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#1 |
Senior Member
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Location: Dandridge, Tn. USA
Posts: 2,226
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Re: Make it handle
"I can't see $hit, can you?"
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#2 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Huntingburg IN
Posts: 620
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Re: Make it handle
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#3 |
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Turlock, Ca
Posts: 29
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Thanks for the responce. I'll be ordering a copy of the software next week. Just sold the 79 Blazer so back to the 68 and the 84 for now.
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#4 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Mount Airy, NC
Posts: 132
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Re: Make it handle
Thanks for the your take on control arms and while on the front, what are your thoughts on the Ride Tech tall spindles? I think I've heard of using taller spindles to improve handling before, maybe Caprice for Camaros?
Thanks,
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Jack Byrd '70 Chev Custom SWB(new to me), 307CID(added Weiand Stealth, headers and Edelbrock Performer carb, up to 17 MPG now), 700R4 '76 Airstream Argosy MH(want a longer one), 454CID, TH400 |
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#5 |
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Santa Fe Springs, CA
Posts: 134
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Re: Make it handle
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#6 |
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: DALLAS,TX
Posts: 21,977
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Re: Make it handle
I remember the dually from the movie.... but I don't 'remember' the scene. Now I'm going to have to dig it up for a 'review'.
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67SWB-B.B.RetroRod 64SWB-Recycle 89CCDually-Driver/Tow Truck 99CCSWB Driver All Fleetsides @rattlecankustoms in IG Building a small, high rpm engine with the perfect bore, stroke and rod ratio is very impressive. It's like a highly skilled Morrocan sword fighter with a Damascus Steel Scimitar..... Cubic inches is like Indiana Jones with a cheap pistol. |
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#7 |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Dandridge, Tn. USA
Posts: 2,226
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Re: Make it handle
Wow, no response? Hmm, anyway, todays topic, Wheelbase long, short, modified, .... We had a long talk with a guy wanting to build a track killer C10 today. This truck may be the end of our riegn on the track, and it looks like we're going to build it. While a long bed or x-cab may ride a bit better, they have tougher time in the corners. Short beds, and or Blazers have the upper hand. Even so, a short bed at 115" is at a dis-advantage to the 106" Camaro, or the 104" Mustang. My Effie is 110 1/2". Remember too that it matters WHERE the wheel centers are. C10's are nose heavy, and the front wheel isn't centered in the wheel opening. Moving it forward helps with wieght balance and looks, but makes it 116 1/2" or so. My suggestion was, center up the front, then move the rear forward. How, well maybe, cut 4 1/4" off the front of the bed, then 2" off the back. It helps balance the look. move everything forward to get a 111"-112" wheelbase. We tried it in photoshop real quick, and it looks like you need a 2" chop to have a regular looking truck. My notes show an average ft wt of 57% for these trucks. Changing the wheel base, and pushing an aluminum LS back should bring it down close to 53% ('Bullit is 57%) I'm still looking for a 108" wheel base, but the cutomer is not so into moving the wheel openings around. This looks to be starting soon, I'll keep you posted.
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GoodGuys 2012 Pro-Truck Champion ![]() 2012 Truckin' Throwdown Champion GoodGuys 2011 National Champion ![]() 2011 Truckin' Throwdown Champion GoodGuys 2010 National Champion ![]() Proud to put our products up against all others! Last edited by robnolimit; 06-24-2011 at 09:52 PM. |
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#8 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: DALLAS,TX
Posts: 21,977
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Re: Make it handle
Quote:
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__________________
67SWB-B.B.RetroRod 64SWB-Recycle 89CCDually-Driver/Tow Truck 99CCSWB Driver All Fleetsides @rattlecankustoms in IG Building a small, high rpm engine with the perfect bore, stroke and rod ratio is very impressive. It's like a highly skilled Morrocan sword fighter with a Damascus Steel Scimitar..... Cubic inches is like Indiana Jones with a cheap pistol. |
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#9 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Turlock, Ca
Posts: 29
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Re: Make it handle
Quote:
I really have no budget but I do have a 79 Blazer body and frame that I bought a few years ago with the intention of building an all out handling truck. I have all the fabrication skills just no money to buy the major parts. Plus as most of us I have to many projects (68 pickup, 84 Blazer to be my daily driver) no including the honey do list that's never ending. Sorry no response on the ackerman I'm not sure I understand the benefits of messing with it? Posted via Mobile Device |
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#10 |
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Turlock, Ca
Posts: 29
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Re: Make it handle
Ron I do have a question for you about king pin inclination on a spindle. What is a good number to shoot for if you were to build your own spindle. Seen alot of people starting to build there own lately.
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#11 |
Droppin' It Like It's Hot!
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Battlefield, Missouri
Posts: 2,934
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Re: Make it handle
Any ideas on a stock 69 C-10 alignment specs. We have specs on our alignment machine but I want to make sure they are optimum. I think they are using bias tires...What would be the best Camber, Caster, and Toe setting? Stock suspension.
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Robert
Life Member RIP CAROL JANICE HARTMAN. BELOVED MOTHER. 01/04/53 - 03/05/09 1969 ![]() Norwood, MO 2007 Big Sandy, TN 2008 Had nothing to do with the forklift! Kirkwood, MO (Midwest Meet 2009) Midwest All Truck Nationals, KCMO - 2008 - 2009 - 2010 - 2012 - 2014 SUPPORT THE SITE HERE! |
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#12 |
Senior Member
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Location: Dandridge, Tn. USA
Posts: 2,226
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Re: Make it handle
Rstone1 This will be a scratch build. All we have at the moment is a cab, front sheetmetal, and some beat-up bed sides (I don't think we'll be using the sides in the long run). I'll start a seporate threat when we start this project, and post up everything I can). When it comes to 'pin inclination' it has to be balanced with the static caster. usually 7 - 9 deg. Lower numbers can have an advantage in the corners. If your thinking about it, get a copy of "suspension design pro" from autoware, it's easier to lay your plan out digitaly first.
Bobbo This biggest thing these trucks need is caster. See if you can get 4 to 5 deg + caster, with -1/2 deg camber. For cruisers/drivers, 1/8" toe in, for a sporty feel, try 1/8" toe out. Scot D Hope to see you in Columbus!!!!
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GoodGuys 2012 Pro-Truck Champion ![]() 2012 Truckin' Throwdown Champion GoodGuys 2011 National Champion ![]() 2011 Truckin' Throwdown Champion GoodGuys 2010 National Champion ![]() Proud to put our products up against all others! Last edited by robnolimit; 06-26-2011 at 03:00 PM. |
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#13 |
Registered User
![]() Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: arroyo grande ca.
Posts: 3
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Re: Make it handle
Hey rob, earlier in the thread you mentioned you where testing a bunch of arms and I was looking to replace my setup for better handling and was just wondering which ones you liked the best. Of coarse if you are developing some I may be inclined to wait. Also the bolt in rack kit, will it work with my lsx mounted on the front engine mount holes. All the engine work is done already and to move it back now would suck. Anyway thanks in advance for any time spent on these answers and sorry if you already covered them elsewhere
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#14 |
Senior Member
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Location: Dandridge, Tn. USA
Posts: 2,226
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Re: Make it handle
Ha, i know it's been a while, but we're still testing. We asked several companies if they would send us sample arms, but most are not interested. I guess they don't want their 'secret' geometry to get out. Here's what I know so far.
RideTech Ball joint angles are good, clearance is good, Caster range is 5-8 deg. Wheel position is good, could have been moved a bit farther forward. These are they 'bag & shock, cool-ride' arms. Hotchkis This is a coil spring and shock arm. Wheel position is good, fit is good, 6-9 deg. caster range. P.O.L. We got these arms off of a customers truck, they are about 5 yrs old. These are a dropped arm for a coil spring and shock. Fit is good, wheel placement is stock. Caster range is 3-6 deg. Like many dropped arms, the spring pocket hangs down. This is fine for a mild drop truck, 3" to 4", but may be too low for trucks with more drop. Porterbuilt The arms we checked were from a 'Dropmember' IFS. Bag & shock style. Fit is good. Caster range is 4-7 deg. ball joint angles are good, front wheel location is as close to perfect as it gets. Brand-X We have a set of arms from an unknow source. These are the mass produced overseas arms that can be bought on the cheap. You get what you pay for. They are a clone of stock arms, with loose urathane bushings. the spring buckets are very low, and none of the other geometry is fixed. Caster range is 2-5 deg. Caster range is checked with the crossmember at 1 deg of rake, and a -1/2 deg of camber. A truck with more rake in its stance will loose a deg. or two of caster. We are considering throwing our hat in the C-10 ring, but at this point we're thrashing on the J.T. to see what it really needs to make it right. Your motor placement is OK for the new rack kit.
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GoodGuys 2012 Pro-Truck Champion ![]() 2012 Truckin' Throwdown Champion GoodGuys 2011 National Champion ![]() 2011 Truckin' Throwdown Champion GoodGuys 2010 National Champion ![]() Proud to put our products up against all others! Last edited by robnolimit; 06-27-2011 at 03:32 PM. |
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#15 |
Registered User
![]() Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: arroyo grande ca.
Posts: 3
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Re: Make it handle
Hey rob, I was wondering at what degree of caster would you recommend changing to a rod end to the bottom of the spindle. And second what is your take on adjustable ball joints to help center the wheel on a c10 and to also help increase caster?
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#16 |
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Covington, WA
Posts: 770
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Re: Make it handle
Congrats on the article in HotRod Mag Rob, the truck looks mean.
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#17 |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Dandridge, Tn. USA
Posts: 2,226
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Re: Make it handle
OK, I'm Back That was a long trip. 19 days, 4900 miles, 22 shop visits, 2 big shows, 1 second, 1 win, and 1 championship in the bag. Thanks to everyone for there hospitality. Greywolf the gain from the tall spindle is that it builds in a faster camber gain curve. Meaning that as the suspension compresses, it gains more camber than with the short spindle. I think that the geometry is a bit different, car vs truck, and I don't know of a tall truck spindle. I do however, know that circle track guys use the truck ball joints, and that they have 'tall' ball joints for trucks. Stay tuned for updates, this is a planned update on the JT, since it currently has used oem (still with the rivits) ball joints in it. We will run some laps as is, and then change only the upper bal joints, and run it as a comparison. We'll keep you posted. Daniel 7 to 8 deg caster is the range to be in, this in itself is not enough to flip the tie rod end. I don't know of any ball joints that can adjust to gain any caster. They can adjust ride hieght and camber gain, but not caster or wheel placement.
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#18 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Mount Airy, NC
Posts: 132
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Re: Make it handle
[QUOTE=robnolimit;4797175][/B]Greywolf[/B] the gain from the tall spindle is that it builds in a faster camber gain curve.
Thanks for the info, that was what I was thinking. What caused me to ask was an item on Ridetech's website. Listed in their 1963-70 front suspension system (pt. no. 11340399) is a spindle which is 1 1/2" taller than a standard spindle. I couldn't find it listed separately anywhere and wasn't going to bother them unless the gains were worthwhile. Thanks again,
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Jack Byrd '70 Chev Custom SWB(new to me), 307CID(added Weiand Stealth, headers and Edelbrock Performer carb, up to 17 MPG now), 700R4 '76 Airstream Argosy MH(want a longer one), 454CID, TH400 |
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#19 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Mount Airy, NC
Posts: 132
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Re: Make it handle
[quote=Greywolf200;4799441]
Quote:
Thanks,
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Jack Byrd '70 Chev Custom SWB(new to me), 307CID(added Weiand Stealth, headers and Edelbrock Performer carb, up to 17 MPG now), 700R4 '76 Airstream Argosy MH(want a longer one), 454CID, TH400 |
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#20 | |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Dandridge, Tn. USA
Posts: 2,226
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Re: Make it handle
[quote=Greywolf200;4823623]
Quote:
The JT drop is as follows - Front crossmember is raised 1 1/2", I notched the bottom of the frame and pushed the whole think up, then I had to notch in to the top side for oilpan clearance. I still think this was easier than the 'sectioned' crossmember plan. Next was 2 1/2 drop spindles, we use McGauphy's, I already had these. Finally, a spring that gave a 2" drop. These are a 3/4 t spring with 1 coil cut off, appx 1000 lb/in. (I posted up the spring info earlier, don't have it in front of me here) So, about 6" total drop, but rides like it is 2"drop. - nice. Out back, I cheated big time. I cut a notch ib the rail behnd the cab, and raised the rear rail 4" over the axle, then back down for the bumper. This took four cuts to do. This mod raised the upper coil mount, shock mounts, and panhard mount. Then I flipped and raised the front trailing arm mounts as high as I could, appx 5" higher than stock position. With a 2" spring, and a 2" block, that is 8" total rear drop. It thinks it is a 2" drop as far as spring travel is concerned. We did use our new design rear shock mounts, panhard bar, and sway bars. I have no ground clearance problems, and it drives great. Soon we are going to switch the rear to air, we need it to carry pallets to powdercoat and such, the drop springs can't carry much load. lol
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#21 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Springfield, MO
Posts: 35
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Re: Make it handle
The JT drop is as follows - Front crossmember is raised 1 1/2", I notched the bottom of the frame and pushed the whole think up, then I had to notch in to the top side for oilpan clearance. I still think this was easier than the 'sectioned' crossmember plan.
Did you add anything to the top of the rail or box the section? Thanks, Jon |
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#22 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Mount Airy, NC
Posts: 132
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Re: Make it handle
[quote=robnolimit;4823820]
Quote:
Thanks,
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Jack Byrd '70 Chev Custom SWB(new to me), 307CID(added Weiand Stealth, headers and Edelbrock Performer carb, up to 17 MPG now), 700R4 '76 Airstream Argosy MH(want a longer one), 454CID, TH400 |
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#23 |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Dandridge, Tn. USA
Posts: 2,226
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Re: Make it handle
RACE REPORT Seams like I forgot to keep you all posted on the events of the last few weeks. July 1,2,3, was the GoodGuys in Des Moines Ia. This was the biggest autocross track ever seen at a GoodGuys event. We swapped the lead with Tyler Gibson and his 47 chevy most of friday and saturday, and, as we were predicting, shortley after lunch on saturday, Tyler put down a lap that was untouchable for us. We did our best to catch him, but to no avail. then, I rode in the mini-cab chevy for a lap, and he chopped another 4/10ths, in what felt like a ride in a shifter cart. Yes, Tylers chevy is fast, and yes, he beat us fair and square. He was there with three generations of gibson family members, and four cars competing, even mom Gibsons rag-top bug. A great bunch of people, and a well deserved win. Overall, trucks proved there worth, Tyler ran 6th and we were 9th overall, in a field of 74 competitors, no too shaby. Happy fourth to all.
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#24 |
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Seabeck WA.
Posts: 20
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Re: Make it handle
Rob, this no doubt sounds basic to you, but Iam installing a ford 9 inch in my 79 chev shortbox, and Iam at a loss to figure out if I should center the housing in the frame or the pinion, it seems like I should keep everything in line, but I have heard that ford ofset there pinion on purpose to save on ujoints. HELP Lon.
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#25 |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Dandridge, Tn. USA
Posts: 2,226
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Re: Make it handle
No problem. You should center the housing, measure from the backing plate to the frame on each side. Make sure that you measure from the same place on each side, like a mirror image. Don't worry about the pinion being offset, the U-joints go side to side just as they go up and down. Centering off of the pinion may put the tires out to the left or right- not the look we're after.
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