An expensive lesson learned

[Ackattack]

would this engine be covered under warranty? Does GM specify the use of additives on their non-roller crate engines?

[OhOneWS6]

Originally Posted by RenoKeene

Wow! I read the entire thread you linked to. Seems the most economically sensible thing to run in my basically stock flat tappet 402 is any decent non-synthetic with a high ZDDP additive as simple as STP.
You stated earlier you use Mobil 1 with an additive. Which additive do you use?
Mine is the original motor that came in my truck, not high RPM build.
Thanks.

BTW, everyone with a flat tappet build should read that thread!

You better read the label on those products. That thread was started in 2007. A lot has changed since then. I realize there are more recent posts in that thread but as I said earlier this is changing on an almost daily basis. There are plenty of products out there that had ZDDP back in 2007 that do not now.

Here is another thread with an email response from STP back in 2007.
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/anyt...red-label.html

I could be wrong (6 lug wheels LOL) but I believe at this time there in no ZDDP in STP oil treatment. There is no mention of it on their site. If it was in there you can bet they would be advertising it.

http://www.stp.com/products/oil-addi...oil-treatment/

This is a very heavily debated subject. Not only "Is ZDDP in the oil? but "How much is enough?" Everyone should do the research make their own decision on what to use. Be sure to check bottles and dates on the info because it does change. You may find some product on the shelf that has ZDDP right now only to find the next time you buy it the product no longer does.

I can only speak for my experience. I have a mild flat tappet 425 HP Pontiac 400 in my jet boat. I broke it in on VR-1 and still run VR-1. It gets rung out pretty hard through the summer and after 3 seasons on the lake I have had no cam/lifter issues.

[Mike Bradbury]

Originally Posted by C-10 simplex

1) Which gm crate engine is this?

a) Are you positive that the oil caused the problem?; i have a crate engine horror story as well which i can refer if/when i find the link. i'm still not totally sure what caused the rod to bend, but it started with a bent pushrod as well. You may already be familiar with my story but i will try to find the link anyways.


2) NOTE: i use redline synthetic because this is one of the few oils i can find that has enough zddp in it because all my cars have flat lifters.

It is a '92 4 bolt main. The block was made in Mexico, Not sure if GM had farmed out all of it's manufacturing to mexico by then or if there are some of that vintage made in America. But the part that failed was the cam.

All I know is that the pan was spick-N-span just 1000 before when I powder coated it. So all the sludge and metal shavings occured after the Mobil One. There was no evidence of wear when I powder coated the pan.

*

[project 67 sub]

damn dude that sucks , best of luck with this problem

[watahyahknow]

i heared about Shell Rotella engineoil thats used in farm equipment that still has the propperties of the old oils

[Mike Bradbury]

Originally Posted by project 67 sub

damn dude that sucks , best of luck with this problem

I don't know if you remember what it sounded like at the show but in addition to the bent rod there were 4 out of 16 lobes on the cam that were almost round with no lobe anymore. I am surprised it ran at all.

[eightbanger]

Originally Posted by Mike Bradbury

I don't know if you remember what it sounded like at the show but in addition to the bent rod there were 4 out of 16 lobes on the cam that were almost round with no lobe anymore. I am surprised it ran at all.

What did the lifters look like that had ran on those worn lobes Mike?

[RenoKeene]

The link Zepp posted explains the nomenclature of the chemistry involved in all this, that's why I recommend reading the whole thing. It gives us a basis to make a smart choice depending on the application.
My question is this: If I have a basic flat tappet big block and don't want to spend a fortune on oil, what is the best additive readily available? I'm not going to be thrashing mine...much,
and will be changing oil every 1000 or so.
I know lots of guys reading this live in small towns and don't have access to exotics so what's on the shelf for them...and me.
If I figure it out before someone else posts it I'll post it.The hunt begins tomorrow.
Thanks
Posted via Mobile Device

[Jon Scully]

Just a quick (possible stupid) question-- do not want to highkack.....

I have a stock 1971 blazer 350 sbc.....is this a flat tappett -- needing the xtra zinc...or a roller that I am ok with normal motor oil?

thanks
jon

[eightbanger]

Originally Posted by Jon Scully

Just a quick (possible stupid) question-- do not want to highkack.....

I have a stock 1971 blazer 350 sbc.....is this a flat tappett -- needing the xtra zinc...or a roller that I am ok with normal motor oil?

thanks
jon

It would be flat tappet if your sure it's stock...otherwise it could have been updated to roller.

There is a wealth of info on this whole subject on the web, seems everyone is taking about it and most are recomending Valvoline VR1 with 75% more zinc/ZDDP.

[project 67 sub]

Originally Posted by Mike Bradbury

I don't know if you remember what it sounded like at the show but in addition to the bent rod there were 4 out of 16 lobes on the cam that were almost round with no lobe anymore. I am surprised it ran at all.

...... yah that aint good, and im surprised it ran as well after finding that out, also, yah i vaguely remember how it sounded, and it wasn't very good now we know why

[markwc99]

What is you'll opion of Royal Purple?

[pumpkin]

Originally Posted by watahyahknow

i heared about Shell Rotella engineoil thats used in farm equipment that still has the propperties of the old oils

Not any more, my son lost a sb 400 on shell rotella.

[pumpkin]

The Joe Gibbs oil site has some realy good info. Cant find the link any more. It basicaly says that if the oil is for sale for street use it is no good for flat tappet cams. If you have an old, stock engine you will probably be ok with just using an additive. As soon as you get into a cam profile that will put you over 260 hp your doomed without using an offroad use only oil. The reason that all the good stuff was removed from the oil is because it shortens the life of the catalitic converters. We went through engine troubles when they removed the lead from gas. The manufacturers new this was comming, as thats one of the reasons they start rollerizeing there engines in the early 90's , and by late 90's they are pretty much all roller cam/roller rockers. For us chevy guys I have found a cheep fix is a used vortec. Just about done converting my daughters 72 Blazer to a vortec with aluminum heads and a bit bigger Roller cam. Shes taking her sweet time getting it done,,,,,, I can't wait. I'm thinking it should be around 350 to 400 hp. for $3000, and no more $100 oil changes.

[oldblue1968chevy]

Ticker had an FAQ on oils..

Ive been using VR1 because it says 'for flat tappet camshafts' on the back.

[domeier]

This is a link to an excellent paper on motor oils in general written by a dude who would appear to thoroughly enjoy his subject:

http://www.motor-oil-engineers.com/M...eers%20PDF.pdf

If you don't want to read all 29,000 pages, just do a document search for "zinc." While it doesn't specifically address this particular issue, it explains very well what the zinc does, and why we need it. I emailed the author this morning with a link to this thread, and asked if he'd be kind enough to give us a recommendation for a proper oil. If you read through the document, you'll see he's not in favor of additives of any kind, and he lays out his reasons with solid justifications.

I'll let you know if he replies to my email.

[oldblue1968chevy]

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=381780

Tickers Oil Thread

[treveiger]

I run a full synthetic from ams oil, its a 10w40 with zinc in it, I'd recommend using that(its designed for older motors with flat tappet cams) sucks to hear it happened to you
Posted via Mobile Device

[RenoKeene]

Just found this additive at CarQuest
Lucas Engine Break-in Oil Additive, TB ZINC-PLUS
"Addition of 16oz to 4.5 quarts motor oil will achieve approximately 5,000 ppm of Zinc"
$13.99
My fresh 70 402 has regular Valvoline 20W-50 in it right now and this Lucas should do until I get it broken in, then.....

Thanks again Mike for your thread, and good luck.
Brad

[watahyahknow]

Law of Mechanical Repair - After your hands become coated with grease, your nose will begin to itch and you'll have to pee.

makes me think about a question i once saw on a rockcrawler forum ...... he wanted to know how to get bedliner of his little tool )

[Dano69c10]

Originally Posted by pumpkin

I've been saying this for years now, but no one realy listens. Additives don't work very well, as the modern oils drasticaly reduce there effectiveness. There are two ways around this problem that I have found. Use a racing/off road use ony oil such as Joe Gibbs racing oil...,

Hey pumpkin,
Which Joe Gibbs oil would you recommend should be used on a stock 350 that is only street driven? I went the the website and there seemed to be more than 10 oils on there...
Thanx Dano

[OJ1988]

Originally Posted by Dano69c10

Hey pumpkin,
Which Joe Gibbs oil would you recommend should be used on a stock 350 that is only street driven? I went the the website and there seemed to be more than 10 oils on there...
Thanx Dano

Why don't you ask them what oil they recommend?
Posted via Mobile Device

[doodah man]

Not exactly the answer to the question, but this is the response I got from Joe Gibbs:

Thanks for the email. Since you've got a higher lift cam in the engine, I would recommend our HR series of Hot Rod oils. These oils have the higher level of ZDP needed to protect higher lift cams.

You can run any of the HR series of oils. We offer them in conventional and synthetic. The synthetic is better for engines that see a lot of hard driving. If you do just normal driving, then the conventional is all you need.

Also, our oils do not need any addtional additives. Just pour them in and drive on.

You have the choice of 10W-30 or 15W-50. Typically a 10W-30 is perfect for a normal street driver.

[DeputyDan]

Originally Posted by 406 Q-ship

I believe that Mobil has a synthetic that still carries the zinc of the older spec oils. I will have to look and try to find where I read that to post here. Synthetic isn't the problem it is the lack of the zinc, all oils currently sold out of the regular retail stores lack the zinc needed for scrubber cams. I use either Diesel (rotello) oil or add a can of STP (still has the zinc), one day I will make the switch to a roller cam engine but for now it is additive.

Try Royal Purple it's got the whole 9 yerds and you can get it at any autoparts store.

[domeier]

Dave Mann from AMSOl wrote me back with the following:

Hi Paul, Zinc and Zincdithiophosphate (ZDDP) are two totally different chemicals, of many, many chemicals, used in motor oils. Zinc has not been reduced but ZDDP has been reduced as per Federal EPA and automotive manufacturers requirements which have to do with catalytic converters being able to still work properly after 10 years/150,000 miles and still meet the Federal EPA requirements for emissions. ZDDP has been determined to have a negative effect on catalytic converters meeting these EPA requirements. Therefore ZDDP, but not Zinc, has been reduced significantly and in some motor oils replaced with other chemicals equivalent or superior to the performance of ZDDP. I recommend taking a look at a particular motor oils ASTM performance data which is the true measure of how the oil performs
irrespective of what the levels of Zinc and or ZDDP and other chemicals are
(which are proprietary). In the case of AMSOL the test data shows that
AMSOIL outperforms other motor oils in many, and in some motor oils all of
the critical test parameters as well as actual field tests and oil analysis
testing. For customers that desire an oil for extra wear protection
utilizing a high zinc formula use the AMSOIL Z-Rod Synthetic 10W-30,
or 20W-50.These two products are excellent for flat tappets,
high performance, heavy duty and high mileage applications.

See attached data sheet on Z Rod oil.