Moody's Utah 58 Apache

[alexMoody]

Originally Posted by _Ogre

i found the perfect motor for alexmoody.... providing he checks in again this year
the I6 is back! 3.0L twin turbo 500hp, it's mopar but who cares anymore

though i'd have to cut all that plastic off to see the motor

Alright, I know im not on here much, I travel alot for work and especially with a new baby. Time is limited.

I think ill stick with the 235 that is in it for now but i wont rule anything out yet.

Ive done some work, new brake booster on the firewall. wiring harness has been started a few patch panels.

For the brake lines on these old rigs, are they all 1/4 or are they 3/16. I want to order new lines and re do them all front to back?

[_Ogre]

Originally Posted by alexMoody

For the brake lines on these old rigs, are they all 1/4 or are they 3/16. I want to order new lines and re do them all front to back?

1/4" for drum, 3/16" for disk
imo, its a lot easier to buy premade straight lines at autozone and just bend them to fit
you can get 6" to 5' lines with a flare and nut on each end

congrats on the baby!
glad those days are behind me, #5 grandkid is 3 days old

[alexMoody]

Originally Posted by _Ogre

1/4" for drum, 3/16" for disk
imo, its a lot easier to buy premade straight lines at autozone and just bend them to fit
you can get 6" to 5' lines with a flare and nut on each end

congrats on the baby!
glad those days are behind me, #5 grandkid is 3 days old

Congratulations to you too then!

Thanks for the info on the brakes. I’ll run down later today and snag some lines up.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Dan in Pasadena]

Originally Posted by alexMoody

Hello all, Ive been MIA for a few years. I had a chance to move to Newport Beach CA for a few years to live for free all for the name of work so I did. That meant putting a hold on a few projects. I had a 59 but sold it because I didnt want it sitting in a friends garage while i was gone. I found a 58 through a friend and when i moved back to Utah, I bought a house and started back up on the truck.

This one is also in really good shape. Much better than my last one. I got it from a guy that got it from Washington. This was a National Guard truck. Its been painted five different colors that ive seen so far. Here are some pictures of the bad areas. The brown in the pictures are from the paint.

Its got the 6 cyl engine in it but my old man got me a 350 for $200 when I looked up the number on the block it came up with a corvette website. It came out of a van.

I know you're not asking but what the hell:

My '55's dash only had two additional holes for slightly differently spaced radio knobs and I welded in replacement metal to make it appear stock. In hindsight I wish I'd bought the totally smooth repalkcemet dash and gotten rid of all my dash holes in eluding the heater controls then moved my Vintage Air AC controls to where the original ash tray was. With the giant hole in your dash it'd be easy to justify.

[alexMoody]

It’s a big hole for sure. This truck was a fire truck of some kind in the coast gaurd and I’m presuming that was for a CB radio. I’ve already replaced that section to make it original.

[alexMoody]

Ive been reassembling the front end after getting some holes filled on the firewall and all new brake system put in.

I have a few questions for the experts on the inner fenders. First, I've lost the four bolts and large washers for the inner fenders that pass through the grommets. Can someone that knows the size of those let me know? Id like to order them for when I'm back in town they will be there ready to install.

Second my inner fender has a large gap on the top and touching on the bottom, Im presuming this is because not everything is bolted down tight but wanted to confirm that after everything is bolted on and snugged up it will correct itself?

Lastly ive got the new foam/anit squeak and I believe I know where they all go, how ever one came split open the other didn't. Im sure it doesn't matter but maybe my thoughts on how they attach are wrong.

[dsraven]

to start, since you say the gaps are not even close to same, check out the cab mounts and also the rad support mounts. the cab sits on rubber at the rear and steel on steel at the front, then the rad support sits on rubber. if these rubber mounts are hard, cracked or missing then the cab can be allowed to sag down at the rear and this can affect the gaps. same for the rad support. also check the steel around the cab mounts to make sure the area is not rusted out. these trucks tended to get rain or snow melt caught in the inner cowl vent plenum that runs across the front of the cab by the windshield and then down each side to the floor vents and end up draining just below the vents. the drain hole is small and also has a little flap of steel screwed on to partially block the hole further. over time leaves, pine needles or ice can block the hole so rain or snow melt can build up to the point that it drained out through the floor vent out onto the floor of the cab, pooled there or ran down the step area and pooled there until it could dry or get out the door to step seal. this has rotted out more than a few task force trucks and that is why there are replacement parts available for the lower hinge pillar area, front cab mount area and the step and rocker area.
if those areas are all good, sheet metal wise, i would check the assembly manual fot the frame drawings and get the dimension between the floor of the cab and the frame. then check that against your truck. get the cab correct and then check the rad support mounts and get that area correct. after that the discrepancy for the inner fenders is likely just a manufactture flaw. the assembly manual will also show the correct assembly of the anti squeak foam and the bolt required at the firewall mount lower "L" brackets.
the assembly manual can be downloaded free at the trifve site. google

55-59 chevrolet truck factory assembly manual

and click on the trifive site

or try this link

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...hgNerbXG4oM_J-

[_Ogre]

like dsraven says, check all the body mounts. you really ought to change them all. with a gap like that, chances are the front fenders will fit similar to the inner fenders. make sure the core support mount is assembled correctly. either your core support is too high or the back of the cab is, possibly both. i've included the diagram for the core support, everything is available as a kit with bolts, washers, rubber washers and spacer, the spacer allows the bolt to tighten and still allow the core support movement.

2nd pic shows the 58-59 assembles differently than previous years; cab, core support, then inner fenders. makes it easier to build imo

remember that both L brackets bolt on the same direction, not left and right. last pic we put the front clip on to cut out for the mustII, the L bracket is exposed on the pass side, you only see the washer on the drivers side. last two pics show both brackets

[alexMoody]

Originally Posted by _Ogre

like dsraven says, check all the body mounts. you really ought to change them all. with a gap like that, chances are the front fenders will fit similar to the inner fenders. make sure the core support mount is assembled correctly. either your core support is too high or the back of the cab is, possibly both. i've included the diagram for the core support, everything is available as a kit with bolts, washers, rubber washers and spacer, the spacer allows the bolt to tighten and still allow the core support movement.

2nd pic shows the 58-59 assembles differently than previous years; cab, core support, then inner fenders. makes it easier to build imo

remember that both L brackets bolt on the same direction, not left and right. last pic we put the front clip on to cut out for the mustII, the L bracket is exposed on the pass side, you only see the washer on the drivers side. last two pics show both brackets

Awesome. Thank you for the replies. My core support and mounting hardware are all knew and as I remember from how I put them together it looks like that photo you attached. That must mean it’s the cab mounts. I’ll get a set ordered. I didn’t see any mention on that tri five link about bolt sizes for the 4 grommet bolts. I’ll figure it out when I get home and not on airport wifi.
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[dsraven]

I seem to remember those rubber bushings in the inner fenders had a steel insert so they would bottom out on the insert bushing before the rubber got mashed down too tight. Maybe check that in the assembly manual. You kinda need the manual when putting things back to stock so you know how it is supposed to be, not how the last guy who worked on it put it together. Well worth it to download to a stick so you can plug it in and it doesnt take hard drive space.

[dsraven]

Check the integrity of the metal around the cab mounts as well.
I believe that if the frame is level then the cab step would also be level. I use a digital torpedo level for this and if a longer run is nedded, like across grame rails maybe, I use a longer level with the digital level sitting on top. Digital is gonna give the same reading no matter what angle you look at it. A bubble level should be looked at from directly in front for a more accurate reading. Some are simply "close" no matter how you look at it.

[mr48chev]

The fun of having an engine that should but won't fire.

Show us a good clear photo of the distributor side of the engine that shows the wiring and maybe we can help figure it out.


Looking at that WA National Guard sticker. It didn't belong to the Guard, it was a pesonal Vehicle of a Guards member parking permit. You had to have that sticker to get on Post at Fort Lewis, the Yakima Training center or maybe even park in the lot at one of the NG armories.

[alexMoody]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

The fun of having an engine that should but won't fire.

Show us a good clear photo of the distributor side of the engine that shows the wiring and maybe we can help figure it out.


Looking at that WA National Guard sticker. It didn't belong to the Guard, it was a pesonal Vehicle of a Guards member parking permit. You had to have that sticker to get on Post at Fort Lewis, the Yakima Training center or maybe even park in the lot at one of the NG armories.

The bill of sale I have when I bought it say “department of homeland security US coast guard bill of sale”

Perhaps it was a retired vehicle that someone was using while it was still owned by the coast guard.
Posted via Mobile Device

[alexMoody]

Originally Posted by _Ogre

1/4" for drum, 3/16" for disk
imo, its a lot easier to buy premade straight lines at autozone and just bend them to fit
you can get 6" to 5' lines with a flare and nut on each end

congrats on the baby!
glad those days are behind me, #5 grandkid is 3 days old

I drove the truck out of its parking spot today, first time moving under its own power in about 25 years. Im having an issue with my brakes. I have a firewall mounted brake booster for drum/drum brakes and all new lines plumed. However, when the truck is off I can pump the brake and it feels firm. When it's running the brake has no resistance. The booster has a vacuum line that runs to the intake manifold under the carb. Sense the brakes are doing nothing, does this mean my wheel cylinders are bad or need to be rebuilt? Or do I still have air in my lines? Im not loosing fluid when I pump the brakes. The vacuum line definitely has vacuum.

Also, I can't find any wheel cylinders or rebuild kits for a 3600 3/4 ton. Everything is 3100 1/2 ton. Are they the same size?

I pulled it out to replace the cab mounts so I can get the inner fenders to line up better but in doing this I rolled into my '70 Baja bug and crushed a fender a little.

[dsraven]

when you start the truck does the brake pedal raise or drop at all? maybe an internal leak in the booster. when the truck is running try a stethoscope and listen for air leakage where the pushrod from the pedal goes into the booster. also, when the engine is shut off, the booster should be able to hold a vacuum, enough for one emergency stop application. if you pull the check valve off there should be a whoosh as vacuum is released.
here is a couple of quick reads on testing

https://www.yourmechanic.com/article...-brake-booster

https://www.wikihow.com/Test-a-Brake-Booster

[dsraven]

roadkill customs version
https://m.roadkillcustoms.com/test-power-brake-booster/

[dsraven]

if you take wheel cylinder to the parts place they may be able to match you up. otherwise, if they are fine on the inside of the bores-no rust or pitting-you can usually find some replacement cups at the parts store. some cylinders even have the size cast into them on the outside. have you tried rock auto?

[alexMoody]

Originally Posted by dsraven

if you take wheel cylinder to the parts place they may be able to match you up. otherwise, if they are fine on the inside of the bores-no rust or pitting-you can usually find some replacement cups at the parts store. some cylinders even have the size cast into them on the outside. have you tried rock auto?

I have checked the website, I’ve had wrong deliveries from them before. Twice bitten twice shy kinda situation with them. But if all else fails I order through them.

Also thanks for the link above. Based on a few of those steps it sounds like my booster is fine. I’ll trouble shoot again soon to confirm with the remaining steps.

[leegreen]

Originally Posted by alexMoody

1)first time moving under its own power in about 25 years.
2)when the truck is off I can pump the brake and it feels firm.
3)When it's running the brake has no resistance.
4)Also, I can't find any wheel cylinders or rebuild kits for a 3600 3/4 ton.

1) brakes dont like to sit so long, especially if they were old to start with, have you had the drums off to see if everything is free?
2)is that one pump or several to get a firm pedal? Multiple pumps indicates the brakes are out of adjustment, or there is still air
3)do you mean pedal goes to the floor or the brakes do nothing to stop the truck? to the floor seems to point at booster setup, no brakes, see point 1, everything is probably rusted up
4) any decent autoparts place will have loose rubber cups, that may be all you need. If the pistons are rusted into bores you may need more, but the fact you were able to bleed them gives some hope it will all come apart. The cups probably have the size on them once you get it apart. As dsraven says, it may also be stamped into the wheel cylinder casting

fwiw, my totally rebuilt drum brakes needed the cylinders honed and new cups after 30 ish years sitting assembled and sealed. Brake fluid and brake lube are designed to absorb water, but it only goes so far.

[dsraven]

-LG makes some good points. you never know what you have until you take it apart and check. sometimes that is faster than racking your brain troubleshooting or checking the net for how someone else fixed their problem which may not be the same as yours.
-a lot of the brake backing plates have an inspection hole in them for each brake shoe so the lining thickness can be checked. some may not be actually punched or drilled out but are simply a divot stamped into the sheet metal backing plate. these can be drilled out to see in there and then a rubber plug, like the one that covers the adjustment hole, can be used to fill the hole after. this would allow you to see what is happening at each wheel when a helper steps on the brakes. are the brake shoes moving and retracting properly? of course a drum removal and system check would be the best but this gives a quick indicator with little mess (well, unless you gotta drill the holes out).
-you might also check the backing plates where the brake shoes rub as a lot of the old used plates have worn spots where the brake shoes rub agaist the backer. worn enough so the shoes drops into a small groove worn in. this means the shoes may not move out of the groove properly or may not retract properly so they are difficult or impossible to adjust correctly.
-curious, with the booster vac line unplugged and capped do the brakes stop the truck? have you done a vac check to see what you have for vacuum on the booster line at the booster?
-what master cylinder is being used? bore size, previous use (drum/drum, disc/drum, disc/disc). was the master cyl and booster a bolted together unit from a donor or a mismatched set that was not actually used yet as a set when bolted together? this goes back to LG's comment on correct set up of the pedal to booster pushrod adjustment, booster to master cyl pushrod adjustment etc. is there a combination valve or proportioning valve in the system? which brake line circuit is connected to which port on the master cyl? if you remove the reservoir cap and have a helper slowly step on the pedal while you look (safety glasses) at the fluid res, is there 2 little fountains or fluid that arise when the pedal is first stepped on? this little check quickly lets you see if the master cyl pistons are returning fully and allowing fluid to return to the res and also allow fluid to replenish the bore. the pistons retract back behind the bore ports so when the pedal is first pushed the pistons move forward and fluid is moved but it takes the path of least resistance, which is simply back into the res, until the pistons pass the port and start to push fluid down the brake lines. pressure in the system starts to build when the linings contact the drums and the pedal pressure is maintained.
-I would say do a few checks and then if the problem isn't obvious, like mismatched parts or out of adjustment then maybe pull the drums and see what you have to work with.

[dsraven]

the inspection holes for checking the lining thickness are usually around the 10 and 2 position if the wheel cylinder were to be at the 12 or 6 position. if you have no holes and are not sure if you should drill them them remove the drum and see where the spot is before you drill the holes out. this is so you dont accidently drill the hole where the shoes contact location is. wouldn't wanna mix that up.
there is always the google images where you can check a new backing plate that would show the inspection hole locations

[dsraven]

when adjusting drum brakes on a vehicle that has sat for awhile and possibly has rust on the drum surfaces it is best to first remove the drums and clean them up, check the wheel cylinders for obvious problems by pulling the rubber boot back and physically looking into the bore where the piston sits looking for leakage contamination rust etc, check the backing plates for wear at the shoe contact points (there is actually lube for those spots), check to ensure the park brake cables are operating properly and full release is happening, check the park brake lever on the shoes where it pivots to ensure it is not stuck or sticky and possibly lube that spot, check/ensure the park brake cable adjuster is operational, check/ensure the star adjuster wheel is free and the ratchet mechanism or spring that holds the star wheel in position is operational, check/ensure the springs are in good shape and not overstretched or mishaped. check the flex hoses to each wheel out front and the one from the frame down to the rear axle. check the steel lines from the master cylinder out to the wheel end for each wheel to ensure they are in good shape and no crush points or rusted spots that would affect operation, check the bar that connects the shoes to ensure it is located correctly and has the spring, check the brake shoe retainers for deformity and integrity.
at this point you could install 3 of the 4 drums and have a helper step on the pedal slightly (i say slightly so a full stroke isn't made which would possibly push the wheel cylinder pistons out of the bore) while you check for operation of the brake on the one with no drum. do this for each wheel. the wheel cylinders should push out on both ends of the cylinders but remember one spring is stronger than the other so it will want to push one out and allow the other to sit idle. if you try moving the brake shoes so the pistons are forced to move through the cylinder this will help you see if both the pistons are moving.
keep us [osted on what you find. pics are really helpful

[dsraven]

assuming all is good, parts wise, this is how I go about a drum brake adjustment. I assume I will get comments but this always works for me.
back off the park brake adjuster so that takes the park brake out of the equation. I do this because the brake shoes basically have 2 ends. one butts against the star wheel and the other end butts against the anchor pin at the wheel cylinder end. the shoes are not out and touching the drum until the star wheel is adjusted at the bottom, the park brake is applied or the service brake is applied. the star wheel only adusts that end of the shoe and the other end is adjusted by the park brake adjustment. a lot of guys think they can do without the park brake and these would be the guys that need to "pump the brakes" because the shoes get retracted back until they contact the anchor pin at the wheel cylinder end of the shoe. this makes the wheel cylinder pistons also retract fully which means when the brakes are applied the pedal does a full stroke but still doesn't supply enough fluid to push the shoes out enough to contact the drums at the wheel cylinder end.
anyway
with the park brake out of the picture I adjust the star wheel until the wheel is locked and won't turn. this ensures the shoes are fully out against the drum. then I back the star wheel off a number f clicks (count them) until the wheel will turn wioth only a slight drag from the shoes. I mean slight here, just a little noise no binding. now do the same on the other side and adjust the same number of clicks on the star wheel. let me also say you should make sure the star wheels are a set because some have a courser thread than others or may have a different number of points on the star portion. anyway. lock them, then back them off the same amount. this sets up the star wheel end of the brake shoe but the wheel cylinder end also need to be adjusted so the shoes are within limits and will contact the drums with a resonable amount of pedal stroke and fluid movement in the system. so, next adjust the park brake. adjusting the park brakeshould also not resu;t in a big brake drag. remember that a new set of shoes and drums will need to "wear in" so the arc of the shoe lining matches that of the drum inner diameter. this may take a bit of time and use. also, the new linings will need to be burnished (google that for a description) which basically means they need to get heated up with a few brake cycles so that the lining material can transfer onto the drum surface and smooth out the small imperfections and allow the linings to do their job properly. with that said, with new brakes you may need to do a few low speed stops in reverse to self adjust the shoes. some vehicles don't have the self adjust option so manual adjsutment may be required after the linings wear in to fit the drums etc.
so, to recap, loosen the park brake fully
adjust the star wheel tight, then back off until little or no drag. count the clicks as you go, do both sides the same. wheels should turn easily
adjust the park brake to allow a normal lever or pedal stroke for that system and also so little or no drag on the brakes with park brake released
adjust front brakes the same way except there is no park brake adjustment. this points out the need to have the lining wear within limits and also the drum diameter within limits. because there is no adjuster at the wheel cylinder end things need to be within manufacturers spec for the system to work properly and not require a lot of pedal stroke to get the linings out against the drum
now, with a service brake application, the pedal should have a decent height off the floor and should be firm, not spongy. if spongy try bleeding the brakes untiul clean fluid comes from each bleeder screw and no bubbles appear. personally I like the lisle "one man bleeder" as they seal pretty well against the bleeders screw and don't require 2 people to synchronize stepping/holding/opening/closing/releasing. when bleeding remember that the bleeder screw also becomes a leak point if unscrewed too much as they leak around the threads. the vacuum pump style bleeder is also a decent way to bleed brakes as well as the pressure bleeder that goes on the master cylinder in place of the cap.

[_Ogre]

someone a little over caffeinated?

[dsraven]

Ok, 4 cups is 1/2 a cup too much then?
Small cups........
Going out in the rain now, not complaining as Alberta is on fire right now. We need a week of solid rain to really wet down our forests and farm land.
End of rant, next page left intentionally blank. Lol.