Alignment Shop Fail

[Carmen Black]

Well, I built a string box with colored catfishing line and jack stands to do the toe. I measured it with a precision woodworking ruler that allows me to measure to the 1/64th of an inch.

Then I used the SPC performance Caster/Camber tool since the Quick Trick tool was on back order. It has bubble levels instead of digital but it worked ok.

I got as close as I could to Lattimer's specs above. I really think I nailed the alignment. The truck runs straight as an arrow and turns great. The only problem was how mad I got thinking how much money I have spent on alignments over the years. And the best part of it is, I understand aligning the truck enough that I can make a change in 10 minutes anytime I want.

[Lattimer]

Originally Posted by Carmen Black

Well, I built a string box with colored catfishing line and jack stands to do the toe. I measured it with a precision woodworking ruler that allows me to measure to the 1/64th of an inch.

Then I used the SPC performance Caster/Camber tool since the Quick Trick tool was on back order. It has bubble levels instead of digital but it worked ok.

I got as close as I could to Lattimer's specs above. I really think I nailed the alignment. The truck runs straight as an arrow and turns great. The only problem was how mad I got thinking how much money I have spent on alignments over the years. And the best part of it is, I understand aligning the truck enough that I can make a change in 10 minutes anytime I want.

Good stuff. It's nice to know it's done right!

[lowrollin70gmc]

Glad to hear it turned out good. I may need to invest in those tools to do my own. The local Fleet Farm will do them but continually mess up appointment times and I'm thinking it would be nice to do my own on my air ride-equipped truck.

Random story: When I had my 63 Chevy II aligned I watched from the waiting room (big window) and the guy kept starting it to turn the wheels. So I asked the counterman to let his guy know it has manual steering, no column lock, and to please stop starting it. The blank stare on his face explained everything so I had to walk in the shop and tell the tech myself. Once again I was speaking a foreign language until I had him turn the wheel without starting it and it felt the same.

[CastIron]

Originally Posted by lowrollin70gmc

Random story: When I had my 63 Chevy II aligned I watched from the waiting room (big window) and the guy kept starting it to turn the wheels. So I asked the counterman to let his guy know it has manual steering, no column lock, and to please stop starting it. The blank stare on his face explained everything so I had to walk in the shop and tell the tech myself. Once again I was speaking a foreign language until I had him turn the wheel without starting it and it felt the same.

On most cars you need to start the engine to properly set toe. It sounds like he knew this, just didn't realize it doesn't apply to manual steering cars. He was probably just doing what the alignment program was telling him to do.

[lowrollin70gmc]

I knew why he was doing it, but assumed letting him know it was manual steering would have made more sense. But I guess manual steering is rare now-a-days. I was nice about pointing it out and once it clicked for him he smiled and carried on with the job.

To his credit he did align the suspension to my brought in specs (suspension manufacturer has different specs than factory).

[TexasLS1]

Don't mind me, just tagging this thread for later reference, good info....

[davepl]

I had my '69 Pontiac 2+2 (same chassis as Impala SS) aligned a couple of years ago and when I picked it up they said they could get it close but not all the way because there were no more shims to remove.

Thing is, on that car, you don't use shims! The lower control arm is held in by a huge cam bolt that walks the lower arm inwards and outwards as it is rotated in its pocket.

You would imagine if you do alignments all day every day that you'd know this. But I'm finding that unless it's a speciality shop, anything old now you pretty much have to hold their hand through the process.

[Eddie H.]

I did alignments for many years with old school non computerized equipment where you actually had to have the knowledge of how to properly set up a front end. I had a steady supply of customers who brought their vehicles to me after the local chain stores either messed them up, or told them that they couldn't be aligned.

[franken]

Originally Posted by davepl

I had my '69 Pontiac 2+2 (same chassis as Impala SS) aligned a couple of years ago and when I picked it up they said they could get it close but not all the way because there were no more shims to remove.

Thing is, on that car, you don't use shims! The lower control arm is held in by a huge cam bolt that walks the lower arm inwards and outwards as it is rotated in its pocket.

You would imagine if you do alignments all day every day that you'd know this. But I'm finding that unless it's a speciality shop, anything old now you pretty much have to hold their hand through the process.

Yep, they don't tell the truth so we have to know enough to know they're lying. The they is a general they because it applies to anything you try to get support for.

Radial tires I think like different camber and that's the big difference, but I know little.

Eddie, You're right there, with the needing to understand what caster, camber and the numbers mean, rather than just reading what the machine says.

[Grumpy old man]

It's sad when we've come to the stage that even a suspension mechanic has no clue what to do unless they are lead by the hand of a computer .

[jerry moss]

my employer has two shops here in town, we don't do alignments at my shop but every time i send an older vehicle to his shop my employer has to align it-his hot shot "alignment guy" can only do it if it's in the computer. he's a little punk a$$ know-it-all but he can really set up a honda-woo hoo. he told me i should scrap my solid axle front diffs and install IFS front diffs, says they ride better and work better off road. he even offered to help me set them up

[schwoch1]

I align a ton of older vehicles on a routine basis. We usually set the machine as a S10 pickup and don't bother with the red/green gauges, just look at the numbers and align it to what we think they should be. We usually try to shoot for 0 degrees or slightly negative on the camber, 1/16 toe in and as much caster as we can get out of the suspension. Set the steering wheel center and it's usually golden. Haven't had a complaint yet!!! Nothing to it, just most chain alignment shops are lazy!

Mike

['68 Newtricks]

yep, best alignment I've ever had came from a guy with a level 4 post hoist, tape measure, and bubble levels. He's done my S10 twice now. Pepboys and another local store with computer stuff couldn't get it right.

I did my Blazer, had to, who the hell's going to work with spindle shims and 38s? Drives great

[mikey2409]

For the proper alignment your looking for you need to find a shop with a hunter alignment machine they date back to the 50's on the software they only reason
I know I've done alignment for the past 5-6 years and ill suggest Firestone and buy the lifetime alignment it's worth the investment as long as you own the vehicle I purchased it for all my vehicles when I worked with them now that I've moved in to the dealerships I don't reall need to purchase the lifetime alignment since I have everyday access to a machine but I do recommend it to everyone

[toolboxchev]

Not to be demeaning to anyone one here who is a mechanic, yet to the ones who are worth their salt I say, " If you need a computer to tell you how to fix one of these trucks you may need to have a close look at where you received your education from."

In needing a computer as in Its going to tell me how to fix it. These vehicles existed, prolonged, endured and survived and won long before the computer has been utilized as an aid.

[schwoch1]

Originally Posted by toolboxchev

Not to be demeaning to anyone one here who is a mechanic, yet to the ones who are worth their salt I say, " If you need a computer to tell you how to fix one of these trucks you may need to have a close look at where you received your education from."

In needing a computer as in Its going to tell me how to fix it. These vehicles existed, prolonged, endured and survived and won long before the computer has been utilized as an aid.

As an auto tech for the last 23 years, I NEED to have a computer to work on late model cars to aid me in repairing them. How else do you diagnose a MIL on a late model car without a computer of some sort.Unless it's a Chrysler product, there is no way to read codes without some sort of computer.

I NEED to have a computer to get me a wiring diagram of any late model car so I can understand how a circuit works or where a short could be.

Now, to work on an older car/truck, you don't need a computer to tell you anything for them. A little common sense can go a long way with them.A computer can help get some wiring diagrams, but you still have to know how to read them!

Now regarding alignment machines, they give you the same info that a tape measure and an angle finder can. If you don't know how to interpret the data you have with either method of alignment, you should take the truck to someone who can, plain and simple!!!

Just my opinion!

Mike

[LostMy65]

Saved for reference..

[lyrikz]

Originally Posted by Carmen Black

After buying a perfectly good running truck, I decided I needed to replace the front springs which the PO had cut down to the point they rattled in their pockets. That turned into this.

So after replacing everything but the engine and the sheet metal, I finally made an appointment for the alignment shop. I chose Merchants Tire because it was 2 miles from my house, and I was worried about having a problem with the truck or dragging the non-aligned tires since it hadn't been out of garage in 9 months.

Well the guy at the shop types the VIN number into a handheld computer. The VIN doesn't come up so he just looks at me and says he can't help me.
I ask him what he is talking about and he says if my truck isn't in the computer, he doesn't know how to align it. The he says that my truck probably has shims. I say yes, its probably got a 1/2 inch of shims on each side. He looked at me like I just fell out of the sky. So I just got back in my truck and left.

The good news is the truck ran great and didn't really feel out of alignment. I kept all the shims together that came out of the truck so I could put them back in and pulled the tie rods out as an assembly so that I could match the length of the new MOOG parts and it drove surprisingly well.

It was really nice weather today and I really wanted to get back on the road.
I just didn't think someone had to have a computer tell them how to do an alignment. I guess I have to find some old timer shop to make this happen.

The problem is those alignments normally sell for 79 bucks and the tech gets an hour pay maaaaaaaybe. So your 2 hour plus alignment shows up that's going to require parts and a bunch of labor and no one wants to do it. I dont. I can do them but I turn em down all the time.

[LEEVON]

Originally Posted by lyrikz

The problem is those alignments normally sell for 79 bucks and the tech gets an hour pay maaaaaaaybe. So your 2 hour plus alignment shows up that's going to require parts and a bunch of labor and no one wants to do it. I dont. I can do them but I turn em down all the time.

Exactly! But also, in the OP's defense, an alignment tech should know how to override the machine and enter the specs...although knowing what they should actually be and why is another story. My new Hunter Hawkeye Elite does have specs for my '71 and even has the diagrams showing where to shim, etc. I would assume older machines do also? Sounds like he used the VIN scanner as an excuse to get opted out, as he was probably undersold by his service advisor. Shims are extra, should've prepped the customer.

[toolboxchev]

Hey Nigel, that video you did is pretty interesting. Since everything is on the other side of the road do you guys still get some Octane in you fuel over there?

[lyrikz]

Originally Posted by LEEVON

Exactly! But also, in the OP's defense, an alignment tech should know how to override the machine and enter the specs...although knowing what they should actually be and why is another story. My new Hunter Hawkeye Elite does have specs for my '71 and even has the diagrams showing where to shim, etc. I would assume older machines do also? Sounds like he used the VIN scanner as an excuse to get opted out, as he was probably undersold by his service advisor. Shims are extra, should've prepped the customer.

Agreed, it doesnt take long to look up specs on a vehicle.
A vehicle like that i would charge 2 hours and if i was done sooner, i would pass that on to the customer. That normally gets people to say no and try and find somewhere else. THEN they come back after that other shop didnt do it right or couldnt do it. lol