Project Goldilocks, '66 C10 SWB BBW Build

[theastronaut]

Originally Posted by jhrusk

have you called porterbuilt? They seem to be willing to buils specific items. Might be worth a call.

Haven't checked with PB. I do have a local machine/fab shop that would be up to the task, just picked up a pair of widened wheels from him yesterday.

[MalibuKasey]

Clever thinking!

[theastronaut]

Started planning the lower A-arm's layout on the shop floor. Need to figure out my ride height and tire size next so I can figure out how deep the air bag mount needs to be for it to be in it's proper range, and then I can figure out ball joint cup angles. The bag mount will actually be about 1/2" or 3/4" below normal so I can eventually use 1/8" aluminum plate spacers under the bag to fine tune the bag height/pressure at ride height. I'm probably going to swap to smaller bags since the D2600's are pretty tall at their minimum ride height (6"). I'd like for the rockers to be about 5" off the ground at ride height, and it'll be pushing it to get the D2600's to ride that low without collapsing them too much.

Also figured out how much the upper and lower ball joint needs to be moved forward to center the wheel in the fender opening, with 4 degrees more castor than stock (ending up around 7*). I wanted to push the wheel forward an inch, so the bottom ball joint has to go forward 1 3/8 and the top ball joint only moves forward 5/8". I'm pulling the ball joints inward 1" for more fender clearance with wider wheels; planning on running 18x10" or 20x10" up front with atleast 275 tread width. Shortening the arms 1" will also help with camber gain a little.


On to the CAD drawings... (Concrete And Dirt).

[pdxhall]

You'd better hope the floor doesn't move.

[theastronaut]

Originally Posted by pdxhall

You'd better hope the floor doesn't move.

I got it taped in place!

[duallyjams]

Looks like the x are wining in tic tac toe

[chevyrestoguy]

Very cool!
With all of the improvements and the dimensional changes you have in mind, those are going to be a trick set of control arms. Do you plan to modify an existing lower control arm, or do you plan to build a custom one? I'm thinking that you'll build a new design, probably out of steel plate. That's what I would do.

I have a buddy who builds ultra trick ($$) high end off road race vehicles, and he builds all of his own control arms and beams. Absolute works of art. I was over at his shop a while back and snapped a picture of some stuff he had just finished welding. "Just a couple of simple brackets and and some limiter strap tabs", he said.


I love fab work, and I'm really excited to see what you're going to come up with.

[mcbassin]

On to the CAD drawings... (Concrete And Dirt).

Just another reason I love your threads, always innovative ideas. Hey, if it works I'm all for it.

I have a buddy who builds ultra trick ($$) high end off road race vehicles, and he builds all of his own control arms and beams. Absolute works of art. I was over at his shop a while back and snapped a picture of some stuff he had just finished welding. "Just a couple of simple brackets and and some limiter strap tabs", he said.

Sorry to hijack, but dang that is some sweet tig welding. I sure would like to know what your friend's secret is to getting such clean welds on steel? Any more details about his shop?

[chevyrestoguy]

Mike's a pretty young guy (27 yrs old), but he's been welding since he was a teenager. Back when the Harley chopper scene was blowing up 10 years ago, he was getting his TIG training welding frames for Daytec, who also made frames for Atlas, Big Dog, and others. He always did mini trucks on the side, but moved on to hot rods and off-road stuff because he could show off his fabrication skills. As far as his secret, it's pretty basic. Use fresh, new clean metal whenever you can. I'm not sure what rods he likes to use, but he welds with a Miller Syncrowave, using a Miller torch head (water cooled, of course). I've been around lots of guys who Tig, and I like to watch their techniques. Some guys will light the arc and maintain a consistent foot pressure. Mike is constantly on and off the pedal, hitting it on every bead, like you do when you Tig weld aluminum. He gets in a good rhythm, and it shows in his bead spacing.

He's been doing a lot of double weave Tig'ing lately, I should get some pictures. Unreal.

here's his Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Exile...64332900248369

[theastronaut]

CPP hubs came in today. Just need rotors so I can make caliper brackets.

[mcbassin]

Originally Posted by theastronaut

CPP hubs came in today. Just need rotors so I can make caliper brackets.

I'm looking forward to watching that happen.

[Bomp]

Feel some excellent fabrication in the making.

[theastronaut]

Originally Posted by Bomp

Feel some excellent fabrication in the making.

I wish, might be awhile before I get back on the A-arms.

[groundbound64]

Subscribed

[theastronaut]

Ordered Cyro treated and slotted Stoptech's from Tire Rack but there's a 3-4 week wait before they'll be in stock. I like the look of slotted and drilled but drilled rotors will crack if they're used hard so that wouldn't work. OEM Caddy rotors were the same price but they have to be replaced every pad change, wasn't too thrilled about that. Stoptech has matching rear rotors available, and they should be more durable than oem parts. Also have to get the hubs fitted with 1/2" wheel studs and probably open up the rotors to fit the bigger studs too. Nothing on the front brakes are going to be out of the box parts at this point.

I hate that I'm not making any progress with the A-arms but I have been researching master cylinder bore sizes vs caliper piston area, pedal ratio, and pedal pressure vs pedal travel. I don't want a soft pedal; I can't stand getting in newer cars that stop with pedal travel instead of pedal pressure. Theres no pedal feel or feedback that way. I'll need to heel-toe downshift so a floppy/soft pedal won't let me keep steady pressure on the brakes while tipping the gas pedal with the same foot. Lots to consider to get it balanced front to back with a firm pedal but enough leverage with the bore size and pedal ratio to fully lock up the brakes without needing body-builder legs. I'm thinking that a good place to start is to measure how much pedal effort (in pounds) I'm comfortable with and see how much line pressure the calipers need to function properly. Been looking into Wilwood hanging pedal assemblies with triple master cylinders and an adjustable brake bias bar to tune the front/rear balance. Might be a tight fit to get it all under the dash.

[Bomp]

Might fit better with a bell crank set up. Are you planning on running stock gauges?

[theastronaut]

Originally Posted by Bomp

Might fit better with a bell crank set up. Are you planning on running stock gauges?

Stock gauges and column.

[zippeay]

Killer build! I used to Live in Sumter SC. I used to work with Mr Scrapes, he did most of the bags and hydro setups around there. Not sure if he's still around, I haven't been back there for almost 10 years...
Great job! I dig your motor! Here I thought I was being cool with a tripower haha!

[theastronaut]

Rotors came in today. I weighed everything except the pads and caliper brackets (don't have those yet) to compare to the old disc conversion stuff. Wasn't expecting the bigger brakes to be lighter, but they'll shave about five pounds off each side. Not much overall, but it's all unsprung weight so it makes a bigger difference.



12" Disc Conversion Parts:

• Spindle/Rotor Assembly- 55 pounds

• Caliper.- 10 pounds, 3.7 oz

65 Pounds, 3.7 oz each side.



New parts:

• Rotor 28 pounds, 4.0 oz

• Caliper 8 pounds 14.9 oz

• Hub 5 pounds, 2.0 oz

• Spindle 18 pounds, 0.9 oz

60 pounds, 5.8 oz

[theastronaut]

Got to work on 'Locks a little yesterday. Got the rack and pinion bolted in and set the frame rails on 4x4" tubing. I want that to be the normal ride height, maybe slightly more if it scrapes too much. The lowest point on my '64 VW is 2.75 and it rarely bottoms out so I think 4" will be plenty.




Mocked up the lower bag mount height with another 4x4" block, which leave the bag at 4.75". Is that compressed too much? The max compressed height is 2.8" aired out, but I can't find info on the minimum bag height at ride height.




Also built a stand to work on the caliper brackets. It looks like one of the bolt holes in the spindle will line up already, and I'll only have to make a bracket for the bottom holes.




I had to plug a leak in my sister's TBSS tire so while it was off I checked to see how well 20's with a decent size sidewall would fit... way too tall. I don't want rubber band sidewalls so it looks like I'll be doing 18's.




And speaking of wheels, I ran across this picture of CCW classics in the perfect color- brushed translucent bronze. They're three pieced forged so they're light and they're relatively inexpensive compared to most other three piece forged wheels. Can be built in just about any size/offset and they can make sure that they'll clear the calipers without using spacers.

[Bomp]

Originally Posted by theastronaut

Mocked up the lower bag mount height with another 4x4" block, which leave the bag at 4.75". Is that compressed too much? The max compressed height is 2.8" aired out, but I can't find info on the minimum bag height at ride height

Not to question your calculations on your build cause you got it going on Serious.
How much air pressure will you be needing to maintain the 4.75" height? Will it be too soft, too hard? If you take a corner aggressively will you suffer from body roll?
Depending on the driving situation, weight in the truck, freeway, in town, track, winding scenic road out in the country, that usually plays a big part in desired bag pressure. May have to adjust bag height to accomplish desired comfort in ride quality.


I have this info bookmarked from 67c10rustbucket: Info I refer back to now and again.

Originally Posted by 67c10rustbuket

generally everyone uses a (firestone) 2600# bags front and rear on a full size chevy, and firestone 2500# on front of an s10 or other mini w/ 2600# on the rear . some use 2500# all the way around on a mini so they can carry 1 extra bag instead of 2 different ones.
as for your truck i would use a 2600# firestone (re7 equivalent i think) for front and rear. on the front you want a bag that will put the suspension at full lift without stretching the bag. if you use a bag that only gives you 6" of lift without locking the front suspension up you will stretch the outboard side of the bag. example if you use a 2500# bag on the front of a full size truck you will get less lift but it will require higher pressure and the outboard side of the bag will be stretched and eventually rip or blow. if you think about it the inner side of the bag does not lift as far as the outer because its closer to the pivot point. and if you get a smaller bag that only lifts the front to 6" it will ride like your sitting on a brick at 6". you have to have a little extra up/down travel from your desired height to make a comfortable ride.
a smaller bag requires more pressure to lift than a larger bag. more volume uses less pressure, . in a full size truck your pressure to achieve desired ride height should be around 90-100 psi front and 40-50 psi rear depending on weight . assuming thats a small block, a big block would require more like 120+ psi to lift the front. also at full drop the bags should be fully compressed (3" i think between mounts cups whatever) if the bags are not fully compressed this will cause you to use excess pressure to lift the truck.
weight , bag volume, lift angle/position, all change the general psi of lift.
if you only want 6ish" in the rear it would be best to use over the axle mounts rather than in the stock spring location and the bags will last longer due to them being worked in a more direct up/down motion. in the stock spring location the will be inflated on an arch where the rear side of the bag will be lifting higher than the front.
I have used upper and lower "cups" but i prefer plates on the bottom that bolt to the control arm because the recess in the control arm does not have a consistent depth due to the shape of the coil spring. there will be a lower spot where the end of the coil must be clocked into so the recess is not flat in the bottom so the cups can wabble around. not to mention that when deflated the bag will squish out the sides (like a flat tire) so its nice to have a flat surface for it to squish on instead of a sharp edge of a cup (depending on the diameter of the cup).
another thing to think about most first timers mess up is the air bag may fit into the spring pocket just fine when its new and un-inflated but when you inflate it it will not only inflate up it will stretch outward so make sure you have close to 1/2 inch clearance around the bag to spring pocket. this is a huge problem on s10s.
I think most retailers websites list the specs of the bags they are selling i know i used to check them out as far as compressed height, full lift height, suggested ride height, bag material ply, weight lifting capacity, max psi, etc..
the truck looks awesome and theres nothing wrong with a big fat Z as long as its all aligned and welded properly. nice project !

I've read a few articles. Info you probably already know.
http://www.ridetech.com/info/pressur...eight-control/
http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.c...rod/prd131.htm
http://toplinehb.com/auto-repair/hig...ension-setups/

Not sure if any of this will help.
Sure do have a truck load of cool stuff going on.
Keep it up cause your build info is really helpful on my build.

[theastronaut]

Originally Posted by Bomp

Not to question your calculations on your build cause you got it going on Serious.
How much air pressure will you be needing to maintain the 4.75" height? Will it be too soft, too hard? If you take a corner aggressively will you suffer from body roll?
Depending on the driving situation, weight in the truck, freeway, in town, track, winding scenic road out in the country, that usually plays a big part in desired bag pressure. May have to adjust bag height to accomplish desired comfort in ride quality.


I have this info bookmarked from 67c10rustbucket: Info I refer back to now and again.



I've read a few articles. Info you probably already know.
http://www.ridetech.com/info/pressur...eight-control/
http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.c...rod/prd131.htm
http://toplinehb.com/auto-repair/hig...ension-setups/

Not sure if any of this will help.
Sure do have a truck load of cool stuff going on.
Keep it up cause your build info is really helpful on my build.

Those are the exact questions running through my head. I think the pressure will be too low since the bag will be pretty short at only 4.75", they'll go all the way up to about 12". I'm thinking that I'll need to cut and raise the upper mounting area 2-3" so the bag will be taller. Then I can add shims under the bag if I need to adjust the bag height/pressure at a certain ride height.

[likaroc13]

I'm no good for helping with the technical info, but I just wanted to say it's good to see you getting back on it.

[aggie91]

Everything I have read about ride height and air bags, is the bag should be set at a height that is in the middle of the stoke fo the bag.

If the bag has a 2.5" compressed height and the max extended height is 12", then the bag at ride height should be close to 8.375".

For a lot of the 2600# bags on the market that I have looked at, the ride height is between 6.5"-7.5".

[theastronaut]

Originally Posted by likaroc13

I'm no good for helping with the technical info, but I just wanted to say it's good to see you getting back on it.

Yeah it's good to be back on it!! We started working 4-10's so I have Fridays off now; Friday is Goldilocks day!

Originally Posted by aggie91

Everything I have read about ride height and air bags, is the bag should be set at a height that is in the middle of the stoke fo the bag.

If the bag has a 2.5" compressed height and the max extended height is 12", then the bag at ride height should be close to 8.375".

For a lot of the 2600# bags on the market that I have looked at, the ride height is between 6.5"-7.5".

The mounts I made today will put it right around 6.75".