47-55.1 S10 Frame Swap on 47-53 - Would you do it again?

[gigamanx]

Figure I should put my two cents in. I chose a donor S10 for mine. Stripped two trucks down to the frame to build one. I drove it to work as often as I could for a year.





Doing it again with the time invested in the swap, fabrication, and learning. Darn I was disappointed when I saw how little of the S10 was able to transfer over for my needs. I joked with friends that the only thing S10 was the transmission tunnel I cut out of the stock frame. I wish I had kept my decently working stock frame and started there. When the truck was finished, I had poured so much money in other places that the extra $$ to upgrade a stock frame would have been negligible. I falsely hoped I could steal most things from the S10 and convert them over...here's where it went wrong...

Decided I wanted a SBC350....so new wiring, new engine mounts, new lots of things that didn't convert over from the S10, New radiator.
Replaced brakes and front suspension because they were 1990's old and needed replacement anyway.
Converted from a two piece to a one piece drift shaft
Installed 4 link rear suspension to replace the stock leaf springs.
Seat didn't fit, steering column didn't fit, ordered new gauges as the stock ones looked like a hack job in an AD.
New wheels to fit the AD wheel wells.

Sure there are cheap ways to get around some of this, but when I did it to my version of "right" I kept wishing I had the stock frame under there and an IFS front.

with that being said...power steering and power brakes made driving a dream. Plenty of power for the highway and the comfort and safety of the stock. Having newer suspension front and rear made for a smooth ride for sure. IT comes down to what you want as an end product. If you just want a truck that looks cool and yuo don't care about the frills, S10 will get you there. If you're considering resale value, originality, street rod, show truck, I think you're better off keeping the frame stock.

[gigamanx]

Originally Posted by 28TudorAZ

I think it all depends on what you have and want to spend. I have about 15K into my project on the s10 frame. It drives great. I picked up a running s10 for $1300 and sold $500 worth of parts from it. I also sold the old frame for $400. So for about $400 I did have an s10 frame. I did spend a lot of time doing custom fabrication though. I think if I was to do it again in the interest of time I would have probably tried a custom front end and 4 link in the rear. But again I had an original frame that didn't seem like it was in that bad of shape. I would have spent some extra time on boxing it in though. As stated if you are going to use every piece then obviously the s10 is the cheaper way to go. I didnt use the engine or transmission, steering column, steering wheel, pedals so I spent more money. I also wasted about $500 on buying poor quality parts or switching to something else that seemed to work better. I also paid someone to do my wiring ($850) and he really didn't do a great job. Lots of stuff wrong. He wired my alternator wrong and burnt it up ($150). Lots of wires wrong. I probably am not much help. I do like the fact that I can go to any parts store and they have all of the parts I need in stock or at the local warehouse.

^^ This was my experience also!

Either way, if you're deciding to do it or not do it, they are great trucks to drive and get plenty of looks at the gas pump

[Nick_R_23]

Originally Posted by joedoh

IMG_5254 by Joe Doh, on Flickr

driving it feels like a normal modern truck. if you ever drove an old truck you know that lumbering, cumbersome feeling, that wallow and sway in the turns. this feels like driving a modern vehicle that you just start and go. I dont want to say uninvolving or underwhelming, more like just how you would treat a daily driver, without a second thought. the efi and overdrive helps this, and I spend a lot of time on ride height and interior comfort too.

my advice still is: mounting the body can be done in a long weekend. you dont need a mounting kit but some people like them because they have instructions and take away some of the chaos of planning. bolt on kits sell like hotcakes too, but I feel they are misleading because everything else will need some form of cutting or welding. on that note, lately I enjoy using ext cab s10 because they are more available and shortening the frame doesnt take long enough to be a big deal, you can get the wheelbase more exact that way too. but again, it takes cutting and welding. everything else beyond mounting the body will take months, at least.

That '49 is beautiful!

A modern feel is ideal. I love older cars and trucks, but the older I get, the less comfortable (and fun) something is to drive, the less I want to take it out. Turn-key, nice ride, comfortable handling, and good brakes go a long way to consistently enjoying a vehicle. I want to WANT to drive the truck all the time, not dread the handful it will be to drive. I also get why the pre-fab kits sell like hotcakes, because time is money and much of the guesswork is taken away. Is it always an ideal setup? Probably not, but when someone else does the hard work, that's sometimes worth paying for. Plus, it's a great option for those without access to the tools/space/etc for fabricating it themselves.

Originally Posted by gigamanx

Darn I was disappointed when I saw how little of the S10 was able to transfer over for my needs. I joked with friends that the only thing S10 was the transmission tunnel I cut out of the stock frame. I wish I had kept my decently working stock frame and started there. When the truck was finished, I had poured so much money in other places that the extra $$ to upgrade a stock frame would have been negligible. I falsely hoped I could steal most things from the S10 and convert them over...here's where it went wrong...

I've spent some time and read through quite a few of the build threads on here that feature S10 swaps, and that seems to be far too common of a theme. If I'm going to frame swap, I want to be able to use the entire chassis. The fact that the track width is a bit narrow, rear axle needs to be swapped right off the bat, significant sheet metal mods, etc, makes me wonder why this is such a popular platform to start from! I guess cheap and accessible.

I think my thoughts there are, if I'm going to be performing that much fabrication to begin with, I want to start off with a chassis that will more closely match the end result. I think once I get some time, I'll bring my Explorer frame over and pull my '49 body off, and mock up how well everything will line up. I know these work well for the F1 and F100 guys!

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by Nick_R_23

The fact that the track width is a bit narrow, rear axle needs to be swapped right off the bat, significant sheet metal mods, etc

I havent swapped an axle except on the 65, because the track width was 12 inches different. I used 22x10 rear wheels with 3" backspace on that one. I am not sure what significant sheetmetal mods you are expecting, I cut two windows in the lower splash pan and cut the bottom 8 inches off the core support. you will need to trim the inners for upper control arms no matter the setup.
also, what is the etc you refer to? if its pedals and column and brakes and fuel, you will do that no matter what chassis you have, stock, s10, explorer, you might just be trading the same work on different chassis.

Originally Posted by Nick_R_23

I think my thoughts there are, if I'm going to be performing that much fabrication to begin with, I want to start off with a chassis that will more closely match the end result. I think once I get some time, I'll bring my Explorer frame over and pull my '49 body off, and mock up how well everything will line up. I know these work well for the F1 and F100 guys!

like I said above, i think you might just be trading a new road running parallel to an old road, meaning the explorer frame might be the same fabrication in a different chassis. but I havent ever done or not done something based on what someone else thought either. when you start, take lots of pictures!


gigamanx why couldnt you use your column again? I just helped a guy with a MII/LS swapped stock frame and we actually put in a square body s10 column and brake pedal and booster and master cylinder. he even got an S10 bench seat for it!





I trimmed off the lower mount and used some exhaust pipe to make a new lower mount. worked great.

by the by, he is disappointed that for his investment he is not further along, he is at 22k, stamped steel MII arms, 4 link and coilovers on a camaro rear, no paint, no interior, no fuel system, no brakes, no wiring, and he still is spending. just ordered $400 worth of steering parts, the MII rack input shaft is well under the exhaust manifolds.

when I met him he said he wanted it running by summer. I told him he was lucky that summer came every year because it wasnt going to be THIS summer.


edit: as a matter of fact, I just remembered nics that I did over christmas, 3 weeks total, pedals column and frame from squarebody donor, mounted body bed running boards and bumpers. he brought both complete donors to my house, and my parts and labor didnt cost even what a MII setup cost. only small spacers on his wheels, no axle change. after selling his spares I bet he has less than $1000 in my work. he has some rust repair and glass repairto do but taht would have needed done anyway. he is an ls swap guru so I bet he can have it running and driving in a couple weeks when he gets to working on it.





this is why its important to identify what you want up front and not deviate from it. its like selling a project idea to your wife, you sell the bare minimum and then snowball it to what you REALLY WANT. the reason why peoples schedules and budgets go awry is that they fib to THEMSELVES, and say they can accept one thing when they have literally no intention to.

again, look at Husseys thread if you are trying to decide, his is a great example of setting the plan and the budget to get there.

[Nick_R_23]

Originally Posted by joedoh

I havent swapped an axle except on the 65, because the track width was 12 inches different. I used 22x10 rear wheels with 3" backspace on that one. I am not sure what significant sheetmetal mods you are expecting, I cut two windows in the lower splash pan and cut the bottom 8 inches off the core support. you will need to trim the inners for upper control arms no matter the setup.
also, what is the etc you refer to? if its pedals and column and brakes and fuel, you will do that no matter what chassis you have, stock, s10, explorer, you might just be trading the same work on different chassis.

like I said above, i think you might just be trading a new road running parallel to an old road, meaning the explorer frame might be the same fabrication in a different chassis. but I havent ever done or not done something based on what someone else thought either. when you start, take lots of pictures!

From what I’m reading, the S10’s 2WD axle is too narrow for the body, so either the axle needs to be swapped to a 4WD axle for a wider WMS, or the bed needs to be modified to fit the wheels further inboard. That leaves you with a narrow front end, which the solutions are custom A-arms, extreme offset wheels, or very wide spacers. I’d rather start out with a frame that puts the wheels out where they need to be with no changes.

Trimming inner fenders is fine (and I would imagine less is needed due to the rack and pinion vs the S10’s steering box), but I’m seeing builds completely redesign core supports, radiator housings, floor pans, and firewalls. I tend to prefer keeping the body and interior as stock as possible, although I do want to convert to hanging pedals. There will obviously be similar hurdles to overcome with either swap like you said, the more I look at these, the more I feel like I would be starting out further ahead with the Exploder chassis.

I went way down the rabbit hole with research last night, now I’m interested in doing a Vortec 4200 in it as well! I just can’t be normal!

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by layinrocker65

First thing you should do is not listen to someone who’s never done it before.

That makes no sense at all. You can't get advice on how to do it from someone who has never done it, but you can get advice from someone who has never done it on how they did without it.

I never had done a frame swap, but I have done a lot of similar things building cars and trucks and have learned one thing for sure, often you are simply swapping time, money and work from one to another, that is all you are doing.

Secondly, the number one thing to ask yourself "What are my expectations of my truck?" If your expectations is to pull a boat trailer on the weekends out to the lake, a frame swap may be a good way to go. Do you live on windy mountain roads that you drive every single day? Yep, what the heck, that frame swap may be a way to go. Are you driving it around town every few weekends to get togethers at the In and out burger, that frame swap is going to be a terrible waste of time, work and money.

First off, MOST of us would be just fine with a dropped axle from SIDS along with the drag link conversion and dropped springs. Done deal, it's lowered and it rides sweet. Or a Mustang II conversion, done deal, drives sweet. Being the rear of the frame is EXACTLY the same 1950 to 2005 S10, why do the whole frame when the front is all that changes?

There are SOOOOOOO many different ways to upgrade the stock frame, it makes way more sense to me. Now, have I done the S10 "swap", nope. But I have seen all that has to be changed and it just makes more sense to leave the stock frame to me.

This is all my advice, not calling anyone names or saying they are stupid or anything for using an S10 frame. We all see things different. My point is to think about it, what are your expectations, REAL expectations of your truck. I drove mine thousands upon thousands of miles with the stock brakes, axles and what not. Drove it every single day commuting in the SF bay area traffic. Drove it 95 mph in 14:50 seconds at the drags. Pulled a camp trailer occasionally, and it worked fine for me, never had the axle fly off doing down the highway or shake my teeth out of my head, it worked for me. And now on the rebuilt, a nice stock powder coated frame, dropped axle, modern springs, and I can't wait to drive it every single day again.

Brian

[Nick_R_23]

Originally Posted by MARTINSR

Secondly, the number one thing to ask yourself "What are my expectations of my truck?" If your expectations is to pull a boat trailer on the weekends out to the lake, a frame swap may be a good way to go. Do you live on windy mountain roads that you drive every single day? Yep, what the heck, that frame swap may be a way to go. Are you driving it around town every few weekends to get togethers at the In and out burger, that frame swap is going to be a terrible waste of time, work and money.

First off, MOST of us would be just fine with a dropped axle from SIDS along with the drag link conversion and dropped springs. Done deal, it's lowered and it rides sweet. Or a Mustang II conversion, done deal, drives sweet. Being the rear of the frame is EXACTLY the same 1950 to 2005 S10, why do the whole frame when the front is all that changes?

I have to say, I vastly disagree. I think everyone will tell you that the whole point of this hobby is to have fun. The heart of hot rodding is improving what you have with what you can, to make your car more enjoyable! I’ll tell a little story here. I’ve always loved any kind of old car, doesn’t matter what kind it is - hotrod, Classic, muscle car, customs, cruisers, or original restos - they’re all cool! But when I was around 22/23 years old, I picked up a 1948 Plymouth Special Deluxe that was ALL ORIGINAL. 6 volt electrical, 4 wheel non-self adjusting drum brakes, non-synchro trans, manual steering and brakes, I believe it did have IFS though. I thought it was the greatest thing ever! A true classic, exactly “how they used to be”. I knew it was exactly what I wanted to drive, “who needs all that fancy new crap?” I would say...until I daily drove it. It was fun at first, but that fun quickly wore off. It became a chore to drive. You had to pre-plan your stops wayyyy in advance, and god forbid an emergency stop was necessary. It wouldn’t do highway speeds, so merging, or even cruising on the highway would result in tailgating, or people passing dangerously. I live in a rather hilly area, so manipulating the clutch and 3 on the tree was a constant battle. The car had considerable bump steer, and loved to spontaneously attempt its own lane changes, which was made worse by the manual steering. Eventually, it was driven less and less, until it was reserved for Saturday nights, such as going to the movies or grab a burger in town, and eventually just parked completely. I ended up selling the car - not strictly because of the old tech, but because it was not fun to drive. I didn’t want to be in it.

If I could have this classic body on a brand new chassis with every modern feature, I would do it in a heartbeat. Comfortable, fun to drive, and classic looks? Sounds like perfection to me. Unfortunately, that’s not realistic or affordable for most people. That’s why the “retro” cars, such as the modern Camaros, Challengers, and Mustangs have sold so well - it’s a reminiscent of the classics that everyone used to enjoy, but with modern features that the majority of people can attain. That’s also why it’s popular to perform a frame swap, as you get quite a few upgrades in one go. Yes, they’re a lot of work, but I’d argue less work than bringing a 70 year old, under-engineered frame up to modern specs. Let’s face it, these were intended for 90 HP and 50 MPH. We far exceed that these days. Even dropping in a bone stock 5.3L on an original frame, is a 300% increase in power with no additional strength being added.

So in short, I think everybody builds their ride with the expectation that they want to have fun in it. The more comfortable it is to get in and go, the more likely I am spend more time behind the wheel. 1940’s-1950’s tech will not do that for me, and not for many others considering the overwhelming amount of modern engines, fuel injection, disc brakes, IFS, rear axle, suspension, steering, or complete frame upgrades out there.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by Nick_R_23

From what I’m reading, the S10’s 2WD axle is too narrow for the body, so either the axle needs to be swapped to a 4WD axle for a wider WMS, or the bed needs to be modified to fit the wheels further inboard. That leaves you with a narrow front end, which the solutions are custom A-arms, extreme offset wheels, or very wide spacers. I’d rather start out with a frame that puts the wheels out where they need to be with no changes.

Trimming inner fenders is fine (and I would imagine less is needed due to the rack and pinion vs the S10’s steering box), but I’m seeing builds completely redesign core supports, radiator housings, floor pans, and firewalls. I tend to prefer keeping the body and interior as stock as possible, although I do want to convert to hanging pedals. There will obviously be similar hurdles to overcome with either swap like you said, the more I look at these, the more I feel like I would be starting out further ahead with the Exploder chassis.

I went way down the rabbit hole with research last night, now I’m interested in doing a Vortec 4200 in it as well! I just can’t be normal!

I have done 5 ADs (6 if you count nics) and 3 other s10 swaps. the only one I changed the track width on with an axle swap and control arms was the 65 because it was way different, 6 inches per side. I have used spacers on a couple ADs, on others just higher offset wheels. have never needed extensive modification to the inners or the core support, although all needed a new core support mount. I have never touched a floor pan, or firewall (other than for the brake booster and to piece in the HVAC, but again, all upgrades will need the same), for a cab swap, and where I mount the body I have never needed more than a very small trans tunnel.

I am not disagreeing with your choice for the explorer frame, or a stock frame, or whatever frame. I would love to see how the explorer works out actually, a guy did an aviator chassis with an ad a couple years ago, his project is in the project section. just clearing up the common misconceptions. the amount of work changes with how high or low you mount the cab off the frame, the sweet spot is around 4.5", enough to get a good size radiator in.

this winter I will do a 56 chevy big window and I have decided to use a colorado frame on it, track width, inline engine, AWD. they only made two wheelbases for the colorado though so either will need the length changed.

Originally Posted by Nick_R_23

Comfortable, fun to drive, and classic looks? Sounds like perfection to me. Unfortunately, that’s not realistic or affordable for most people.

most of my trucks SELL between 13-18k. new suspension, HVAC, cruise control, new interior, new wheels and tires, EFI, auto/overdrive. I know guys IN THIS THREAD that have more than that in just the parts for their MII trucks, not counting their labor.

[Nick_R_23]

No worries, and that’s why I made this thread, to get the input from people who have been down that road. Experience is worth more than gold IMO! There is definitely a vast difference on how all these swaps are completed.

I think I’m going to try the Explorer route, as it looks like it works out excellent for the F1 and F100 guys, and I think it falls more in line with where I want the truck to end up. However, I do want to keep the full bed depth (unsure as of yet if I will keep the wood floors, or cut a metal floor from a newer bed to get more use out of the truck with less potential for damage), so how that ends up mounting on the frame may sway me in another direction. I’m okay with ending up at a “stock” ride height, but I don’t want 4x4 status, haha. Mocking things up will definitely be well documented and picture heavy when that time comes. Edit: Definitely in to see the Colorado swap done. I’ve briefly considered that, and the Trailblazer. They’re a little harder to come by around here unfortunately. Seems like a great platform.

That’s honestly a great deal for yours, but my reference was more towards the Roadster Shop, Art Morrison, or other pre-fab units (that accept a full C6 underpinnings, for example). Every bit of modern tech is built into those, but man do you pay out for them!

[layinrocker65]

I think the original question is being lost on the negative posters. He’s talking about doing an S10 swap vs upgrading the stock chassis. He clearly does not want to drive a stock truck.

What he wants is people’s opinion on how the swap worked out and if they would do it again. There is people here who wouldn’t do a s10 swap and that’s fine. But the constant negativity over something you have never done is pointless and not productive in this particular thread.

[layinrocker65]

Originally Posted by Nick_R_23

No worries, and that’s why I made this thread, to get the input from people who have been down that road. Experience is worth more than gold IMO! There is definitely a vast difference on how all these swaps are completed.

I think I’m going to try the Explorer route, as it looks like it works out excellent for the F1 and F100 guys, and I think it falls more in line with where I want the truck to end up. However, I do want to keep the full bed depth (unsure as of yet if I will keep the wood floors, or cut a metal floor from a newer bed to get more use out of the truck with less potential for damage), so how that ends up mounting on the frame may sway me in another direction. I’m okay with ending up at a “stock” ride height, but I don’t want 4x4 status, haha. Mocking things up will definitely be well documented and picture heavy when that time comes.

That’s honestly a great deal for yours, but my reference was more towards the Roadster Shop, Art Morrison, or other pre-fab units (that accept a full C6 underpinnings, for example). Every bit of modern tech is built into those, but man do you pay out for them!

I’ve done a Roadster Shop chassis on a first gen Camaro. It was so easy and straight forward. They really know what they are doing over there. Would love to have one for an AD

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by Nick_R_23

my reference was more towards the Roadster Shop, Art Morrison, or other pre-fab units (that accept a full C6 underpinnings, for example). Every bit of modern tech is built into those, but man do you pay out for them!

yeah there is a guy who ordered a frame for his task force, like 19k. DOUBLE GULP>

there was a guy who ordered a frame for his AD, too. dont remember the cost (it was a lot) but it came like 2 inches shorter. that sucked!

[Nick_R_23]

Originally Posted by layinrocker65

I think the original question is being lost on the negative posters. He’s talking about doing an S10 swap vs upgrading the stock chassis. He clearly does not want to drive a stock truck.

What he wants is people’s opinion on how the swap worked out and if they would do it again. There is people here who wouldn’t do a s10 swap and that’s fine. But the constant negativity over something you have never done is pointless and not productive in this particular thread.

Pretty much! Absolutely 0% interested in sticking with the stock 1949 suspension, steering, and drivetrain components. Sounds cool, but been down that route and it gets old QUICK. Upgrading the stock frame is on the table, but mostly comparing the cost/labor/complexity/how many "off the shelf" replaceable parts I would be able to retain, and the overall end result fun factor in going 'Upgraded Stock Frame' vs 'S10 Frame Swap' vs 'Taking A Different Route And Trying Something New'. Nothing wrong with any of those ways, I'd just like to see whats been done and if it's right for my build.

Originally Posted by joedoh

yeah there is a guy who ordered a frame for his task force, like 19k. DOUBLE GULP>

there was a guy who ordered a frame for his AD, too. dont remember the cost (it was a lot) but it came like 2 inches shorter. that sucked!

That would suck! I remember considering one pretty heavily when I had my 1957 Bel Air. Pretty much ran into the same deal - by the time the stock frame would be fully upgraded, it was at the cost of an aftermarket chassis. Luckily I sold the car and just paid off the house before I dumped 20K into that project!

[mongocanfly]

That was Scott that had the frame issues...http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=677979

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by Nick_R_23

I have to say, I vastly disagree. I think everyone will tell you that the whole point of this hobby is to have fun. The heart of hot rodding is improving what you have with what you can, to make your car more enjoyable! I’ll tell a little story here. I’ve always loved any kind of old car, doesn’t matter what kind it is - hotrod, Classic, muscle car, customs, cruisers, or original restos - they’re all cool! But when I was around 22/23 years old, I picked up a 1948 Plymouth Special Deluxe that was ALL ORIGINAL. 6 volt electrical, 4 wheel non-self adjusting drum brakes, non-synchro trans, manual steering and brakes, I believe it did have IFS though. I thought it was the greatest thing ever! A true classic, exactly “how they used to be”. I knew it was exactly what I wanted to drive, “who needs all that fancy new crap?” I would say...until I daily drove it. It was fun at first, but that fun quickly wore off. It became a chore to drive. You had to pre-plan your stops wayyyy in advance, and god forbid an emergency stop was necessary. It wouldn’t do highway speeds, so merging, or even cruising on the highway would result in tailgating, or people passing dangerously. I live in a rather hilly area, so manipulating the clutch and 3 on the tree was a constant battle. The car had considerable bump steer, and loved to spontaneously attempt its own lane changes, which was made worse by the manual steering. Eventually, it was driven less and less, until it was reserved for Saturday nights, such as going to the movies or grab a burger in town, and eventually just parked completely. I ended up selling the car - not strictly because of the old tech, but because it was not fun to drive. I didn’t want to be in it.

If I could have this classic body on a brand new chassis with every modern feature, I would do it in a heartbeat. Comfortable, fun to drive, and classic looks? Sounds like perfection to me. Unfortunately, that’s not realistic or affordable for most people. That’s why the “retro” cars, such as the modern Camaros, Challengers, and Mustangs have sold so well - it’s a reminiscent of the classics that everyone used to enjoy, but with modern features that the majority of people can attain. That’s also why it’s popular to perform a frame swap, as you get quite a few upgrades in one go. Yes, they’re a lot of work, but I’d argue less work than bringing a 70 year old, under-engineered frame up to modern specs. Let’s face it, these were intended for 90 HP and 50 MPH. We far exceed that these days. Even dropping in a bone stock 5.3L on an original frame, is a 300% increase in power with no additional strength being added.

So in short, I think everybody builds their ride with the expectation that they want to have fun in it. The more comfortable it is to get in and go, the more likely I am spend more time behind the wheel. 1940’s-1950’s tech will not do that for me, and not for many others considering the overwhelming amount of modern engines, fuel injection, disc brakes, IFS, rear axle, suspension, steering, or complete frame upgrades out there.

Yep, I hate "hot rods" and all those guys who cut up these trucks. LOL "negative posts" someone else said, HUH? I didn't do any beating or screaming I said THINK ABOUT IT that is all I said.

Yeah, damn it, those hotrodders, I chopped the top when I was 16, put a Mid Eng 401 Buick with the carb between the seats in it when I was 20, drove it like that for 15 years, tore it apart for a rebuild (that was stupid) now the top is chopped, the cab is sectioned it will have a 53 Corvette engine in it, yeah, f-ing hot rodders!

All I am saying is THINK ABOUT IT! Some of you who did the swap it was perfect for you, others that do it they made a mistake, never finished it or it was simply a waste of time and money and work because they didn't NEED it. I LOVE cars, I have driving to the drag strip with the headers uncapped and slicks on from my house in my 65 Buick Gran Sport that was SERIOUSLY set up for handling that I would drive it like it was a friggin Porsche through the winding mountain roads. I have also driven a stone stock 59 Rambler American with a flat head in it every single day to work (drum brakes and a single reservoir master cylinder, OH THE HORRORS) I have had a full on handling set up SHO Taurus I drove every day, I LOVE cars and hot rods.

But every mod isn't for everyone and I just said to THINK ABOUT IT, look at your expectations of the truck! I had done a Camaro clip on my truck and that was the plan. Then I drove a co-workers AD with a dropped axle and nice springs and such and was BLOWN AWAY at how nice it drove. I sold the clipped frame and got a stock one because it made more sense to me and my expectations of my truck.

All I am saying it think about it, it's not a MUST to, disc brakes are not a MUST do, IFS is not a MUST do, there are many ways to build your hot rod truck and have fun.

That is all I am saying. Geeeez


Brian

[Nick_R_23]

Originally Posted by MARTINSR

All I am saying is THINK ABOUT IT! Some of you who did the swap it was perfect for you, others that do it they made a mistake, never finished it or it was simply a waste of time and money and work because they didn't NEED it. I LOVE cars, I have driving to the drag strip with the headers uncapped and slicks on from my house in my 65 Buick Gran Sport that was SERIOUSLY set up for handling that I would drive it like it was a friggin Porsche through the winding mountain roads. I have also driven a stone stock 59 Rambler American with a flat head in it every single day to work (drum brakes and a single reservoir master cylinder, OH THE HORRORS) I have had a full on handling set up SHO Taurus I drove every day, I LOVE cars and hot rods.

But every mod isn't for everyone and I just said to THINK ABOUT IT, look at your expectations of the truck! I had done a Camaro clip on my truck and that was the plan. Then I drove a co-workers AD with a dropped axle and nice springs and such and was BLOWN AWAY at how nice it drove. I sold the clipped frame and got a stock one because it made more sense to me and my expectations of my truck.

All I am saying it think about it, it's not a MUST to, disc brakes are not a MUST do, IFS is not a MUST do, there are many ways to build your hot rod truck and have fun.

That is all I am saying. Geeeez


Brian

I don't want to come off as an ass, but I've already stated multiple times that this is not the route I want to take, so you're wasting your breath here. I'm glad you are happy with leaving everything alone under your cars, but I've not only thought about it, but experienced it. Aside from upgrading for comfort or for fun, I do not want 1940's components under a truck that I plan on driving at highway speeds. The technology worked for it's time, but it's 70+ years later. Speed limits are higher, roads are more populated, and new cars can stop at probably 1/4 of the distance of what this truck ever could. Modern cars can stop, start, turn, and maneuver much, much quicker than anything from this era. I'm not putting mine, a passengers', or another drivers' life at risk because I chose to build and operate a vehicle that is not equipped for modern conditions. So yes, in my eyes those things are a must do.

Also, there is no way that a Mid 60's GM Intermediate on slicks has handling anywhere near like a Porsche. I think your perception of handling and braking characteristics between classic and modern vehicles is completely skewed.

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by Nick_R_23

I don't want to come off as an ass, but I've already stated multiple times that this is not the route I want to take, so you're wasting your breath here. I'm glad you are happy with leaving everything alone under your cars, but I've not only thought about it, but experienced it. Aside from upgrading for comfort or for fun, I do not want 1940's components under a truck that I plan on driving at highway speeds. The technology worked for it's time, but it's 70+ years later. Speed limits are higher, roads are more populated, and new cars can stop at probably 1/4 of the distance of what this truck ever could. Modern cars can stop, start, turn, and maneuver much, much quicker than anything from this era. I'm not putting mine, a passengers', or another drivers' life at risk because I chose to build and operate a vehicle that is not equipped for modern conditions. So yes, in my eyes those things are a must do.

Also, there is no way that a Mid 60's GM Intermediate on slicks has handling anywhere near like a Porsche. I think your perception of handling and braking characteristics between classic and modern vehicles is completely skewed.

Honestly, you don't get it. But again, PLEASE I am not saying not to do it, I am not ONLY talking to you, others will read this thread too deciding on what to do. Please, don't take this as a battle, we are discussing this. Here with squiggly lines instead of face to face talking sometimes the MEANING is lost.

On the "modern highway" thing, I have for years studied stuff on my own. I am the kinda guy who goes "Hmmmmmm" and wants a real answer, not just an opinion or seeing what I want to see, you know what I mean? I have done many tests on painting, applying stuff wrong to see how far you can go before it fails, I have done welding tests, I just like going "hmmmmmm" and seeing where it goes. One day a number of years ago I got into "Hypermiling" where you drive for fuel economy. I was driving someone somewhere and they were freaking out about how much room I was leaving and how much room between me and the car in front of me telling me I was driving "too slow" that sort of thing. The next day I started a little study on the subject. I did a study driving the exact same way to work every day and back home. Starting a stop watch from when I turned the key on to when I turned it off, that simple. I didn't do this test for a day, I spent a month to get a REAL number of how long it took me to get to work or back home. I drove like I was before I started hypermiling, over the speed limit, pushing stop lights, changing lanes over and over, you know the stuff. I then spent a month hypermiling, driving under the speed limit, leaving a ton of room so you can coast more and stuff like that. You know what the difference was.....20 seconds. That was the average lost hypermiling, 20 seconds. And you know what that 20 seconds cost me, 20% in fuel economy!

I then drove my Rambler every single day for over 7 years. One and a quarter inch wide drum brakes with a single reservoir master cyl (oh the horrors) flathead motor, the whole thing, drove it every single day, had one VERY close call and I was blown away how fast I was able to stop, holy crap! Ever since that test I did, I leave a LOT more room, just cruise along enjoying the day.

Of course my Gran Sport with the slicks on it was for the drags so no, it didn't handle well. But it sure handled well with the street tires. "As good" as Porsche, no, I am exaggerating some, but I could take a freeway exit roundabout at over 55 MPH all the way round the whole thing! Yep, I have a buddy who has been a serious autocrosser 40 years and he was blown away at how good it handled, had big sway bars, urethane bushings, gas shocks, oh yeah, it handled.

The thing you have to remember is you are driving YOUR car on the road not all the others so it doesn't matter one bit what they do, you drive your car. I mean, a semi is out there on the road with you and they don't handle and stop like a new Camaro do they?

As I said, we are in my garage drinking a beer chatting, my radical chopped and sectioned truck is sitting there, I am into modifying stuff, I dig it, I am not screaming to leave every truck stock. I am just tossing out there for everyone to think about it.

Brian

[Nick_R_23]

No, I get it just fine. You don’t get that you are in a thread spamming an answer to a question that is not being asked. You also don’t seem to have any hands on experience with any vehicle newer than 1993, let alone anything that can actually handle and stop. Nobody here that is looking to frame swap or even subframe/clip their truck is looking for advice from someone who thinks 4 wheel drums are great, and whose research consists of “I didn’t get into an accident once” and admittedly engages in dangerous practices on the highway.

I am driving MY car on the road, but I share that road with countless others. I rely on others to keep their car in good operating condition to not be a hazard or dangerous, and I do my part my doing the same. Also, a semi truck has brakes about 16” in diameter and 7” wide, and are air actuated, and have a braking system engineered for the load and speed they are carrying. Quite a bit more stopping capability than you would imagine. My daily driver has brakes that work so well, you’d wonder how the seat belts are capable of taking that kind of force. It’s pretty stupid IMO to leave that to chance when the technology is inexpensive and easy to retrofit.

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by Nick_R_23

No, I get it just fine. You don’t get that you are in a thread spamming an answer to a question that is not being asked. You also don’t seem to have any hands on experience with any vehicle newer than 1993, let alone anything that can actually handle and stop. Nobody here that is looking to frame swap or even subframe/clip their truck is looking for advice from someone who thinks 4 wheel drums are great, and whose research consists of “I didn’t get into an accident once” and admittedly engages in dangerous practices on the highway.

I am driving MY car on the road, but I share that road with countless others. I rely on others to keep their car in good operating condition to not be a hazard or dangerous, and I do my part my doing the same. Also, a semi truck has brakes about 16” in diameter and 7” wide, and are air actuated, and have a braking system engineered for the load and speed they are carrying. Quite a bit more stopping capability than you would imagine. My daily driver has brakes that work so well, you’d wonder how the seat belts are capable of taking that kind of force. It’s pretty stupid IMO to leave that to chance when the technology is inexpensive and easy to retrofit.

So that semi can stop as fast as your 2015 Blazer?

Honestly I am saying things that are fact, not opinion. I have studied it, but I understand, it doesn't fit what everyone wants to think. It's like on the auto body forum if someone asks "How can I weld a windshield?" I am going to tell them not to weld the windshield, hope I don't look like a jerk.

Discussions like this are interesting, that's for sure. Did I mention (yeah about ten times) that I am not saying don't do it, I didn't say don't put discs, I didn't say don't do any of this, just for others who may read this, just think about it, what are your expectations of your truck, that's all. I sure enjoy driving these old cars.

And yes, I work on late model cars, hell, I LOVE them and what they can do. Yesterday I drove a little Chevy Volt, that little sucker is a hot rod, holy crap I dig electric cars! You have all the torque at zero RPM. The last shop I worked at was actually just a mile or so from the Tesla plant in Fremont Ca. I got to drive a few, holy crap the upper end ones would blow the ever loving doors off a stock 426 Hemi Charger, they are mind blowing fast. It's amazing how far we have came with that stuff.

Brian

[Nick_R_23]

Stop. You have come into this thread and solicited unwanted opinions that were the complete opposite of the purpose of this thread, even when I explicitly asked only for information from those with experience, and then derailed it with unrelated rambling. This is not the first thread you have done this in either. Please only continue to post in here once you have completed an S10 frame swap and can provide first hand insight with your experience.

To all others, thank you for your information! I'll be continuing to read through many of the build threads here and gather ideas.

[Rickysnickers]

Ok fellas, take it easy. Step back and take a breath

[MARTINSR]

Sorry,

Brian

[burnin oil]

Guys I have a question about this even though I don't have a dog in the hunt. Why not just graft the modern parts to a beefed up stock frame or build a new one? Pretty much everything I read about the S10 frame evolved the owner reworking it so why not move it over? I am really trying to understand the thought here. Also leafs are not exactly old tech. Ford super duties had them in the front into the 2000s and rode fine. Handling doesn't seem to be an issue either. I totally get 5.14 gears and no OD sucks on worn out 70 year parts but isn't this all kind of a rabbit hole to modernize?

On edit. The OP asked if people would do it again which means they are open to other avenues.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by burnin oil

Guys I have a question about this even though I don't have a dog in the hunt. Why not just graft the modern parts to a beefed up stock frame or build a new one?

cost. its always cost.

Originally Posted by burnin oil

Pretty much everything I read about the S10 frame involved the owner reworking it so why not move it over? I am really trying to understand the thought here.

you havent even read this thread if that is your takeaway. making a new frame is discussed, 19k. upgrading with a MII is discussed, ~2k (all in, sure you can lie and say you can get it cheaper but once you add steering and spindles and springs and brakes, at least 2k, and thats laying on the floor 2k, not installed yet).

if you are talking about adding an s10 clip to a stock frame, countless guys have done that with camaro clips. do a search for camaro clip and see what you think.

Originally Posted by burnin oil

Also leafs are not exactly old tech. Ford super duties had them in the front into the 2000s and rode fine. Handling doesn't seem to be an issue either.

rode "fine" for a super duty. handled "fine" for a super duty. a purpose built hauling truck. this is the same argument as when people say using box tubing 2 link rear suspensions are ok because NASCAR truck series uses them (no they dont), or that 60-72 chevy trucks use them (not even remotely the same). super duty ford leaf springs have hundreds of hours of engineering hours in them, and thousands of hours of road tests; to say that your 70 year old truck will have the same characteristics is shortsighted.

Originally Posted by burnin oil

On edit. The OP asked if people would do it again which means they are open to other avenues.

as he said responding to brian he was looking for opinions from guys who have done it. not opinions on what else is out there from people who havent.


I hope you finish your truck some day brian.

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by joedoh

cost. its always cost.



you havent even read this thread if that is your takeaway. making a new frame is discussed, 19k. upgrading with a MII is discussed, ~2k (all in, sure you can lie and say you can get it cheaper but once you add steering and spindles and springs and brakes, at least 2k, and thats laying on the floor 2k, not installed yet).

if you are talking about adding an s10 clip to a stock frame, countless guys have done that with camaro clips. do a search for camaro clip and see what you think.





rode "fine" for a super duty. handled "fine" for a super duty. a purpose built hauling truck. this is the same argument as when people say using box tubing 2 link rear suspensions are ok because NASCAR truck series uses them (no they dont), or that 60-72 chevy trucks use them (not even remotely the same). super duty ford leaf springs have hundreds of hours of engineering hours in them, and thousands of hours of road tests; to say that your 70 year old truck will have the same characteristics is shortsighted.





as he said responding to brians nonsensical "look at me" ranting, he was looking for opinions from guys who have done it. not opinions on what else is out there from people who havent.

I actually had this same argument with brian two years ago in 29tudors thread, this time I just thought I would let him burn himself out because doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is defined as crazy. I hope you finish your truck some day brian.

You really think it's a "look at me?" In my first post I make it clear that I am simply saying "what are YOUR expectations" to the person thinking about doing the swap that has became a "Must" apparently. I don't talk about me until someone says something personal that is against everything I said.

I have had guys PM me thanking me for talking them out of the "swap." I have had guys say they agreed, not that I changed their mind but they had done it before I said anything, that they looked at it more and were very happy they went in another direction.

All I am saying is to think about it, what is best for everyone is different. I have said the same thing about getting married and had a guy thank me very much that he broke up with his fiance! That blew me away!

I have NEVER said doing this swap is wrong, never said anyone is stupid for doing it, or they are "ruining" an old truck I simply say to look at it deeply as it's a BIG change and a BIG project and make sure it's right for you, that is all I say!

Geez, I wasn't going to comment again and here I go.

Brian