Starting a new build...

[gearhead2069]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

It looks like you have a goot d plan going. Running the original (style) frame solves a lot of issues that guys run into when doing frame swaps or subframe swaps.

The last time I weighed my 48 with the 250 six in it i think it was right at 3200 lbs and you are right on with the C-4 Corvettes weighing in at the same weight http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-g...-and-info.html Those that have this combination swear by it for both ride and handling.

You're saying that those who use the combination of the c4 suspension with these trucks swear by them? I wish I could find more documentation of people who have used these components with their truck and actually have had a chance to test them out. It seems as though with everything I have read, no one has actually gotten to the stage of driving the truck. I'd really like to find a write up with some experience behind the wheel.

[not2oldchevy]

Originally Posted by gearhead2069

You're saying that those who use the combination of the c4 suspension with these trucks swear by them? I wish I could find more documentation of people who have used these components with their truck and actually have had a chance to test them out. It seems as though with everything I have read, no one has actually gotten to the stage of driving the truck. I'd really like to find a write up with some experience behind the wheel.

I have been driving my 53/ls/c4 for 2 years. C4 front only handles and rides good, front bumper 5 1/2 ".

[gearhead2069]

Originally Posted by not2oldchevy

I have been driving my 53/ls/c4 for 2 years. C4 front only handles and rides good, front bumper 5 1/2 ".

Thank you for the response not2oldchevy.

What size LS are you using?

[OldRuffiaN]

[QUOTE=gearhead2069;6690639]Well... I guess you have convinced me! I think I'm going to go with both front and rear from Flat Out. I feel that I have skills comparable to that of Stockish so I think I'll purchase rather than build my own.

The only thing I started worrying about was the diff's ability to hold. My current plan is to run with a 376/480 LS crate from GM. Obviously the c4 did not come with that many horses so I began to worry. Well, I started looking into it some more and apparently Dodge has been using the 44 in their Vipers for quite some time now. Starting in 2003 the Viper came from the manufacture with over 500 horses and they still used the same diff. Obviously, that was probably at the flywheel and not the wheels but then again, the engine I'd like to go with puts 480 to the flywheel so in theory I should be good...

Please feel free to chime in and correct any errors in my logic.



The only caveat I would mention is try to get the dana 44 version if you can.Most agree that it is good to about 500 hp,and guys have been swapping the jaguar version for decades with good results,however,all auto C4s from 84-96 had the dana 36 which is a bit weaker compared to the 44.As long as you`re running an auto and street tires it`ll probably live though.Weakest link is the spider gears failing and then making a window in the case but an aftermarket posi should fix that.More info here:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-t...er-limits.html

All 6 speed and T10 C4s from 85 on had the Dana 44 and they are a little pricier.Both versions share the same hubs,halfshafts,ect,only external difference being the case and batwing so you could always upgrade later..

[not2oldchevy]

Originally Posted by gearhead2069

Thank you for the response not2oldchevy.

What size LS are you using?

5.3/4l60

[gearhead2069]

A little update...

So after a good bit of searching, I was able to locate some suspension components.





What I ended up with is a Dana 44 off of an 87 Vette. Finding the 44 over the 36 was more of a venture than I had planned. These guys are getting expensive! Oh well, I am still ahead on what was originally planned as far as funds go so I'm doing pretty good.

Got my shipment in from Flat Out. Don seems like a super nice guy. The ordering process went really well. I'm impressed with how easy he was to talk to. The only problem was the carrier... I mean, I realize that all the parts are steel but dang... They could have been a LITTLE easier with the boxes. A few of the holes were big enough for me to worry about some things falling out.





Parts look great! I'm getting so pumped! Tired of the parts collecting stage but hopefully once I get over the getting started hump, maybe things will start moving forward with a bit of a pace.





After a pretty good order from LMC and BROTHERS, I'm ready to get this ball rolling!



The only thing I am waiting on is to see if the tire shop I use is going to be able to hook me up with a set of throw away tires in the right profile to put on some wheels I had laying around. I'm not sure what width I am going to go with but I have been studying the builds that you fine people have posted and I LOVE the profile that Stockish went with on his build. So, ???/35-18 is what I want to run with. The wheels I have are 15s, but if I go with a tire that is ???/65-15 then I'll have an identical overall diameter. That way I can find my wheel center, adjust for ride height and have a roller without having to worry about messing up a new set of wheels and have tires go bad during the build.

If those of you who have gone similar routes have any tips or pointers, please by all means let me know of them. This is my first serious build and I am in no place to turn down any sound advice!

[FarmerSid]

Right on Gearhead! You certainly have been collecting some parts. One thing to look into is make sure those 15" rims will clear the brake calipers before getting tires mounted.

[gearhead2069]

Originally Posted by FarmerSid

Right on Gearhead! You certainly have been collecting some parts. One thing to look into is make sure those 15" rims will clear the brake calipers before getting tires mounted.

Yep, when I had the epiphany that I still had those wheels, I checked the bolt pattern and fit to ensure I'd have no issues. I got all giddy as they just barely slipped over the calipers. I guess there was a reason I was never able sell those crappy things! God is good!

[solidaxel]

I am looking for some hard parts from a Corvette front and rear, where did you find your used parts?

[gearhead2069]

Originally Posted by solidaxel

I am looking for some hard parts from a Corvette front and rear, where did you find your used parts?

Unfortunately I had to use eBay. I'd recomend you either find a wrecked one that someone is wanting to sell for cheap or see if you can find one at a yard somewhere. Unfortunately there was nothing to be found in my area and I didn't feel like waiting on a chance future discovery.

[58CameoAZ]

Originally Posted by solidaxel

I am looking for some hard parts from a Corvette front and rear, where did you find your used parts?

What exactly are you looking for?

[gearhead2069]

Well, I called the owner of the tire shop I use today and explained my situation to him. He comes back with "What size wheel is it? It's not a 15 is it? Well, it just so happens that a guy just came in with an s10 and the tires he took off of his truck are the exact size that you need in 205/65-15." Went down there and had them put them on the old wheels. Now just waiting for some welding consumables to come in and time to get this project moving. Like I said before... God is good and he treats me better than I deserve!

Here is a visual image of just how close the overall profile is going to be. I'll also post a link to the site I used. It may come in handy to those of you in the same situation.

http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/tirecalc.php

[gearhead2069]

So as I am finishing up getting just a few small parts here and there for getting this thing started, in the interest of keeping the project going I need to start thinking about engine and transmission.

I plan to use the truck as a daily upon completion. My plan is to shoot for a reasonable MPG (because let's be honest... Gas is never going to go down) while having something to play with when I need it. Chevrolet is getting some pretty impressive figures when it comes to their Camaro and Corvette. The Camaro is now pushing around 430hp out of their LS3 (which can be purchased as a crate) and is rated around 16/24mpg. The curb weight of the Camaro comes in around 3860. Apparently the curb weight of the truck was 3175 back in the day. I looked up the weight of the 219 I6 that came with the truck and it weighted in a little over 600 whereas the LS3 comes in a little over 400. Along with the different suspension components I can only imagine the weight is going to remain around the same if not drop just a bit. I realize that aerodynamics are going to come into play here in favor of the Camaro but surely I can get some pretty reasonable figures here. In favor of maximizing my MPG I'd like to go with a 6 speed. I am fighting the idea of going with a manual for two reasons. One- as I want to keep a bench seat in the truck, I'm curious as to how long the throws will be (every stick I have ever driven has been in a car) and I'm afraid longer throws will take all the fun out of it being a daily. Two- as I plan on searching around for some internals to make the diff a little stronger, I still fear a manual being rougher than an auto on the diff. I don't know, feel free to chime in or correct my logic.

So as far as 6 speed autos go, I guess I could go with a 4L80e that was been modified into a 6 speed but I have been seeing a few reviews where this results in a less than perfect tranny that doesn't really have the greatest longevity. This leaves me with a 6L80/90 though I am leaning more towards the 90 as I believe it is probably closer to a true 6 speed tranny than the 80 when reviewing the gearing. I'm thinking the 90 may give me better results.

What do you all think?

[gag1025]

I opted out of a manual transmission because I at my age I am tired of changing gears.

[solidaxel]

Originally Posted by 58CameoAZ

What exactly are you looking for?

88 to 96 Dana 44, complete front and rear suspension a 3:0 to 3:25 gear ratio would be a plus!

[solidaxel]

Originally Posted by gearhead2069

So as I am finishing up getting just a few small parts here and there for getting this thing started, in the interest of keeping the project going I need to start thinking about engine and transmission.

I plan to use the truck as a daily upon completion. My plan is to shoot for a reasonable MPG (because let's be honest... Gas is never going to go down) while having something to play with when I need it. Chevrolet is getting some pretty impressive figures when it comes to their Camaro and Corvette. The Camaro is now pushing around 430hp out of their LS3 (which can be purchased as a crate) and is rated around 16/24mpg. The curb weight of the Camaro comes in around 3860. Apparently the curb weight of the truck was 3175 back in the day. I looked up the weight of the 219 I6 that came with the truck and it weighted in a little over 600 whereas the LS3 comes in a little over 400. Along with the different suspension components I can only imagine the weight is going to remain around the same if not drop just a bit. I realize that aerodynamics are going to come into play here in favor of the Camaro but surely I can get some pretty reasonable figures here. In favor of maximizing my MPG I'd like to go with a 6 speed. I am fighting the idea of going with a manual for two reasons. One- as I want to keep a bench seat in the truck, I'm curious as to how long the throws will be (every stick I have ever driven has been in a car) and I'm afraid longer throws will take all the fun out of it being a daily. Two- as I plan on searching around for some internals to make the diff a little stronger, I still fear a manual being rougher than an auto on the diff. I don't know, feel free to chime in or correct my logic.

So as far as 6 speed autos go, I guess I could go with a 4L80e that was been modified into a 6 speed but I have been seeing a few reviews where this results in a less than perfect tranny that doesn't really have the greatest longevity. This leaves me with a 6L80/90 though I am leaning more towards the 90 as I believe it is probably closer to a true 6 speed tranny than the 80 when reviewing the gearing. I'm thinking the 90 may give me better results.

What do you all think?

Is there that much advantage to using anything other than a GOOD built 4l65E, or are you just looking for the "best" combo. for your project, which I might add you have covered all the steps in the planning stages.

The unlimited budget you started with will only produce a excellent product that I believe will last the rest of your "life"!!

I liked that comment about age and shifting, and left knee !

[gearhead2069]

Originally Posted by solidaxel

Is there that much advantage to using anything other than a GOOD built 4l65E, or are you just looking for the "best" combo. for your project, which I might add you have covered all the steps in the planning stages.

The unlimited budget you started with will only produce a excellent product that I believe will last the rest of your "life"!!

I liked that comment about age and shifting, and left knee !

Being that this is my first big build, I can only go off of the experience and mistakes of others and attempt to avoid them. If someone has made a mistake before I have had the chance to step in the same hole, why follow in after them.

When I am making the decisions as to what parts I need for this build, I'm asking myself how I want the final product to end up. The next question is what parts do I need to get me to that image. I am looking to build a reliable daily driver that I can actually enjoy driving so therefore I don't want to cut corners with parts just to get the thing on the road then to experience the heart break of having to fix things every 10k miles just because I wanted to go cheap rather than quality. I have done my research in what I think will get me to what I'm looking for and I have analyzed the cost associated with the things being under the worst case scenario so I'm not trying to sugar coat this build and end up with the thing sitting in my garage because I am "saving for parts" as I go. I don't have an unlimited budget but as I come here seeking additional knowledge, I am finding that many of you can give me really sound advice that will give me something nearly identical to the product I have in my head while being able to save some change in the long run without sacrificing the performance I was originally looking for. Example: FarmerSid and his recommendation to go with the Corvette suspension rather than Art Morrison parts.

So, I have a plan and I know my direction. I'm not just running around blind folded swinging a bat and hoping to strike something that was out of reach to begin with, it's just that I feel it intelligent to question myself and my decisions here openly on this site in hopes of having any faulty logic corrected by one who has more experience than myself. As I am finding this approach is actually saving me cash, I can only be encouraged with this build rather than it sinking in the mud when I look back at what I have spent in the process of getting this thing to completion because after all I have already accepted my worst case scenario.

But to answer your question: Yes, I am looking for the best combination in drivetrain that will give me the the end result that I am looking for. In my mind, a 6 speed transmission will give me better MPG in comparison to a 4 speed because my RPM doesn't have to have such a large range between shift points. Many have been having better results with the 6L90e being able to handle a good bit of power without a ton of modification when I compare this to a modified 4L80e as evidence by TCI's six speed having spotty results. Like I said, only seeking additional knowledge as I go along.

Thank you for your response.

[ChuckDriver]

Nice pile of parts! Should make for an excellent build!

[gearhead2069]

Originally Posted by ChuckDriver

Nice pile of parts! Should make for an excellent build!

Thank you ChuckDriver. I certainly hope so!

[OldRuffiaN]

Originally Posted by solidaxel

88 to 96 Dana 44, complete front and rear suspension a 3:0 to 3:25 gear ratio would be a plus!

Check in here once a week or so.

http://www.autobidmaster.com/carfind...alue=1983-1996

I have seen flood and engine fire c4 vettes go for less than a grand on more than a few occasions.If guys figure they can`t be fixed then they just don`t bid on em.Just looking at the interior photos will tell you if it`s a dana 44 car or not (standard trans).

[solidaxel]

Originally Posted by OldRuffiaN

Check in here once a week or so.

http://www.autobidmaster.com/carfind...alue=1983-1996

I have seen flood and engine fire c4 vettes go for less than a grand on more than a few occasions.If guys figure they can`t be fixed then they just don`t bid on em.Just looking at the interior photos will tell you if it`s a dana 44 car or not (standard trans).

Thank You !

[gearhead2069]

Update...

Progress is tough just because of limited time due to working some pretty long hours but hey, progress is progress I guess.

Had enough time to set up and play with the new welder a little bit. I didn't think it was too bad for a multiprocess welder on 3/16 steel running off of a 110 outlet. Looks as though I got pretty good penetration. Enough to make me confident anyway. The magnets work pretty well also.









It's amazing how just the little things that don't mean nearly anything as far as progress goes can be such a motivator! Just threw the cab on the frame and bolted up a fender just so play with the ride height a bit. Didn't have much of a change to throw the wheel under it to find my centers but hopefully I'll catch a bit of a break and get some work done sometime soon.





I definitely need to drop it down a bit more. I'll have to pound on the running boards I got with the truck a little bit as they are pretty bent around the edges.

[58CameoAZ]

Looking Good, Those Magnets are SWEET!!! i had seen some at my local welding shop,
I gotta get me a Pair!
Allen

[gearhead2069]

Well, I finally got a small break in my work schedule so I was able to get a little bit of work done. Hopefully through my experience, you all may be able improve or even offer some advice.

Marked my wheel centers.





I decided to go ahead and get this portion of the frame cleaned up on the inside just because I'd not be able to reach it after the box in plates are installed.

Primer to the inside of the plates



Cleaned up inside the rails and primer.







Cut off a little excess metal so that the plates would fit in correctly.





Clamped the plates to the side of the rails (grind them down to give yourself a small "L" shaped lip for welding.)



Stitch welded them in so I could have a little added strength for when I have to start cutting on the rails.



I went from my wheel centers, measured ahead a little bit to take account for the corvette suspension geometry making the spindle set back from the centerline of the crossmember. From this new measurement, I marked forward and backward 2 inches (to clear the 4 inch crossmember). I used my Dremel tool to score the metal just so it would be a little more visible while I was using the grinder... Pencil doesn't show up the best.



Cut a section for the cross member on each side. Make sure that your frame is sitting level prior to marking your cuts so that your crossmember will set in level as well.





Then (as I followed the instructions sent with the kit) I cut an 8 inch section on one side which was supposed to help in getting the crossmember in when you place it in at an angle...





The problem... This was never going to work and I'll describe this in a second. I'm not sure if FlatOut has changed their design and failed to update their instructions for install but I feel that I would have been better off if FlatOut would have only given me the measurements and dimensions of suspension geometry then just told me to figure it out on my own. As I was following the instructions, I was under the impression that it was me not being able to find the perfect angle of position for the crossmember to just fit in. Well, once I finally just gave up and attempted to get the member in logically I realized that it never would have fit as described to begin with. The next issue is that I was attempting to be conservative with my cuts to the frame in fear of causing and kind of warp in an otherwise perfect frame. So, I ended up making multiple small cuts just to later find that I would have to make an additional cut because there were multiple issues with the way that the crossmember fit in the rails... This install was a bear! I don't know if other installs have been less complicated due to changes in fabrication or maybe design but I was noticing that many of these installs were actually calling for the crossmember being mounted on the inside of the rails rather than on the outside. I can see the reason for this being changed because otherwise the frame would have had to have been notched to clear the articulation for the upper control arm, but man did it make the install more difficult.

Here were the issues I came into:

The instructions call for an additional 8 inch section removed from the top of one side of the frame rail to ease the install of the crossmember. This is all you are given for actually getting it placed into the frame rails. Once I finally got it in, I found that the distance between the bottom of the bracket for the upper control arm and weld line on the top of the connection of the horizontal and vertical portions of the crossmember were actually shorter than the vertical length of the outside of the frame rail. So, once the crossmember was in, the bottom of the upper control arm bracket was dipping below the top of the frame rail. I was not able to raise it at all because the top of the weld line between the vertical and horizontal portion of the crossmember was coming in contact with the bottom of the frame rail.









So as you can see, with the provided information that came with the kit, I was bound for issues.

My recommendation:

Make the initial 4 inch cuts for the insertion of the vertical portions of the crossmember. Then after you make those cuts, go back with the intention of welding these pieces back in, make a second cut that is large enough to clear the brackets for the upper control arms. Leave a small notch from the original cut inside of the second cut so that you can adequately place the crossmember back in its originally measured location. Once you get the crossmember in, weld the portions from the second cut back in.

Here is a drawing of what I have in mind.



Hopefully that makes a little sense.

Anyway, I think that may give you better results and a lot less heartache.

So anyway. Once I got a few portions of my frame welded back together, I leveled it up and tacked it in. Fortunately, as there was no way to adjust for the ride height I was desiring without making additional cuts, the way that it sat in the frame rails turned out perfect for the height I was looking for. About 6.5 inches at the front fender. God is good!







Pulled the control arms back off and got everything welded in on top. I still have to flip the frame and finish in the bottom, but it's solid for now. Went back and measured all my dimensions and the frame is still perfectly straight and level! God is good... Again!

So anyway. I hope this helps any of you looking to purchase a front kit from FlatOut and use it on a stock frame. Hopefully your life will be a little easier through my mistakes given that FlatOut doesn't change anything from my experience.

Now I just need to get the rear in and figure out a fix to mock up my coilovers and she'll be rollin!!!

[gearhead2069]

Don't worry, I was sure get good deep welds with extra care taken for penetration. I will be going back over everything to get the frame smoothed out again and clean up the weld beads. I'm going to do the same around the welds that hold the crossmember in as it will help the powder coating hold better when it comes that time.