47-55.1 Battery charging issues

[dsraven]

also check your state of tune. plugs, cap, rotor, points, condenser, fuel filter, fuel age, carb and choke adjustments as well as what's in the float bowl, valve adjustments, compression readings dry and wet etc etc. if the engine cranks slow it may also flood easily and not be bringing the compression up to spec like a faster cranking engine might.
as mentioned earlier, maybe check the voltage regulator points as well. hitting it with 12v may not have been in it's best interest, so to say, as well as any other 6v items in the system. gauges, sending units etc.

[pvienneau]

Its starting right up now with cab light pulled.

[mr48chev]

It sounds like the light must have had pretty much a dead short in it. I'd have thought the wire would have burned up before the battery went dead though.

[my56chevytruck]

Originally Posted by pvienneau

Thanks, reading the manual and going through the steps. I'm confident I will find the root cause and fix it. Just sucks when you need the truck and it ****s the bed. What are your opinions on battery tenders?

I can't upload a photo but NAPA has a great charger/maintainer for around $35 that can be used for 6v or 12v systems. I keep mine on the batteries throughout the winter.

[pvienneau]

In conclusion, it was a short in the cab down light. I replaced the spark plugs as well and it made a huge difference starting the truck. The tips of each plug were completely caked in black when removed. Now she starts wicked easy.

[pvienneau]

Guys, specifically Mr48Chev, when I put the multimeter on battery (dc) while its running it reads 6.2. Is this good or bad? Thanks

[dsraven]

what is the voltage with no engine running?
max voltage would be about 6.9, after that the battery starts to boil off the water.
did you do the test with engine revved up or idling?
I would look for an increase in voltage from non running to running. give it a few minutes to make up for the juice it used to turn the starter when starting, then run the test. you could try turning on the accessories like lights and heater and see if it keeps up.
if you disconnect the battery from the system then you may need to polarize the generator.
here is a delco generator on a tractor where he shows how he did the reg wiring and polarizing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CRtUlgIgyU

here is a vid showing the delco gen on a tractor where she shows how to test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II-6nOw28J8
a generator is a generator. there is a field connection and an armature connection.
you may wanna check the brushes for length and tension against the armature and also the armature to see how the contact surface looks. also the contact points in the regulator to see how they look. poor connections at either will result in inconsistent or non existent charging. a generator shop could put the thing on a bench and test it but should also have the regulator so they can set the thing up for proper output. they would also put the armature on the "growler" to test for opens or grounds in the wiring on the armature but that requires disassembly so gonna cost you cashola. at that point it turns into a rebuild usually. maybe an upgrade to a 12v alternator if that is the case as you would get reliable output. also check and ensure there is a good positive and negative connections from the battery to the generator and volt regulator. that means good body grounds and a good engine ground as well as battery terminals and cabling. I have seen old cabling cause voltage drops which will affect the whole system.

here is a vid showing some generator explanations and testing you can do yourself. english car site but a generator is a generator
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjLW_eb3D-c

[JoeDude]

Nice read. I have the same problem as Pat. It starts right up, but shut it down, cranking is slightly slower and no start. There is no drain on battery after sitting for days. I have starter, generator, and carb rebuilt. I bought a thick negative ground wire. Red positive is original with truck as well as grounding strap. All were cleaned with wire brush. One odd thing, maybe unrelated, is when pointing timing light, timing mark is jumping up and down from the pointer on bell housing. Somewhere I read that one of the experts hates Pertronics electronic ignition...but I digress. I will do some of the tests (that this non-mechanic understands anyway).
Joe.

[dsraven]

joedude
assuming there is a load tested battery (that passed the test). all cables and connections are good and connect to clean bare metal not a painted surface, the battery terminals are removed & cleaned to shiny bare lead and/or brass, there is no/minimal voltage drop when cranking between the battery and the starter, state of engine tune is good (compression test, spark plugs clean and gapped, plug wires in good shape with no bulges or soft spots detected along their length and rubber boots at terminals are good, distributor cap & rotor clean and terminals good inside and out, points gapped and clean and a check with white business card through contacts will not leave a dirt trail on the card, condensor good, coil good with clean tower wire connection and no heat discoloration on the outside or carbon tracking on the bakelite insulation, ballast resistor good and connections are clean, nice blue spark given on a test for spark-both hot and cold engine, valve adjustment within specs, valve train checked for wear etc that could lead to variation of valve lash, fuel pump pressure and output tested fine-both hot and cold engine, fuel filter good, air filter clean, a check for vacuum leaks is good, heat riser operational and not sticking, exhaust system not squashed or restricted), etc.
when you say it starts right up I assume that is from a cold start up. then when hot it cranks slower and doesn't wanna start. when you say cranks slower, do you mean like a nearly dead battery kinda slow or do you mean slower because it isn't also trying to start at the same time for some reason, it's just cranking a dead engine? trying to start means it will crank faster because it is in the process of starting. maybe try a cold crank over with the coil wire grounded for comparison. have you done a voltage check at the battery and at the starter when it is hot? starter draw test when it is giving trouble?
another reason for a slower hot cranking would be a heat sunk starter, a starter that is dragging when it is hot or possibly a poor connection in the starter/solenoid switch compounded when the hot starter is calling for more amps. do you have a foot starter switch or an key or push button operated electric solenoid style? here is a link to the hot starter issue that may explain some stuff better
https://www.knowyourparts.com/techni...hot-heat-soak/

another reason for not wanting to start after it has been running already is because of boiling gas in the float bowl when you shut it off hot. sometimes an insulating gasket between the carb and manifold will fix this issue as it acts like a heat sink/insulator between the hot intake manifold and the carb base. remember the inline 6 has the intake and exhaust manifolds bolted to each other with a heat riser butterfly valve to warm the intake on cold starts/days. the engine heat plus the exhaust manifold heat are warming the intake manifold right under the carb so it is common for the truck to smell like gas after a hot shut down because the gas is evaporating in the smoking hot carb. basically the carb absorbs engine heat after shut down so the gas in the bowl boils and ends up in the intake manifold and evaporates-you can likely smell it when you get close to the truck or lift the hood after it has sat for a few minutes. the bowl ends up nearly empty so the fuel pump has to refill the carb. that takes a few revs so the starter cranks the engine while it is not trying to start due to no fuel. it makes it seem like the starter is dragging but if compared to a cold engine, that is also not trying to start, the rpm of the starter may be the same or close. that is why I suggest to ground the coil wire and crank it when it's cold for comparison. the other thing that goes along with this is that the fuel in the lines near the engine also gets hot and can pressure up due to expansion until the pressure overcomes the needle and seat in the carb. more fuel to evaporate and also more fuel to pump in order to fill the voids caused by evaporation.

https://www.hagerty.com/media/mainte...ake%20manifold.

https://axleaddict.com/auto-repair/W...-How-to-Fix-It

voltage drop testing-remember this is a 12v system so the allowable differences can be different than a 6v system. this will tell you if the connections and cables are conducting like they should be. if using the old style braided ground cable ensure it is clean for the entire length, no corrosion, and there is a good ground cable from the body to the engine/frame. I think the old stock cables grounded to the cab on some trucks if i remember correctly. task force units anyway.

https://www.aa1car.com/library/volta...ts%20or%20less.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0OtjG4bwJg

hope that helped somebody.

[JoeDude]

Thank you for that education.
All parts are new or rebuilt except that I don't know about the fuel pump, it came with the engine. Also, the voltage regulator is original with truck.
I think I can rule out the cold/hot issue. Engine will not restart no matter. The starter rotates the engine without trying to fire up. I do not have a gas tank installed yet so I am running a thinner than the metal gas line, hard plastic tube in a gas can (always making sure it's full). The other condition I have is I installed the Pertronix ignition. Someone mentioned that they are junk. Maybe that is why my timing mark is jumping up and down from the bell housing pointer. I did notice in the YouTube where the gal is starting up the tractor, it is cranking very slow (like mine sometimes) but fires right up and running. I also noticed if I work the starter too long, it gets so hot, I can't keep my hand on it (it was rebuilt recently).
Joe.

[dsraven]

Sounds like you have a few issues going on there at the same time. Maybe figure out your ignition and timing first, then possibly take the lid off your carb and look at your float Bowl level, then go from there. Have you pulled a spark plug to see what kind of spark you have? And is the spark plug wet?

[jocww]

maybe its your starter getting heat soak

[dsraven]

as a mechanic I have had jobs that came from another shop and they have done this or that and the problem still has not been resolved. sometimes tunnel vision can happen and we overlook something sorta obvious. usually I tell my customer that I have my own way of doing things and don't rely on the previous shop's results. I have worked with enough guys over the years to know that we all do things differently and can come up with different results with different people doing the same test on the same vehicle. with that said, it may be a good idea to start from scratch and do all the normal tune up checks and do them like you have never seen the truck before so you won't have any preconceived opinions and you will every test properly. I understand this is time consuming but in the end it may save you time and money on parts. start with a compression test. dry then wet. have a spare battery kicking around so you can have somewhat the same cranking speed. a 12v battery will not harm a 6v starter as long as you don't spend a long time cranking and let it cool off if it heats up. just ensure you do the same thing for all cylinders for each test. compression tests should be done on a warm engine but if you can't get it to start I guess that is out the window.

-mark and remove all the spark plug wires from the plugs, then remove the spark plugs and lay them on the bench in order so you can reference the soot/burn pattern, gap etc if required.
-disable the coil by removing the power wire from the coil or grounding the high tension lead well. if grounding the high tension lead ensure it can't come undone from it's ground and cause a spark as there is fuel closeby plus you don't wanna be the recipient of a random ground to person if things go awry
- tie the throttle and choke wide open
-ensure the wheels are blocked fore and aft and then place the transmission in neutral or park if automatic trans
-hook up a remote starter switch if there is an electrical starter solenoid type "start", figure out how to operate the starter linkage from under the hood for the old fashioned "step on the starter" style or have a friend assist with either scenario from inside the cab. this is usually the best method but sometimes (98% of the time) we work alone
-have a note pad ready with columns for cylinder numbers and corresponding columns for dry and wet tests for each. I usually have a long page so I can also track valve lash etc for each cylinder
-connect your compression tester and perform a dry compression test making sure to document your results right after each test is done so you don't get mixed up. crank the engine so each cylinder gets 5 tries to get to it's max number on the gauge. there is some controversy about how many cranks to give but if you give each cylinder 5 tries that should be sufficient. some will crank it until a max number is achieved whether that happens in 5 or 8 or whatever. just do the same for each cylinder. move on to the next cylinder and do the same until every cylinder is charted. should you have any cylinders that seem to be higher or lower than the rest redo the test on those cylinders and chart the results. should you have cylinders that seem to take considerably more cranking to get a max result then note that in the chart.
-when done do a wet test. that means you will squirt engine oil into each cylinder prior to each test. a hand operated oil can works best for this and you will want to test it out first soo you know how much oil is going in. then ensure to give each test the same amount of oil. squirt the oil in, install the compression tester, wait a second or 2 so the oil has a chance to make it's way around the piston and then do the test. again, do the same for each cylinder so time the "second or 2". chart the results right away and then remove the tester. place a rag over the spark plug hole and crank the engine so you can capture any oil that may spray out of the hole when you crank the engine for the next cylinder test. move on to the next cylinder, do the same, and so on until the wet test is complete for every cylinder
-now you can compare the results. the dry test should come up with all cylinders being somewhere in the correct pressure range, about 130 psi I think but don't quote me, and they should all be within 10% of each other or somewhere within about 10 psi since 10% of 130 is about 13. if you have a low cylinder that usually indicates worn or broken rings or a valve that isn't sealing well for some reason (possibly valve train wear, camshaft timing, bent pushrod, bad rocker arm etc) or something else that is allowing the pressure to bleed out. sometimes a bad head gasket or a hole in a piston. a higher than normal reading could indicate high carbon build up in the cylinder or possibly an exhaust valve that isn't operating properly so the air that is allowed to come into the cylinder has no way to get out. a cylinder that is "using oil", as indicated by a glance at the spark plug for that cylinder, may give false higher readings because it has excess oil in the cylinder that is helping to seal the rings. a bad valve seal or worn valve guides can also contribute to this extra oiling as well as plugged or insufficient crankcase venting
-next compare the results to the spark plugs. if you have a low cylinder check the plug to see how that cylinder was firing. the same goes for a high reading.
-if you come up with problems you can do a cylinder leak down test. sometimes i will simply air up a cylinder, held at top dead center on the compression stroke, so I can quickly tell if there is leakage through a valve. air up the cylinder using compressed air from the shop line through the spark plug hole (I have had to break an old spark plug and thread or weld in a pipe fitting to allow a valve and an airline fitting since I may not have that particular spark plug threaded adapter. do whatcha gotta do sometimes) and be aware that if the engine is not mechanically held at TDC then it may want to turn over when the air is added. then listen through the exhaust pipe and the carb for the sound of air leaking into that system. that sound would indicate leakage through that valve. air coming out of the adjacent cylinder's spark plug hole would indicate a blown head gasket or some other problem between these cylinders. air coming through the oil filler or crankcase venting system would indicate worn rings or a hole in a piston. bubbles in the rad would indicate a cracked cylinder, cracked cylinder head or head gasket issue. below there are a few links for some basic tests. the guys page also has many more tests and descriptions that you can peruse on your own time.
-next move on to doing the valve train check and lash check/adjustment. I always recommend charting this prior to and then again after any adjustments are made. you can compare results to those compression pressures and also the spark plug condition. check each rocker for wear where it contacts the valve stem and also where it pivots. while you are there check the pushrods for wear and being straight. check the area for signs of improper oiling etc. a rocker with a worn out contact area against the valve stem will be next to impossible to adjust properly and if the rocker is worn out on the pivot point then it also becomes hard to get a lasting adjustment. use your own discretion in these areas as it can be like opening a can of worms and sliding down the slope of "while i am here I might as well do the ...". soon an in-frame rebuild has been done. part of the valve train check also includes how much lash there is in the timing components. one way to quickly check this is to turn the engine one direction for 1/2 a turn at least and line up the timing mark pointer. this is so the gear train will be loaded one way and you will have a reference mark for how many degrees the crank turns in the next step. then remove the distributor cap and mark a position on the distributor housing that is inline with the rotor. sometimes a piece of tape works well for this. bridge the gap with tape stuck to both parts and then cut the tape in the gap or place tape on both parts and mark each with a line so you can tell if the rotor turns. next turn the engine slowly the opposite way that you did before while watching the distributor rotor. when the rotor is seen to move stop and check how many degrees the crank moved before the rotor, which is attached to the camshaft, moved. I understand there is also lash in the gears between the distributor and the camshaft but this is just to get a rough idea of the gear lash without removing a timing cover. when doing your valve lash adjustments the engine should also be cranked over a few turns while you check for all the rockers moving the same amount. a rocker that doesn't move the same as the rest would indicate a worn cam lobe. a valve that is protruding more than the rest would indicate a valve that has worn into the valve seat. also check for broken valve springs while you are there and the condition of the umbrella valve seals seen by peering through the coils of the springs. they should be complete and soft rubber.
-next check the ignition system for problems starting at the power source and moving through the system. sometimes there is a poor connection on the back of the ign switch that causes a voltage drop. sometimes it is a poor connection on the ballast resistor or the coil or the wire that goes through the distributor housing to the points. check the rotor, cap, wires, plugs for cracks, carbon tracing etc.
-next check the fuel system. do a pump pressure and output flow test. document the results. then check/replace the filter(s) and check the fuel cap vent and seal against the filler, check the tank outlet line for bends or kinks and follow the lines right up to the carb ensuring all is good with no tight restrictive bends, kinks or soft spots n the rubber components. pull the lid off the carb and check the float level and what is in the bottom of the bowl. check to ensure the accelerator squirter nozzle is aimed at the edge of the throttle butterfly valve and that the squirter is working properly. check for full throttle at the carb when the pedal is all the way down. full choke activation when the cable is pulled.
-next check for vacuum leaks. a smoker machine can be built easily with items normally found at home. you could google it. basically smoke is forced into the intake manifold at the carb end and the exhaust pipe is plugged. you check for smoke coming from any intake fittings, gaskets etc.
-check the exhaust heat riser for proper operation
-check the exhaust for tight bends or reasons for obstruction. the system can be checked for pressure build up while running by welding an o2 sensor bung into the pipe and using a vacuum/pressure gauge but, again, that takes time and money and an engine that runs. since there is no catalytic converter the only reason for restriction would be obvious pipe problems or a muffler problem. shake the muffler and listen for loose things rattling around inside.
-next check the battery. have it load tested after a full charge and some time to sit after. then check the starter draw or remove the starter and have it checked by a shop that has no history with the starter. since you say it heats up quickly there may be issues internally. just because it was rebuilt doesn't mean it was done correctly. there is no huge stockpile of used cores at the rebuild shops for the old stuff so it may be that there were some marginal parts that were re-used and, yes, it works but it may not be optimal. a hot starter usually means it has used a lot of amperage. possibly an internal reason for that if there is no external heat source like a bad connection or a tight, hard to turn engine.

here is a link to compression testing
https://dannysengineportal.com/compr...n-it-tell-you/

here is a link to leak down testing
https://dannysengineportal.com/how-t...hout-a-tester/

here is a link on how to do a vacuum test
https://dannysengineportal.com/vacuu...han-you-think/

fuel-air-compression-spark. all at the right time-BOOM. it runs.

hope something in there helped somebody. lol.
gotta go. I got a life off the computer apparently.

[dsraven]

shouldda mentioned. if a 12v battery isnt to be used to jump a 6v battery. the 6v battery won't like that much. I meant a 12v battery could be used BY ITSELF on a 6v starter for short duration starts. bear in mind that this will also affect other 6v stuff in the system. if doing this then take the rest of the truck electrical system out of the equation and only use the 12v battery for the starter part of the system. the starter solenoid or "step on the starter" switch will also have a wire that goes to the coil to supply battery voltage when cranking for a hotter start up spark.
sorry, I wasn't clear on that in the last post.