Make it handle

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by Tony@AirRideTech

Dude..... Im comin and Im bringin the dually with me!

"I can't see $hit, can you?"

[Tony@AirRideTech]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

"I can't see $hit, can you?"

No problem son.... no problem....

[Rstone1]

Thanks for the responce. I'll be ordering a copy of the software next week. Just sold the 79 Blazer so back to the 68 and the 84 for now.

[Greywolf200]

Thanks for the your take on control arms and while on the front, what are your thoughts on the Ride Tech tall spindles? I think I've heard of using taller spindles to improve handling before, maybe Caprice for Camaros?

Thanks,

[Hotchkis]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

"I can't see $hit, can you?"

Hold onto your Lunch Box!

[SCOTI]

I remember the dually from the movie.... but I don't 'remember' the scene. Now I'm going to have to dig it up for a 'review'.

[robnolimit]

Wow, no response? Hmm, anyway, todays topic, Wheelbase long, short, modified, .... We had a long talk with a guy wanting to build a track killer C10 today. This truck may be the end of our riegn on the track, and it looks like we're going to build it. While a long bed or x-cab may ride a bit better, they have tougher time in the corners. Short beds, and or Blazers have the upper hand. Even so, a short bed at 115" is at a dis-advantage to the 106" Camaro, or the 104" Mustang. My Effie is 110 1/2". Remember too that it matters WHERE the wheel centers are. C10's are nose heavy, and the front wheel isn't centered in the wheel opening. Moving it forward helps with wieght balance and looks, but makes it 116 1/2" or so. My suggestion was, center up the front, then move the rear forward. How, well maybe, cut 4 1/4" off the front of the bed, then 2" off the back. It helps balance the look. move everything forward to get a 111"-112" wheelbase. We tried it in photoshop real quick, and it looks like you need a 2" chop to have a regular looking truck. My notes show an average ft wt of 57% for these trucks. Changing the wheel base, and pushing an aluminum LS back should bring it down close to 53% ('Bullit is 57%) I'm still looking for a 108" wheel base, but the cutomer is not so into moving the wheel openings around. This looks to be starting soon, I'll keep you posted.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

Wow, no response? Hmm, anyway, todays topic, Wheelbase long, short, modified, .... We had a long talk with a guy wanting to build a track killer C10 today. This truck may be the end of our riegn on the track, and it looks like we're going to build it. While a long bed or x-cab may ride a bit better, they have tougher time in the corners. Short beds, and or Blazers have the upper hand. Even so, a short bed at 115" is at a dis-advantage to the 106" Camaro, or the 104" Mustang. My Effie is 110 1/2". Remember too that it matters WHERE the wheel centers are. C10's are nose heavy, and the front wheel isn't centered in the wheel opening. Moving it forward helps with wieght balance and looks, but makes it 116 1/2" or so. My suggestion was, center up the front, then move the rear forward. How, well maybe, cut 4 1/4" off the front of the bed, then 2" off the back. It helps balance the look. move everything forward to get a 111"-112" wheelbase. We tried it in photoshop real quick, and it looks like you need a 2" chop to have a regular looking truck. My notes show an average ft wt of 57% for these trucks. Changing the wheel base, and pushing an aluminum LS back should bring it down close to 53% ('Bullit is 57%) I'm still looking for a 108" wheel base, but the cutomer is not so into moving the wheel openings around. This looks to be starting soon, I'll keep you posted.

I'd accept your challange if I had a bank accout that would match my enthusiasm level !

[Rstone1]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

Wow, no response? Hmm, anyway, todays topic, Wheelbase long, short, modified, .... We had a long talk with a guy wanting to build a track killer C10 today. This truck may be the end of our riegn on the track, and it looks like we're going to build it. While a long bed or x-cab may ride a bit better, they have tougher time in the corners. Short beds, and or Blazers have the upper hand. Even so, a short bed at 115" is at a dis-advantage to the 106" Camaro, or the 104" Mustang. My Effie is 110 1/2". Remember too that it matters WHERE the wheel centers are. C10's are nose heavy, and the front wheel isn't centered in the wheel opening. Moving it forward helps with wieght balance and looks, but makes it 116 1/2" or so. My suggestion was, center up the front, then move the rear forward. How, well maybe, cut 4 1/4" off the front of the bed, then 2" off the back. It helps balance the look. move everything forward to get a 111"-112" wheelbase. We tried it in photoshop real quick, and it looks like you need a 2" chop to have a regular looking truck. My notes show an average ft wt of 57% for these trucks

Changing the wheel base, and pushing an aluminum LS back should bring it
down close to 53% ('Bullit is 57%) I'm still looking for a 108" wheel base, but
the cutomer is not so into moving the wheel openings around. This looks to be
starting soon, I'll keep you posted.

This sounds like a really cool build. I'm really looking forward to see what you do. Will this be a clean slate build or use what's already there?
I really have no budget but I do have a 79 Blazer body and frame that I bought a few years ago with the intention of building an all out handling truck. I have all the fabrication skills just no money to buy the major parts. Plus as most of us I have to many projects (68 pickup, 84 Blazer to be my daily driver) no including the honey do list that's never ending.

Sorry no response on the ackerman I'm not sure I understand the benefits of messing with it?
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[Rstone1]

Ron I do have a question for you about king pin inclination on a spindle. What is a good number to shoot for if you were to build your own spindle. Seen alot of people starting to build there own lately.
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[bobbo]

Any ideas on a stock 69 C-10 alignment specs. We have specs on our alignment machine but I want to make sure they are optimum. I think they are using bias tires...What would be the best Camber, Caster, and Toe setting? Stock suspension.

[robnolimit]

Rstone1 This will be a scratch build. All we have at the moment is a cab, front sheetmetal, and some beat-up bed sides (I don't think we'll be using the sides in the long run). I'll start a seporate threat when we start this project, and post up everything I can). When it comes to 'pin inclination' it has to be balanced with the static caster. usually 7 - 9 deg. Lower numbers can have an advantage in the corners. If your thinking about it, get a copy of "suspension design pro" from autoware, it's easier to lay your plan out digitaly first.
Bobbo This biggest thing these trucks need is caster. See if you can get 4 to 5 deg + caster, with -1/2 deg camber. For cruisers/drivers, 1/8" toe in, for a sporty feel, try 1/8" toe out.
Scot D Hope to see you in Columbus!!!!

[danielhaskins336]

Hey rob, earlier in the thread you mentioned you where testing a bunch of arms and I was looking to replace my setup for better handling and was just wondering which ones you liked the best. Of coarse if you are developing some I may be inclined to wait. Also the bolt in rack kit, will it work with my lsx mounted on the front engine mount holes. All the engine work is done already and to move it back now would suck. Anyway thanks in advance for any time spent on these answers and sorry if you already covered them elsewhere
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[robnolimit]

Ha, i know it's been a while, but we're still testing. We asked several companies if they would send us sample arms, but most are not interested. I guess they don't want their 'secret' geometry to get out. Here's what I know so far.
RideTech Ball joint angles are good, clearance is good, Caster range is 5-8 deg. Wheel position is good, could have been moved a bit farther forward. These are they 'bag & shock, cool-ride' arms.
Hotchkis This is a coil spring and shock arm. Wheel position is good, fit is good, 6-9 deg. caster range.
P.O.L. We got these arms off of a customers truck, they are about 5 yrs old. These are a dropped arm for a coil spring and shock. Fit is good, wheel placement is stock. Caster range is 3-6 deg. Like many dropped arms, the spring pocket hangs down. This is fine for a mild drop truck, 3" to 4", but may be too low for trucks with more drop.
Porterbuilt The arms we checked were from a 'Dropmember' IFS. Bag & shock style. Fit is good. Caster range is 4-7 deg. ball joint angles are good, front wheel location is as close to perfect as it gets.
Brand-X We have a set of arms from an unknow source. These are the mass produced overseas arms that can be bought on the cheap. You get what you pay for. They are a clone of stock arms, with loose urathane bushings. the spring buckets are very low, and none of the other geometry is fixed. Caster range is 2-5 deg.

Caster range is checked with the crossmember at 1 deg of rake, and a -1/2 deg of camber. A truck with more rake in its stance will loose a deg. or two of caster. We are considering throwing our hat in the C-10 ring, but at this point we're thrashing on the J.T. to see what it really needs to make it right.
Your motor placement is OK for the new rack kit.

[danielhaskins336]

Hey rob, I was wondering at what degree of caster would you recommend changing to a rod end to the bottom of the spindle. And second what is your take on adjustable ball joints to help center the wheel on a c10 and to also help increase caster?
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[leftcoast66]

Congrats on the article in HotRod Mag Rob, the truck looks mean.

[robnolimit]

OK, I'm Back That was a long trip. 19 days, 4900 miles, 22 shop visits, 2 big shows, 1 second, 1 win, and 1 championship in the bag. Thanks to everyone for there hospitality. Greywolf the gain from the tall spindle is that it builds in a faster camber gain curve. Meaning that as the suspension compresses, it gains more camber than with the short spindle. I think that the geometry is a bit different, car vs truck, and I don't know of a tall truck spindle. I do however, know that circle track guys use the truck ball joints, and that they have 'tall' ball joints for trucks. Stay tuned for updates, this is a planned update on the JT, since it currently has used oem (still with the rivits) ball joints in it. We will run some laps as is, and then change only the upper bal joints, and run it as a comparison. We'll keep you posted. Daniel 7 to 8 deg caster is the range to be in, this in itself is not enough to flip the tie rod end. I don't know of any ball joints that can adjust to gain any caster. They can adjust ride hieght and camber gain, but not caster or wheel placement.

[Greywolf200]

[QUOTE=robnolimit;4797175][/B]Greywolf[/B] the gain from the tall spindle is that it builds in a faster camber gain curve.

Thanks for the info, that was what I was thinking. What caused me to ask was an item on Ridetech's website. Listed in their 1963-70 front suspension system (pt. no. 11340399) is a spindle which is 1 1/2" taller than a standard spindle. I couldn't find it listed separately anywhere and wasn't going to bother them unless the gains were worthwhile.

Thanks again,

[Greywolf200]

[quote=Greywolf200;4799441]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

[/B]Greywolf[/B] the gain from the tall spindle is that it builds in a faster camber gain curve.

Thanks for the info, that was what I was thinking. What caused me to ask was an item on Ridetech's website. Listed in their 1963-70 front suspension system (pt. no. 11340399) is a spindle which is 1 1/2" taller than a standard spindle. I couldn't find it listed separately anywhere and wasn't going to bother them unless the gains were worthwhile.

Thanks again,

Have you been able to learn anything about the tall spindles? Also, what was the final drop you got on JT? Enjoying the build in Street Trucks.

Thanks,

[robnolimit]

[quote=Greywolf200;4823623]

Originally Posted by Greywolf200

Have you been able to learn anything about the tall spindles? Also, what was the final drop you got on JT? Enjoying the build in Street Trucks.

Thanks,

Yes, the tall spindles are "A" body, not truck, so, they aren't much help for us in hauler-land.
The JT drop is as follows - Front crossmember is raised 1 1/2", I notched the bottom of the frame and pushed the whole think up, then I had to notch in to the top side for oilpan clearance. I still think this was easier than the 'sectioned' crossmember plan. Next was 2 1/2 drop spindles, we use McGauphy's, I already had these. Finally, a spring that gave a 2" drop. These are a 3/4 t spring with 1 coil cut off, appx 1000 lb/in. (I posted up the spring info earlier, don't have it in front of me here) So, about 6" total drop, but rides like it is 2"drop. - nice. Out back, I cheated big time. I cut a notch ib the rail behnd the cab, and raised the rear rail 4" over the axle, then back down for the bumper. This took four cuts to do. This mod raised the upper coil mount, shock mounts, and panhard mount. Then I flipped and raised the front trailing arm mounts as high as I could, appx 5" higher than stock position. With a 2" spring, and a 2" block, that is 8" total rear drop. It thinks it is a 2" drop as far as spring travel is concerned. We did use our new design rear shock mounts, panhard bar, and sway bars. I have no ground clearance problems, and it drives great. Soon we are going to switch the rear to air, we need it to carry pallets to powdercoat and such, the drop springs can't carry much load. lol

[65Short]

The JT drop is as follows - Front crossmember is raised 1 1/2", I notched the bottom of the frame and pushed the whole think up, then I had to notch in to the top side for oilpan clearance. I still think this was easier than the 'sectioned' crossmember plan.

Did you add anything to the top of the rail or box the section?

Thanks,
Jon

[Greywolf200]

[quote=robnolimit;4823820]

Originally Posted by Greywolf200

Yes, the tall spindles are "A" body, not truck, so, they aren't much help for us in hauler-land.
The JT drop is as follows - Front crossmember is raised 1 1/2", I notched the bottom of the frame and pushed the whole think up, then I had to notch in to the top side for oilpan clearance. I still think this was easier than the 'sectioned' crossmember plan. Next was 2 1/2 drop spindles, we use McGauphy's, I already had these. Finally, a spring that gave a 2" drop. These are a 3/4 t spring with 1 coil cut off, appx 1000 lb/in. (I posted up the spring info earlier, don't have it in front of me here) So, about 6" total drop, but rides like it is 2"drop. - nice. Out back, I cheated big time. I cut a notch ib the rail behnd the cab, and raised the rear rail 4" over the axle, then back down for the bumper. This took four cuts to do. This mod raised the upper coil mount, shock mounts, and panhard mount. Then I flipped and raised the front trailing arm mounts as high as I could, appx 5" higher than stock position. With a 2" spring, and a 2" block, that is 8" total rear drop. It thinks it is a 2" drop as far as spring travel is concerned. We did use our new design rear shock mounts, panhard bar, and sway bars. I have no ground clearance problems, and it drives great. Soon we are going to switch the rear to air, we need it to carry pallets to powdercoat and such, the drop springs can't carry much load. lol

WOW.....6/8.......Didn't realize you had gone that far. Will the details be in the Street Trucks series?

Thanks,

[robnolimit]

RACE REPORT Seams like I forgot to keep you all posted on the events of the last few weeks. July 1,2,3, was the GoodGuys in Des Moines Ia. This was the biggest autocross track ever seen at a GoodGuys event. We swapped the lead with Tyler Gibson and his 47 chevy most of friday and saturday, and, as we were predicting, shortley after lunch on saturday, Tyler put down a lap that was untouchable for us. We did our best to catch him, but to no avail. then, I rode in the mini-cab chevy for a lap, and he chopped another 4/10ths, in what felt like a ride in a shifter cart. Yes, Tylers chevy is fast, and yes, he beat us fair and square. He was there with three generations of gibson family members, and four cars competing, even mom Gibsons rag-top bug. A great bunch of people, and a well deserved win. Overall, trucks proved there worth, Tyler ran 6th and we were 9th overall, in a field of 74 competitors, no too shaby. Happy fourth to all.

[killerpickup]

Rob, this no doubt sounds basic to you, but Iam installing a ford 9 inch in my 79 chev shortbox, and Iam at a loss to figure out if I should center the housing in the frame or the pinion, it seems like I should keep everything in line, but I have heard that ford ofset there pinion on purpose to save on ujoints. HELP Lon.

[robnolimit]

No problem. You should center the housing, measure from the backing plate to the frame on each side. Make sure that you measure from the same place on each side, like a mirror image. Don't worry about the pinion being offset, the U-joints go side to side just as they go up and down. Centering off of the pinion may put the tires out to the left or right- not the look we're after.