Project: Recycle

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by watahyahknow

was there a spacer included in them , usually a piece of pipe in the right length pressed in the hole to prevent the bolt from aquishing the rubber too mush

No sleeve on these.

Originally, they're manufactured w/the bushings press fit to the stud (which was press/interference fit to the shock). The original rubber bushing ID was .500"; the stud OD was .625". The fit was so freakin' tight it basically compressed the bushing (increasing the density/area).

Unfortunately, there was no way to tighten them down in that configuration w/my Porterbuilt rear shock brackets. The shock studs need to be installed & torqued to spec, then the shock can be installed onto the stud.

These bushings are Prothane brand (polyurethane). The sleeve wouldn't be any different vs. the solid .625" stud/shank they're riding on & I tightened the hardware to the limit of the shank (the shank prevents over tightening of the bushings).

[SCOTI]

Got a couple of hours in today....

I picked up some new u-joints to pop into one of the extra d.shafts I had in storage. This allowed me to put an actual d.shaft in place to verify dimensions between the d.shaft & x-member hoop.

As figured, I couldn't install the d.shaft @ ride height because of the interference. So I cut the top of the ECE T/A x-members hoop off & installed the d.shaft. I air'd the truck out & put a yardstick spacer on the d.shaft & set the cut off piece on top to take my measurements. Tape measure said 1" so I cut some 1" x 3.5" x .250" pieces to raise the hoop. Everything is taped in place & ready for the next 'shopportunity' .

I documented some data @ ride height to get the driveline angles correct:
Trans output shaft @ 4.7° down
Rear pinion @ .6° up
D.shaft @ 2.6° up from trans to pinion

Now I need to figure out what gets moved (& how much) to get everything in sync.

[lolife99]

SCOTI,... is the rear pinion only .6 degrees up,... or 6 degrees up?

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by lolife99

SCOTI,... is the rear pinion only .6 degrees up,... or 6 degrees up?

.6°.... That's w/a 3° shim as well.

[lolife99]

What are you degree are you looking for at the pinion?
4-5 degrees up?

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by lolife99

What are you degree are you looking for at the pinion?
4-5 degrees up?

I'm looking for the correct 'opposite' of the trans. I have the ECE T/A mounts flipped. The rest has to be adjusted w/the rear end & the truck-arms. I used the 3° shims but that goes to show how much things can be off regarding pinion angle....

If I didn't already have the ECE set-up, I would have used PB's x-member. But, I knew going into it that I might need to modify things so it didn't make sense to spend the extra $$......

[bubba327]

Where are you getting your shims??? Maybe I better be checking the angles of my set up while I have my new rear axle still kinda loosely installed

[daverod]

Summit sells them. They ship fast

[lolife99]

http://www.stockcarproducts.com/trkarm1.htm

[aggie91]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

Viola....

Scoti - Looking good and making good progress. In your first picture on post 574, look at the bolt in the top right side of the cross member behind the notch/rearend. It looks like in is not completely tight. Looks like in the picture, the top lock washer is not completly flattened from tightening. Don't want you to miss any details since your doing such an outstanding job paying attension to the details...

So, are you going to make it to the March Goodguys at TMS?

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by aggie91

Scoti - Looking good and making good progress. In your first picture on post 574, look at the bolt in the top right side of the cross member behind the notch/rearend. It looks like in is not completely tight. Looks like in the picture, the top lock washer is not completly flattened from tightening. Don't want you to miss any details since your doing such an outstanding job paying attension to the details...

So, are you going to make it to the March Goodguys at TMS?

The Panhard bar x-member & the end of the frame x-member are not tightened up yet since I still have to navigate some fuel line through there. Thanks for looking out for me though!

GG's March? I'm trying....

[ratty 46]

I just got finished RE-reading your build process/progress .... I'm still impressed with the "plan" that you've been staying to.

I can not wait to see all the parts joined up.

Ratty 46

[SCOTI]

Thank you sir!

[SCOTI]

Alright, we got a couple more hours tonight....

I readily admit, my past projects have been drop & go w/o verifying the driveline angles. They were all mainly 1:1 final drive ratios so vibration wasn't an issue. I never had any issues to be honest & I've lowered almost every vehicle I've owned (GM trucks, ElCamino's, Malibus, Camaros, & 1 x-DPS Mustang).

This time I'm trying to improve. I'm also running a 700r4 & understand the driveline angles become that much more critical for vibration free operation. So, I've been digging for info on driveline set-ups. What's correct, what's possible, 1pc, 2pc w/carrier, single u-joint, dbl CV joint, etc, etc.....

From what I understand, the angles @ each end of a 1pc d.shaft set-up should equal each other. I understand this as 3.0° @ the trans suggests I need 3.0° @ the rear end. Anyone want to confirm/correct this?

My reading also suggests these amounts/degrees @ each end of the shaft are to help cancel out the ocillation that occurs as the joint spins (speeding up & slowing down the shaft as it turns). By keeping the amounts similar, they help cancel each other out. Zero is not good either as the needle bearings won't lubricate/wear properly.... minimal (1-2°) difference is desired. Again, anyone that knows this stuff want to confirm/correct this? If these statements are correct, it shouldn't matter whether the pinion is up or down, as long as the degree amount is similar.... Right??

Hoping this is correct, I played around w/the heights until I could yield similar numbers (@ ride height). By slightly raising the trans tailshaft, I was able to achieve 4.2° @ the output shaft. We removed the T/A shims to see what the OE settings would be & had 2.2° @ the d.shaft (sloped up from the trans to the pinion) & I was now 2.0° down @ the pinion.

I then swapped in some 2.5° shims & the new numbers were 4.2° @ the trans output, 1.6° @ driveshaft (again, uphill), & 4.5° down @ the pinion. The 4.5° @ the pinion is on the edge of acceptability from what I've read for a 'street vehicle'; the downside being increased wear on the u-joints. The plus side seems to be as the torque is transferred to the housing, I should remain within my 2° window.

This I can live with. This also reduces the amount the hoop must be raised by .500".

Allright experts..... chime in .

[watahyahknow]

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/ do a search around here , these guys calculate suspensions using cadcam , there prolly able to tell you more about solutions than any of us here

[SCOTI]

Here's some feedback I received on Lateral-g:

youre concerned about working angles (WA). the WA is a combination of both sides of the angle. so, if your ds was at 0* and your tranny at 2* you have a 2* WA. you want both of your WA's as close to 1* as possible, but not under (needle bearing issue you described). you also want both WA's no more than .5* different from each other. some will say 2-3* difference is ok, but like you said they help to cancel each other out.

if you really want it set up correct, dont fall into the camp that says "equal and opposite" when discussing the tranny and pinion. although that way will set it up correct 90%+ of the time it only takes a little time to measure your WA's and do it the best way possible.

It seems spacial concerns will hamper many targeting this 'ideal' range (not just those of us w/these trucks). I wonder what the 'failure' is if working angles cannot achieve that target range (as close to 1° as possible)? The GM tech-spec info I received from my buddy last night (he works @ a GM dealership) indicates up to 4° WA is acceptable but not to exceed that range.

I did some additional reading of that GM 'tech-spec' @ lunch & it stated: To calculate the working angle of each intersection, subtract the smaller number from the larger to obtain the working angle. So my set-up would yield 2.6° WA @ the trans & 2.9° WA @ the pinion. These are within the .5° range of each other to be optimum. It would seem I can leave things as is, or use a dbl CV style joint @ the trans & remove the pinion shim to put me closer to @ 2° down.

I think....

[watahyahknow]

im getting a headacke.........i think

[aggie91]

Scoti

What you wrote above about your angles is correct and what you found about working angles needing to be 1 degree is also correct from what I learned at the driveline shop and from my research.

if you imagine that your trans tail shaft yoke and your pinion yoke are level with each other (looking at the truck from the side, they are the same height from the ground), that would make your drive shaft at 0 degrees. The trans shaft should point down toward the rear and be at 1 degree from level. The pinion should point up toward the front and should be at 1 degree from level. THis puts the WA's at 1 degree for the ideal set up.

Since your trans and rear end are at different heights, you drive shaft is now at an angle, so your numbers should be fine. Your could mess with trying to raise or lower your trans mount to get your working angle closer to 1 degree and rotate your rear end housing to get that one closer too, but that might be a lot of trial and error to get correct. I have always used the equal and opposite as a general rule and have not had issues. I just set the trans output shaft and the pinion shaft parrallel to each other and that has worked for me.

[darkhorse970]

This is great information concerning the driveline angles. I might have just found the cause of my slight vibration at about 70 mph...I will measure my angles and see. Thanks.

[SCOTI]

Well, it seems running a 1pc shaft upward (from the trans to the pinion) is a no-go. Problems w/shuddering/vibrations upon take-off & hard acceleration.

I have to either raise the trans output shaft or go multi-shaft w/CV joints. I'm waiting on a quote now....

[SCOTI]

I've been talking (texting ) w/Mr. Porter throughout the night.

It seems my 2nd choice of 1pc shaft w/a CV joint @ the trans & a level pinion will work. I was waiting to get some feedback from the driveshaft rep but Nathan beat him to the punch. I had already ordered the 2° shims earlier today just in case this scenario was 'do-able'.

[SCOTI]

Well, the driveshaft joint isn't liking the 1pc shaft, CV joint, incline slope to the pinion set-up & feels it's a compromise. They feel the better alternative is raising the tailshaft so I'm @ 3° & dropping the pinion to the point of the d.shaft being level. I didn't get much time this weekend so I'll play w/the heights/angles some more this week.

The d.shaft builders feel the CV joints aren't a long term 'quality' alternative but more of a band-aid. I'm not a band-aid kind of car guy so I'll get more info/input from Nathan & them to work toward a solution.

I should have more shims in Mon/Tues for pinion adjustments. While messing around w/the driveline angles on Sat, I also finished painting the rear HD drums.

[SCOTI]

I got a few hours today & played around w/the angles..... again. What I wound up w/was 2.5° down @ the drivetrain/trans output shaft, .8° down @ the d.shaft, & 2.4° down @ the pinion. I feel this is going to be my best compromise.

The driveshaft places want 3° down @ the trans, level or <1° down @ the d.shaft, & 3° up on the pinion. That 3° up @ the pinion would require me to raise the trans/drivetrain a substantial amount within the chassis so that the trans output is higher than the pinion in order to achieve their 'targets'. I don't wish to raise the drivetrain any higher than it is & I certainly don't want to build an entire new floor.

I'm going to try the final angles I ended up w/today. If there are vibrations, I can do the dbl cardan/CV joint up front & raise the pinion close to level (<.5°) per PB's recommendation. Also during all this measuring, I realized my ride height was a little lower than what I originally thought it was. I've been saying it was 5.5" @ the front cab mounts & 6.25" @ the rears. I'm actually 1" lower @ each w/the lower a-arm bolt C/L @ 6" off the ground .

I went ahead & made some pieces to raise the ECE x-member hoop & got the materials to make the trans mount spacer. I'll get this stuff fabbed & hopefully welded up next week after work.

[protrash64]

If you mentioned this already, I didn't see it. Are all the angles supposed to be under load and not static?

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by protrash64

If you mentioned this already, I didn't see it. Are all the angles supposed to be under load and not static?

The angles should be w/full weight of vehicle on the suspension. I'm doing verifications @ the planned ride height on the ground (not suspended w/suspension extended).