If the ford solenoid goes out, then you need to replace the unneeded part.

The solenoid has 2 purposes:

To engage the starter drive
To switch the starter on

After adding the redundant solenoid, it still does these two things exactly as it did before.

1. "simple enough" means that you have become quite proficient at removing and replacing the starter. In my experience, and a few dozen starter removals, I still say it's a PITA. There's no way to removed the wires connected to the starter (at least on my application) unless you drop the starter first. My wires are short enough so that I can't set the starter on the ground. So, I'm stuck holding a 45lb starter with on hand, and removing the wires with the other. Changing a starter is a Simple Task if I had to rate it, but when you're actually doing it, it suck every time. It never goes as smoothly as I would want.
2. You're right in this. I was referring to an earlier post where someone said the ford solenoids go out all of the time. I should have referenence it.

Fortunately this conversion has (for the moment) cured my starting issues. The results are not a placebo effect, I am starting my car in the same conditions that consistantly gave me troubles before.

[mooseknuckles]

...anyone heard of a high torque mini starter?...40% less weight, 1/4 hp, low amp draw, 1.75 gear reduction....as long as the battery is in good condition , nothing stops this thing!

[veinbar]

Originally Posted by mooseknuckles

...anyone heard of a high torque mini starter?...40% less weight, 1/4 hp, low amp draw, 1.75 gear reduction....as long as the battery is in good condition , nothing stops this thing!

You are correct, sir. This is the best fix to starting trouble. I plan on buying one of these when money isn't such an issue. My friend is runnin a starter off of a late 90's blazer w/ 4.3 vortec. It starts every time, no drag, and is so small and light. some filing was necessary to make it fit correctly, but it has fixed his starting woes. The one thing I can't get used to is the sound it makes when it's cranking. It's too modern or new sounding to be in a truck. Ha ha.

I would love to have one of these starters.

[mooseknuckles]

haha...I love the sound of them!....makes it sound like theres somethin big and nasty under the hood...best $200 I've ever spent.

[Jonboy]

The permanent magnet starters became a lot more prevalent in the 90's. I know they were factory on the LT1 cars also.

[baclay9]

Originally Posted by mooseknuckles

haha...I love the sound of them!....makes it sound like theres somethin big and nasty under the hood...best $200 I've ever spent.

I just ordered the same one for my BB. Hope it works good. Glad to hear you like it.

[tucsonjwt]

I have a genuine GM high torque mini starter, plus the remote solenoid, plus dual start batteries, plus 160 amp alternator. I find I need all of these elements to stop/slow the effects of starter heat soak. Probably the high torque mini starter alone would have fixed the problem, but it was the last thing I tried in the sequence of events.
Two issues with the mini starter. It leaves a small uncovered hole where it attaches to the engine (footprint is not the same as the OEM big starter) and when it does not start on the first attempt (like when the truck has been sitting for two weeks and no gas in carb) it takes a while (few seconds) for the high torque starter to wind down before you attempt a second restart.

[tucsonjwt]

GM high torque mini starter professionally installed on my 454 /SM4645 granny 4 speed. Pics show the hole I was referring to above.

[veinbar]

I could be wrong TUSCONJWT but it looks like you're still running stock exhaust? I'm jealous of how much room you have around your starter. Very clean and easy access.

[tucsonjwt]

Stock exhaust - factory dual exhaust, but the big block takes up just about all the room in the engine bay.

[wyattglock]

What I did to remedy the problem of heat soak was several things. I installed a new Delco starter, rewired the starter circuit from the battery to the starter. Installed a remote solenoid just to make it easier to remove/install the starter due to the headers. Ran a new 2 gauge wire for the power feed to the starter since I have never liked 10 or 8 gauge for that kind of amp load. Finally, I wrapped a starter blanket around it. Probably overkill, but after a 1 hour trip that took three while waiting on the engine to cool off and get a jump I was over it.

[willett]

if you lift your truck it will be real easy to access your starter.

trust me i know!!

[Axle]

Since I'm the creator of the first diagram, (titled "Ford Solenoid MY Way") and the question has been raised here before, I figured I'll chime in now.

The Why: Alleviate heat soak issues. But not the heat soak everybody thinks of when talking about starters.

What heat soak then? Wiring heat soak.
Heat + small wire = big resistance = less voltage and current at its terminus. Toss in the fact that the hotter the GM solenoid gets, the more current it draws, and the need for full battery voltage to function. If you follow the original wiring path to the starter S terminal, on my '83 the factory wiring went from the starter, underneath the exhaust manifolds, up the front of the engine to the alternator, then along the valve cover to the firewall, across the back of the engine, then into the cab to go through its route to the neutral safety switch and finally at the ignition switch itself. Lots of small guage wire to get hot.

When hot, the gm solenoid requires more current to fully engage (so yes, we do have a bit of classic starter heat soak) , if things are working against you, it highlights the fact that the original wiring just isn't cutting it. Step in the Remote Solenoid.

Now, the essence of "My Way" (which is the cause for lots of distress for some people, I've even been emailed "My Way" is wrong. Well, thats why I titled it "My Way") is to provide full battery voltage to the GM solenoid S terminal, and move all the wiring away from around the engine. The reason this works (and the GM solenoid does not) is the remote solenoid is a low current device. Give it around 12volts and it activates, allowing a short 14" run of cable providing full battery voltage to the gm solenoid allowing it to activate during adverse conditions.

Another benefit to 'my way' is that the remote solenoid is only carrying low current in the grand scheme of things by only having to supply the S terminal, hence, long life. No contact pitting, or welded contacts due to high current carrying needs of turning a starter over. I've heard of far less GM solenoids sticking on than I have of ford solenoids doing so. And since its not a Ford starter that needs to be wired as such, Keeping a direct BAT run to the GM starter makes sense.

I've only had to do this to my truck. My Nova (with headers) has never failed me, but then, the Nova S wire has a relatively short run across the back of the engine--it does not have 5+ feet of additional wire wrapped around the engine fighting the effects of heat and resistance.

Thats my long winded reason for doing the remote solenoid as per the OP's first image, and not the classic way of wiring a ford solenoid.

Alex.

[1LowToy]

The stupid thing is that I used to put these on 6V VWs back in the early 70s While it worked great on the VWs I failed to put two and two together and put one on my Nova SS back then. So everyone at the A&W drive-in was laughing while I was throwing sparks putting that scew driver in between the headers.

Older wiser.

I put one on my friends International Scout. Results= He didn't have to turn the key as hard LOL. (Only a Cop would understand)

[72lb4x4]

This is backwards: "...hotter the GM solenoid gets, the more current it draws..."

As copper gets hotter, its resistance increases, and as resistance increases, current decreases. The relationship between resistance and current is part of Ohm's Law.

Just another example of the misinformation surrounding (vehicle) electrical systems, poorly defined terms/phrases such as "heat soak," and "voltage drop" that cause people to to graft unneeded parts onto their vehicles.

[tucsonjwt]

This is backwards: "...hotter the GM solenoid gets, the more current it draws..."

I am in the group of auto electrical unschooled, but if a solenoid has more resistance due to heat, does it not require more "current" to function? The example I use is when I jumped my auxiliary battery to my primary battery and started my "heat soaked" (pardon the term) 73 big block.

You still have not answered the question: "If the remote solenoid is of no use because it still uses the original starter mounted solenoid, then why does it cure the "heat soak" problem?" Just trying to understand auto electrical issues - trying to gain knowledge about old squares is why I visit here.

[1LowToy]

Exactly. I couldn't have expained it better. Thank you

"As copper gets hotter, its resistance increases, and as resistance increases, current decreases. The relationship between resistance and current is part of Ohm's Law".

That's why the Ford solinoid added to the circut to increase current to make the Bendix solinoid work.

Thank goodness someone came up with solinoids (AKA relays. Simple explaination: Relay direct power without current loss).

I'm way too old to be making fireworks with my screw driver at the A&W Drive-in

Another problem solved by the 67-72 Chevy Learning Center.

Now for a simple wiring solution.

The Bendix solinoid is the part that is suffering from Ohms law current drop. Whether it be from older Chevy wiring which was built at minimum standards or current break down at the numerous connections in the circut. So let's add a small solinoid (or a relay) so we won't have the Ohms Law current drop at the S wire on the Bendix.

Let's see did I say this once before (See post 6)? But let's follow the current this time.

10 gauge wire from battery or battery terminal at the starter (no need for both battery and starter hot wire, we just want fresh battery current), to the Ford solinoid.
(Now we have lots of current at the ford Stater relay ready to relay this fresh current.)


10 gauge wire from the other large post of the Ford solinoid to the S terminal on the starter.
(This is where we want Fresh un-inhibited current to make the Bendix solinoid work. We made it work before with a screw driver at the A&W Drive-in, that was fresh current).

Wire from ignition switch (formerly the wire going to the S terminal on the Bendix solinoid on the starter) to the S terminal on the Ford Starter.
(Now we have the limited capabilities of the Chevy ignition switch and wiring harnes moving a small solinoid (Ford starter relay) to relay the fresh battery power through the relay to the S terminal of the bexdix solinoid of the chevy starter.

To put it real simple it took my scew driver's place at the A&W Drive-in