Why's everybody hatin' on the 305?

[68post]

Originally Posted by 68c10owner

This is incorrect information. Go run that past your favorite engine builder and let us know what he says. The difference in bore and stroke would create 2 completely different power bands from a 302 and a 305. And I dont recall anyone suggestion to the OP to build a 302 I stead of keeping his 305.

I believe the pro's and con's of each design would negate a definite lead by either design. Both were built from a compromise of existing parts availability.

Just to confuse - where does the un-loved 307 lay in this debate ? Is it the best of both worlds, or neither ?? LOL...

[Firebirdjones]

305's do what GM intended. I think the reason some remove it in a truck application, is likely the same reason I wouldn't buy a truck with one. As far as trucks go I use them to haul and tow, so I prefer big blocks. 305 pickups are also cheaper to buy so that may interest some that plan a motor swap later. Nothing really wrong with the engine though, it's just small and performs just as you would expect a small engine to do.

Doesn't mean I'm not a small engine fan. We have a 69 Z with it's original 302, my wife drives it. Fun little engine to buzz around in. GM packaged that one right, fairly nimble driving car, light weight, and only come in 4-speeds. 3.73 was the standard gear with others optional. Yeah it likes RPM but has no trouble at all lugging around town either. Again, it's geared properly and in a light car. It's not an engine I'd want in a pickup truck however.
With that said, it's completely different from a 305. 302's were designed for a more specific use and has absolutely nothing in common with a 305 from a design standpoint.

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by 68post

I believe the pro's and con's of each design would negate a definite lead by either design. Both were built from a compromise of existing parts availability.

Just to confuse - where does the un-loved 307 lay in this debate ? Is it the best of both worlds, or neither ?? LOL...

I'm not sure I follow your first comment but the 307 is just the 283 bore with the 327 stroke. GM dropped that one as well in favor of the 305 so I'm thinking their engineers did that for a reason.

As mentioned the 302 can be a docile daily drivable engine but it's not ideal for a heavy truck. Im a big fan of smaller engine especially as well, usually fall back onto 327s, but I know enough about engine performance after 25+ yrs of messing with them to know that each engine enables has its place. Short stroke engines don't belong in heavy vehicles.

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by Firebirdjones

305's do what GM intended. I think the reason some remove it in a truck application, is likely the same reason I wouldn't buy a truck with one. As far as trucks go I use them to haul and tow, so I prefer big blocks. 305 pickups are also cheaper to buy so that may interest some that plan a motor swap later. Nothing really wrong with the engine though, it's just small and performs just as you would expect a small engine to do.

The 305 has been used mainly to times in trucks that tow without issue. These little engines as so under estimated because everyone just goes to the bigger is better and swaps them out.

[Firebirdjones]

Originally Posted by 68c10owner

The 305 has been used mainly to times in trucks that tow without issue. These little engines as so under estimated because everyone just goes to the bigger is better and swaps them out.

A ski do sure When I say tow I mean TOW. Like my 28 foot enclosed trailer up a 6 mile long mountain grade, lol. Even on flat ground I wouldn't try pulling that with a 305.

Shucks I wouldn't even tow my 16' flat bed with a car on it with a 305 It's just miserable, I've been down that road before.

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by Firebirdjones

A ski do sure When I say tow I mean TOW. Like my 28 foot enclosed trailer up a 6 mile long mountain grade, lol. Even on flat ground I wouldn't try pulling that with a 305.

Shucks I wouldn't even tow my 16' flat bed with a car on it with a 305 It's just miserable, I've been down that road before.

My truck has a 305 and had a 5th wheel installed at some point. I've towed cars with 305s before and they aren't that bad. Just not as good as a bigger engine. And I dont recall the OP asking about towing so yet again this discussion has gotten side tracked.

Bottom line is there is nothing wrong with a 305 engine. No it wont make the power of a bigger engine but they are still good work engines.

[68post]

...yes, I do know the bore and stroke (and of all 3). Have a '71 307 languishing in the garage right now, shame it's of no use to me - it's low mileage.

The very small bore of the 305 helped with emissions - which at the time was probably their main concern.

GM's small engines have a history of using existing current (at their build time) crank strokes of their larger brothers.
Olds '68 to '69 400 and 455.
Olds 260, 307, 330, 350, and 403 - all the same stroke.
Buick 430 and 455
Pontiac 326, 350, 389, & 400
Chevy 307 and 327. 305 and 350. 396 and 427

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by 68post

...yes, I do know the bore and stroke (and of all 3). Have a '71 307 languishing in the garage right now, shame it's of no use to me - it's low mileage.

The very small bore of the 305 helped with emissions - which at the time was probably their main concern.

GM's small engines have a history of using existing current (at their build time) crank strokes of their larger brothers.
Olds '68 to '69 400 and 455.
Olds 260, 307, 330, 350, and 403 - all the same stroke.
Buick 430 and 455
Pontiac 326, 350, 389, & 400
Chevy 307 and 327. 305 and 350. 396 and 427

Thats great Tim. Not sure why you mentioned the 307 though. Guess people just want to beat a dead horse but I've lost interest.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by 68c10owner

I know the bore and stroke of the chevy 302 is 4.0x3.0. How is a 3.0 stroke better than a 3.48 stroke from the 305? The bigger bore will help the 302 breath on the top end but the 3.0 stroke has never been known for any kind of low end torque. In a heavy truck I`d want the low end pull over top end power.

Stroke is not the only thing that dictates torque production.

[Skeetman]

I had and bought new a 1978 C10 with a 305. At 66,000 miles the cam shaft failed, for some reason GM used soft steel and the cams wore out. I had the camshaft replaced. 12,000 miles later that 305 started burning a lot of oil.
All said I have a bad taste for the 305. But if you have one and it runs good drive it.
A year after I sold the truck I found out GM had a recall for the camshaft defect, so I submitted my repair receipts and GM reimbursed me.

[Firebirdjones]

Originally Posted by 68c10owner

My truck has a 305 and had a 5th wheel installed at some point. I've towed cars with 305s before and they aren't that bad. Just not as good as a bigger engine. And I dont recall the OP asking about towing so yet again this discussion has gotten side tracked.

Bottom line is there is nothing wrong with a 305 engine. No it wont make the power of a bigger engine but they are still good work engines.

Umm, he asked why everyone hates the 305 or swaps them out. I simply gave one reason. So the way I see it, this thread is exactly on track with my comments.

Yeah apparently some people's idea of how good a 305 tow's is WAY different than mine. I'm sure they can pull something. Just don't be in front of me when we hit the next hill, lol.

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by Tom

Stroke is not the only thing that dictates torque production.

I never said it was. But I have enough experience to know that a longer stroke in a heavy vehicle puts you ahead of the "torque production" game.

Back in the day you could get a truck with a 307 but the experts at GM decided that the 305 was a better engine. There is no reason to not use a 305 in a truck unless you are doing some heavy hauling and in many cases even the 350 wont be up to the task. For a daily driver, like mine, there is really no reason to go to a bigger engine. THe only reason I would do it is costs. It`s actually cheaper to buy a 350 crate engine than to rebuild a 305. Hell the 305 long block from GM cost more than their 350 crate. Doesnt make a lot of sense there but thats what it is.

This isnt rocket science guys. Some of you just seem to want to argue over nothing. Someone disagrees with you so you argue to prove a point. no possible way the 305 could be a decent engine, right? Whatever. Go ahead, put a large bore short stroke engine in your 5000lb truck and enjoy it. I`m plenty happy with my 305 and not that I got the carb rebuilt and everything is working as it should it makes plenty of power and brings in some decent mileage.

[Blessed66]

Originally Posted by 68c10owner

This isnt rocket science guys. Some of you just seem to want to argue over nothing. Someone disagrees with you so you argue to prove a point. no possible way the 305 could be a decent engine, right? Whatever. Go ahead, put a large bore short stroke engine in your 5000lb truck and enjoy it. I`m plenty happy with my 305 and not that I got the carb rebuilt and everything is working as it should it makes plenty of power and brings in some decent mileage.

Don't let it get to you.

There will always be people who think 305 = garbage, no matter how eloquent or convicing your argument may be. This industry has about a 2:1 ratio of bad information to good information, so it's no surprise how many myths are out there.

[Firebirdjones]

Relax, no one is arguing anything here that I've seen. Just simply stating some opinions as to what the OP originally asked. Oberon is the one asking but you seem to be taking offense to it. It's all good bud. You have one so you're a little bias, that's okay. If you're happy with your 305 that's all that matters. Just because some of us don't want one doesn't mean it's a horrible engine, never said it was.

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by Blessed66

Don't let it get to you.

There will always be people who think 305 = garbage, no matter how eloquent or convicing your argument may be. This industry has about a 2:1 ratio of bad information to good information, so it's no surprise how many myths are out there.

What gets to me is all of the bigger is better crap. Not everyone needs the biggest engine possible. Sure in a perfect world we can have it all. I went through this same stuff with my 327 build back in the 90`s. 383`s were just starting to get popular enough that you didnt have to cut down 400 cranks anymore so people started building them expecting all the power in the world. It was fun beating a lot of them with my little 327.

Originally Posted by Firebirdjones

Relax, no one is arguing anything here that I've seen. Just simply stating some opinions as to what the OP originally asked. Oberon is the one asking but you seem to be taking offense to it. It's all good bud. You have one so you're a little bias, that's okay. If you're happy with your 305 that's all that matters. Just because some of us don't want one doesn't mean it's a horrible engine, never said it was.

I`m not taking offence to anything. I`m simply trying to stop the bashing of any of these engines anytime someone asks about something other than a 383 or LS. I`m not bias towards any engine. I just cant see trashing a perfectly good engine. Yeah, I have one but as soon as I can afford a bigger engine its getting swapped. I`m not saying the 305 is the best in the world and we all should have one but from my experience a majority of the bashers of anything are repeating stories they have heard and dont really have first hand knowledge.

One of the reasons I came back to this site from a very good performance site is anytime someone asked about something that wasnt the "in thing" they were trashed and made to feel like they were scum for even asking about it. This site never use to be that way, which is why I came back, but I see it slowly getting there.

[Oberon67]

I certainly can't say I'm disappointed by the discussion on this thread. The sort of back-and-forth I'm seeing gives me an opportunity to see all the sides of the issue. It also makes me wonder if at some point down the road there will be plenty of spare 305s lying around in peoples' garages.

[Firebirdjones]

I don't see any bashing, it all looks pretty civil to me with just opinions stated :shrug:

[Blessed66]

Originally Posted by 68c10owner

What gets to me is all of the bigger is better crap. Not everyone needs the biggest engine possible. Sure in a perfect world we can have it all. I went through this same stuff with my 327 build back in the 90`s. 383`s were just starting to get popular enough that you didnt have to cut down 400 cranks anymore so people started building them expecting all the power in the world. It was fun beating a lot of them with my little 327.

The old phrase of "there is no replacement for displacement" carries a lot of weight with many people, and the fallacy of it seems to go unmentioned. Obviously, there is some truth to the phrase, but it's not always a night and day difference - like people may want to believe.

I guess people don't want to accept that 4 cylinder engines can be (and have been) built that chew up V8s and spit them out.

[Front Range]

Originally Posted by 68c10owner

I`m simply trying to stop the bashing of any of these engines anytime someone asks about something other than a 383 or LS.

Originally Posted by 68c10owner

One of the reasons I came back to this site from a very good performance site is anytime someone asked about something that wasnt the "in thing" they were trashed and made to feel like they were scum for even asking about it. This site never use to be that way, which is why I came back, but I see it slowly getting there.

The challenge there is everyone has a different view of the World and what's in it. If you can learn to share space with people who's opinions oppose yours, then life gets a lot easier. The problems usually begin when people are true believers = my view of the subject is the only legitimate truth. It can get worse when it goes from an argument between 2 people into a group monkey dance where Imaginary Status is on the line. Reality is there are many opinions, experiences, and truths for individual people.

305 is an awesome motor

305 is a piece of crap

Both statements are true depending on the individual.

[68c10owner]

I get a kick out of these subtle implications. Once false information hits the internet it instantly becomes truth.

Yes bigger engine can make more power but that doesn't mean the smaller engines are junk or not worth building.

[Gmc.guy]

Originally Posted by 68c10owner

I get a kick out of these subtle implications. Once false information hits the internet it instantly becomes truth.

Yes bigger engine can make more power but that doesn't mean the smaller engines are junk or not worth building.

I agree 100% you think like I do. I run 305's from 200$ Grand Prix and Parisienne cars in wasted rusty trucks in high school. I have a huge stash of "throwaway" "junk" engines. old 265's,283's to 305 and 307's to 250/292's. I like the integrated intake 250, and the 6.2. Sometimes 120 or 200 HP is all you need or want. Here anyway a lot of people are going back to the Inlines and putting 283's back in the cars they threw away years ago and searching and searching for correct parts. I suspect 305's will be the most valuable in many years to come. They are almost all thrown away

[Gmc.guy]

Originally Posted by Front Range

The challenge there is everyone has a different view of the World and what's in it. If you can learn to share space with people who's opinions oppose yours, then life gets a lot easier. The problems usually begin when people are true believers = my view of the subject is the only legitimate truth. It can get worse when it goes from an argument between 2 people into a group monkey dance where Imaginary Status is on the line. Reality is there are many opinions, experiences, and truths for individual people.

305 is an awesome motor

305 is a piece of crap

Both statements are true depending on the individual.

I agree with you too!

[Blessed66]

Originally Posted by 68c10owner

Yes bigger engine can make more power but that doesn't mean the smaller engines are junk or not worth building.

Makes the smaller engines cheaper, though.

I've had people offer to give me plenty of 305s, I just didn't have anything (at the time) I could do with them.

[El Dorado Jim]

I have a 305 I bought from my son, he was parting out an 86? 1/2 ton I think it was, the engine ran great, so I bought it and it is in my shop waiting to be put in my '70 jeep at a later date...

[Axle]

Why the Hatin'?
Well, some people can live with a 305, towing, driving, cruising. The guy I bought my GMC from, he is that guy. He is Mr Slow and Steady. The 305 suits his driving style perfectly. These guys fall into the same catagory who feel that the straight 6 is a suitable truck engine (be it the Ford or GM guys). I admire their resolve and ability to be satisified with slow and steady...

Me? Not a chance. I drive it like I stole it. I prefer to get up to the speed limit promptly. When I pass somebody, I prefer to pass them yesterday. When I am towing, I like some grunt, and some in reserve just in case. I can't leave anything alone anyways and always end up modifying what I drive. In the case of a 305, you gain very little for your dollar, a 350 or bigger gives you more bang for your modification buck. Back in my stop light drag days, you had some guys who sunk money into their 305's. Well, they sunk money into them alright for very little gain. Put that same cash and or mods into a 350+ and you see more return for your dollar. We even had two glutons for punishment that decided to hot rod their slant 6's. Man, they spent crazy money and did not manage to do any better than a guy with a stock 350 with just a dual exhaust and maybe headers. What they got for their money was a level of performance that let them play with the v8's.

All that is said with respect to the previous era's engines. With todays engine management and manufacturers efforts to get every last drop of performance and fuel economy has put things on a whole other level. But in short, if you have a tendency to modify, and like things to be more zippy, a larger engine is the more economical choice long term.

Alex.