30wt in summer?

[turbotruck]

20w50 valvoline vr1 in my sbc

[RichardJ]

For those that subscribe to HotRod magazine, you've seen this before. The video below isn't really very informative, but will give you an idea of what I am looking at.
In the last three issues of HotRod, they have been showing "AmsOil Engine Masters Challenge" with detailed specs including oil weight used.

The April '16 issue starts with an assortment of '50 V8 engines making around 500 hp and most use 10w-30. Next are three stock displacement LS3 engines making just under 600 hp and all using 0w-20 weight oil. Next are Small Block Buick and Ford engines from the '60s. Hp is between 500-600 and using 0w-20 to 10w-30 oil.

The May '16 has three Mopar Hemi's making 650-800 hp and all are using 5w-20 oil.

The June '16 issue has a group of five traditional Big Blocks making between 700-800 hp. Three use 5w-20, one 10w-20 and a 875 hp Ford using 10w-40.


HiPo engine building technology has changed a lot since the '70s and so has the oil. A can of 15w-40 or 20w-50 oil isn't going to turn your daily driver into a Race car just because it says Racing on the label.

Thinner modern oils make more power, better fuel efficiency and promote less wear.


https://youtu.be/Rt73XFph40E

[Mr Handy]

Originally Posted by dazza

I've been pointing people to a post of his over on the Chevelle forum but it's just a list of the results. Cool to see his blog on the subject and really great info. Thanks for the link.

Originally Posted by Z10

Read and learn"540 Rat". By the way, I'm running 5w30 Mobil 1. This report pretty much confirms what I've been doing for years.

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/201...-test-ranking/

I keep seeing this guys Blog posted around the Internet and I read through his mile long bolg. One thing struck me really strange. He never signs his name to the massive amount of work and he has no citations or test criteria. He just repeats over and over that he did it the right way, that everyone else is wrong, and that if you argue with him you are arguing with science. Maybe I missed it but I also didn't see him talk about shear strength and the interaction between parts in a rotating situation where the oil is stripped from the parts and not crushed... this is what Zinc is for and where the majority of wear happens in an engine.

I have a degree in History and my wife in Biology, and if either of us used this information in any way in any research project or study we would have been laughed out of class.

He may be spot on and it is an interesting, if long winded "study" but I would not take his word for anything more than I paid for it.

[dazza]

Thanks Mr. Handy, you really have me thinking about this, I just need to find the time to read it all the way through. The parts I have read are interesting, although, when I'm researching something, I tend to read from multiple places and usually lean towards the majority.

I'm not an engineer or a scientist, but not once in what i have read thus far has he mention even the possibility of his testing being flawed. He does push very hard in regards to the validity of his results, but gives very few names of people that back his findings. I'm thinking he's a bit paranoid that someone doesn't like what he's doing, after all, the address he has people send samples to is a UPS Store.

I'm not saying I think he's right or wrong, just observing how his writing comes across.

[davepl]

Just because it's in a book doesn't mean it's true.
Just because it's on the Internet doesn't mean it's true.
Just because the guy's an engineer doesn't make it true.

After all, you could be the top scientist in your field but unless and until a bunch of other similarly qualified scientists vet and duplicate your work, it's just a new theory.

And of course it could be 100% right. But "appeal to authority" is one of the oldest fallacies around.

[GASoline71]

Most 30wt oils used to be "non-detergent" oils and were preferred for initial start up of engines. Even before we had to "break in" new flat tappets.

Hell I live in WA State and used to run straight 30wt in everything until the early 1990's. Never had a problem with it. It just got harder to find and more expensive than the multi-weight oils.

So now I use 10w30 for my older rigs.

Gary

[Mr Handy]

Originally Posted by dazza

Thanks Mr. Handy, you really have me thinking about this, I just need to find the time to read it all the way through. The parts I have read are interesting, although, when I'm researching something, I tend to read from multiple places and usually lean towards the majority.

I'm not an engineer or a scientist, but not once in what i have read thus far has he mention even the possibility of his testing being flawed. He does push very hard in regards to the validity of his results, but gives very few names of people that back his findings. I'm thinking he's a bit paranoid that someone doesn't like what he's doing, after all, the address he has people send samples to is a UPS Store.

I'm not saying I think he's right or wrong, just observing how his writing comes across.

Same here, I try to read as much as I can on a subject from as many different sources as possible. With how much press the blog is getting it is definitely worth a read.
A few weeks ago I was reading about gear oils and the different ratings GL4/GL5 and how they are tested. I wish I had saved the source I found that talked about zinc and how some GL5 oils may not be great for older transmissions with brass syncros, because the zinc is their to bond to the metal and create a layer that is then worn off as the parts rub, Then the oil deposits more zinc and on and on. The study found that certain levels and combinations of additives found in different oils can actually create such a strong bond that the bond between the brass and zinc is stronger than the brass to brass and can increase wear... This would not be an issue for iron or steel rotating assemblies like cam/lifter. When I read what Rat had to say about zinc,the two Ideas are polar opposites.

Either way I found it interesting. The one thing I learned in college was to check the source if I wanted to claim something I have to be able to back it up.

[Grumpy old man]

Sorry guys but back in the day all we had was 30 weight and ran it all year . I run 20-50 castrol for many years now and never had a problem with it. Now they have the plastic oil for the plastic engines .

[davepl]

Originally Posted by Grumpy old man

Sorry guys but back in the day all we had was 30 weight and ran it all year . I run 20-50 castrol for many years now and never had a problem with it. Now they have the plastic oil for the plastic engines .

I get that your middle name is "old", but unless you've got some sloppy side clearances on your rods, why?

There's no one "right" oil viscosity, it really depends on how the engine was blueprinted and assembled. When I build a roller cam motor I don't need near as much oil slung around, so I build it tighter. But even a flat tappet motor like my 396 makes 60psi cold on 5W-30, so why would I ever run anything heavier?

Now I too have had tired old motors I ran 20W50 in, but this thread is starting to sound like "Back in the olden days when men were men our oil was thick as lard, like God intended it". Thicker's not always better.

[jeffahart]

I usually run 30w in all my old V8s: SBCs, and Fords, Mopar ect... I have for years, yes, just like grandpa, dad and the other stooges up my family tree.

No worries for me with 30w. I won't even duck and cover!

What I do worry about, being I'm in California, is.... that mystery $hit coming out of the nozzle of the gas pump... garbage!!!!

Gota give you a little bizz Davepl... because I run 30w!

[MikeB]

When an engine likes to run at 185-200 degrees, 50 degrees is relatively cold.

Here's the deal: Most wear occurs at engine start-up. Thicker oil, even 30 weight, may be great at 190 degrees, but it's harder to pump to the crank and cam bearings, and sling up on the cylinder walls when it's cold. On the other hand, something like 5W30 gets oil everywhere a lot faster, and then increases in viscosity as the engine warms up. So it's the best of both worlds.

Now, if an engine is worn out, and makes only 20 psi oil pressure with 10W30, something like 20W50 might be in order. But I see no reason to run a straight weight oil these days.

As for ZDDP, unless your valves springs have significantly higher seat pressure than stock, I'd say use an oil like Mobil 1 10W30, or better yet Valvoline Racing 10W30 (in the silver jar). They both have more zinc and phosphate than average oil these days. For some insurance, use Driven 10W30 "Hot Rod" oil. Not cheap at $9-$10/qt, but neither is a wiped cam lobe.

[MikeB]

Originally Posted by davepl

But even a flat tappet motor like my 396 makes 60psi cold on 5W-30, so why would I ever run anything heavier?

Man, that's it in a nut shell!

My fairly new roller cam 355 has >60psi when cold, even with 10W30. I should probably go with 5W30 or even 0W30 next time.

[Grumpy old man]

Originally Posted by davepl

I get that your middle name is "old", but unless you've got some sloppy side clearances on your rods, why?

There's no one "right" oil viscosity, it really depends on how the engine was blueprinted and assembled. When I build a roller cam motor I don't need near as much oil slung around, so I build it tighter. But even a flat tappet motor like my 396 makes 60psi cold on 5W-30, so why would I ever run anything heavier?

Now I too have had tired old motors I ran 20W50 in, but this thread is starting to sound like "Back in the olden days when men were men our oil was thick as lard, like God intended it". Thicker's not always better.

Billions of miles have been driven in new (OLD) and every make and model using OLD dinosaur based oil ,now with the advent of internet based mechanics nothing but synthetic low viscosity is correct ? These old engines weren't built with the tolerances of today with coated piston and computer synchronized cam an crank sensors, oxygen sensors etc . The oil debate will go on forever ! Use whatever works for you and your engine as there is no one perfect solution . Just seems funny to me that the guys who sing the praises of $10.00 a quart synthetic oil also seem to be talking about valve issues or wanting better fuel mileage out of a semi performance built 350 that began life as an old truck engine ? remember most of these old trucks didn't even come with an oil pressure gauge ,just a warning light .

[Mrturner1]

I use Helix Ultra 10w60 Formula 1 race car oil and if you don't,?....well then F@$! YOU your engines gonna fail!






In the winter I use Catepillar D9 Earth Mover additive in case sh!? gets heavy

[jeffahart]

Originally Posted by Grumpy old man

Billions of miles have been driven in new (OLD) and every make and model using OLD dinosaur based oil ,now with the advent of internet based mechanics nothing but synthetic low viscosity is correct ? These old engines weren't built with the tolerances of today with coated piston and computer synchronized cam an crank sensors, oxygen sensors etc . The oil debate will go on forever ! Use whatever works for you and your engine as there is no one perfect solution . Just seems funny to me that the guys who sing the praises of $10.00 a quart synthetic oil also seem to be talking about valve issues or wanting better fuel mileage out of a semi performance built 350 that began life as an old truck engine ? remember most of these old trucks didn't even come with an oil pressure gauge ,just a warning light .

I just took action! I called my Dad this morning and blamed him for all my life problems because he got me started on 30w fifty years ago. And the old fool told me recently to keep using it in the SBC. But now I have bigger issues, it seems!

So now I'm getting my house in order. I'm frightened over the hand grenade filter.

"Cover me while I throw a grenade.... err dump in 30w"

[MikeB]

Originally Posted by Grumpy old man

Billions of miles have been driven in new (OLD) and every make and model using OLD dinosaur based oil, now with the advent of internet based mechanics nothing but synthetic low viscosity is correct ? Remember most of these old trucks didn't even come with an oil pressure gauge , just a warning light .

Those old engines also used ignition points and ran non-detergent oil through partial flow oil filtration systems, if any filtration at all. And many would start making valve train noise and blowing smoke out the tailpipe and road draft tube at 50K miles, if not sooner. Those are things about the good old days that I personally don't miss.

I guess the real question is, after looking at the viscosity vs. temperature charts earlier in this thread, why would anyone subject a cold engine to abuse by single weight oil when multi-viscosity oils are available?

[jeffahart]

Originally Posted by Mrturner1

I use Helix Ultra 10w60 Formula 1 race car oil and if you don't,?....well then F@$! YOU your engines gonna fail

Switching now!

Thanks!

[MikeB]

Originally Posted by Mrturner1

I use Helix Ultra 10w60 Formula 1 race car oil and if you don't,?....well then F@$! YOU your engines gonna fail!

When saddled with a limited vocabulary, resort to resort to F-bombs.

[davepl]

I don't claim to know. I just figure what GM recommended in 1970 is probably right for a motor built with 1970 technology and 1970 clearances.

That's neither 0W20 or 20W50 but normally somewhere in between. There's usually a chart towards the back of the manual. SAE30 isn't listed for all year, but for summer driving it appears just fine.

I'm not saying I grew up in hardware store selling cans of Havoline from the counter behind me in a climate that ran from -45 in the winter to +110 in the summer. But I did, and so we had to worry about this stuff. In Northern California you and Steinbeck can run SAE 30 and not worry. :-)

[Mrturner1]

Originally Posted by jeffahart

I just took action! I called my Dad this morning and blamed him for all my life problems because he got me started on 30w fifty years ago. And the old fool told me recently to keep using it in the SBC. But now I have bigger issues, it seems!

So now I'm getting my house in order. I'm frightened over the hand grenade filter.

"Cover me while I throw a grenade.... err dump in 30w"

Davepl is right about the oil filter grenading, it is a legitimate worry when you start raising the oil pressure too high. Oil plugs and coolers can come apart too, definitely not fun

[Mrturner1]

Originally Posted by RichardJ

HiPo engine building technology has changed a lot since the '70s and so has the oil. A can of 15w-40 or 20w-50 oil isn't going to turn your daily driver into a Race car just because it says Racing on the label.

Thinner modern oils make more power, better fuel efficiency and promote less wear.


https://youtu.be/Rt73XFph40E

What a minute, oil doesn't make a race car but it does make horsepower?