Tbi swap build thread

[critict1gc]

nope only had power on b1 i dont think i have it powered up properly

[cheepin]

This thread is great!I used it to get my '88 454TBI up and running in my crawler.Well ran it a few times and spun the mains.So I found a '88 350 TBI/700r4 combo with harness.Question is I would like to keep the current harness.What would have to be changed to run the 350?I know I would need to run the 350 throttle body or atleast the injectors.But will the comp run the smaller motor?

[Rifter_Chevy]

Quick question for the very smart people in this thread

Im trying to help out my insane friend who just dropped a 03 silverado cab onto a 79 blazer frame with a 89 TBI engine in it.

Im trying to make the TBI computer work, i dont care about VSS i dont care about check engine lights, data logging, diagnostic ports or ANY emissions related components. I literally just need it to power up and run the injectors.

So to accomplish this is all i need to do power the wire on pins B1 to battery power and A6 to switched power?

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by Rifter_Chevy

Quick question for the very smart people in this thread

Im trying to help out my insane friend who just dropped a 03 silverado cab onto a 79 blazer frame with a 89 TBI engine in it.

Im trying to make the TBI computer work, i dont care about VSS i dont care about check engine lights, data logging, diagnostic ports or ANY emissions related components. I literally just need it to power up and run the injectors.

So to accomplish this is all i need to do power the wire on pins B1 to battery power and A6 to switched power?

A6 to ignition hot
B1 to battery
C16 to battery
and Ignition Hot to injectors.

Make sure all ground lugs are connected and Ignition Hot +12 volts is present when ignition key is in run and crank position!

//RF

[mcbassin]

Originally Posted by rfmaster

Update
Over the Labor Day weekend I was able to score a sending unit and connector from 90 Olds during my JY trip that produced bunch of other parts. Last week I found a block of scrap aluminum which I drilled and tapped to accept 3/8" NPT sensor.

Test Jig



Next week, time permitting, I'll run some temperature curves against J-type thermocouple bolted near sensor (there are two 4-40 holes) using hot plate for temperatures between +25 and 125C and temperature chamber for -40 to +55C. Should be interesting.

Sensor is OE GM - part number ????
Yellow & black are used for ECM
Green and sensor body are used for instrument cluster gauge.

//RF

Originally Posted by rfmaster

Well, here are the results.

The OE 10096181 PCM/Gauge sending unit was tested from 22 to about 120C while mounted in AL block filled with antifreeze. J type thermocouple was bolted within 1/4" of the temperature sensor and recorded using laboratory grade thermometer. Both ECM sensor (yellow and black wires) and Instrument cluster (green wire and block ground) were measured concurrently and compared against published specifications for 12146312 CTS.



From the plots it is clear that the ECM output tracks GM published 12146312 spec very well.

The instrument cluster output characteristic is slightly different, but not by much.

However, as it stands, it would appear that 10096181 has a different Temp vs Resistance characteristic when compared to AC-Delco G1852 or Standard TS6 common GM gauge sending units used from mid 60's to late 70's trucks and cars:



The question is then can the cluster gauge bridge circuit be adapted to work with 10096181??? Stay tuned.

//RF

Man RF, You have been a busy fellow. That is some cool testing that you have going there! Anytime you need a fixture like that just give me a PM. I have a bunch of scrap laying around. What is the plan with this sensor?

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by mcbassin

Man RF, You have been a busy fellow. That is some cool testing that you have going there! Anytime you need a fixture like that just give me a PM. I have a bunch of scrap laying around. What is the plan with this sensor?

Thanks for the offer, I'll ping you if and when. Actually, I have being working on universal temperature gauge converter -translator. In other words if you have a characteristic for a temperature sending unit - i.e. Temp vs. resistance and resistance vs. indicated temp for the temperature gauge the two can be matched. This problem is applicable for all classic cars and trucks - gauges were not accurate and original sending units are no longer available.

I have several circuit ideas -that I'll prototype during winter. Also, the design must be simple enough for anyone to use.

//RF

[Rifter_Chevy]

Originally Posted by rfmaster

A6 to ignition hot
B1 to battery
C16 to battery
and Ignition Hot to injectors.

Make sure all ground lugs are connected and Ignition Hot +12 volts is present when ignition key is in run and crank position!

//RF

What do you mean by ignition hot to injectors? which pins are the injector pins on the harness?

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by Rifter_Chevy

What do you mean by ignition hot to injectors? which pins are the injector pins on the harness?

There are two wires that go to each injector. ECM controls injectors via Green & Blue (D14, D16) wire tied to each injector respectively, by 'pulling' these wires to ground. Inside ECM a special switching circuit switches on and off to complete the injector coil circuit. When it is closed the injector coil is energized and injector sprays fuel. When switching circuit is in its off position fuel injector is closed and no fuel is delivered. In electronics this is called a pulled down circuit. The Red & White wires (sometimes both are Red) are connected to IGN +12 volt source so that the injectors coil always has the +12 volts applied (when ignition is on). However, only when ECM commands that fuel must be delivered injector coils are energized. ECM varies duration and frequency of each injector 'spray' event so that the precise amount of fuel can be delivered to meet engine operational requirements.

The two IGN +12 injector wires (RED) are joined together and usually are 14 AWG wire. You'll have to buzz them out with the DVM to see where they in the harness.

//RF

[Rifter_Chevy]

Originally Posted by rfmaster

There are two wires that go to each injector. ECM controls injectors via Green & Blue (D14, D16) wire tied to each injector respectively, by 'pulling' these wires to ground. Inside ECM a special switching circuit switches on and off to complete the injector coil circuit. When it is closed the injector coil is energized and injector sprays fuel. When switching circuit is in its off position fuel injector is closed and no fuel is delivered. In electronics this is called a pulled down circuit. The Red & White wires (sometimes both are Red) are connected to IGN +12 volt source so that the injectors coil always has the +12 volts applied (when ignition is on). However, only when ECM commands that fuel must be delivered injector coils are energized. ECM varies duration and frequency of each injector 'spray' event so that the precise amount of fuel can be delivered to meet engine operational requirements.

The two IGN +12 injector wires (RED) are joined together and usually are 14 AWG wire. You'll have to buzz them out with the DVM to see where they in the harness.

//RF

So i could tie these injector wire into A6 and that would work fine?

[87Lowrider]

Stumbled on this thread tonight.. considering putting the TBI motor from my '87 SWB into my '57 Stepper... great thread.

[dju91001]

Ok. Im a newbie on this forum. Excuse me for jumping in here. I am doing a tbi swap on my 70 c10. The donor is a 92 caprice L03 305. Iam going to use the entire set up. The ecm is #16136965. Is it true that this unit needs to be flashed in order to work in this swap i am doing? Again excuse my interuption. It just seems like there is more help in this thread on this subject. Thanks

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by dju91001

Ok. Im a newbie on this forum. Excuse me for jumping in here. I am doing a tbi swap on my 70 c10. The donor is a 92 caprice L03 305. Iam going to use the entire set up. The ecm is #16136965. Is it true that this unit needs to be flashed in order to work in this swap i am doing? Again excuse my interuption. It just seems like there is more help in this thread on this subject. Thanks

It is difficult to say, but first things first. The '6965 uses 80's style UV erasable EPROM. It is not possible to 'Flash' - different type of ROM technology all together. If you are planning to use the complete LO3 setup from 92 Caprice - engine the only minor complication will be VSS. You may want to shed a light on the rest of your drivetrain.

Happy thanksgiving.
//RF

[dju91001]

Originally Posted by rfmaster

It is difficult to say, but first things first. The '6965 uses 80's style UV erasable EPROM. It is not possible to 'Flash' - different type of ROM technology all together. If you are planning to use the complete LO3 setup from 92 Caprice - engine the only minor complication will be VSS. You may want to shed a light on the rest of your drivetrain.

Happy thanksgiving.
//RF

I was under the impression due to an anti theft program or something in the ecm. If not, great! It should work. The rest of the drivetrain is 73-74 blazer with turbo 350. I know about the vss, the park neutral switch, and the detent cable. Going to use the caprice fuel cell with pump unit and lines. The schematics are all similar, so i've found. The cab and bed are 70 c10, just dropped onto a blazer chassis. Thanks

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by dju91001

I was under the impression due to an anti theft program or something in the ecm. If not, great! It should work. The rest of the drivetrain is 73-74 blazer with turbo 350. I know about the vss, the park neutral switch, and the detent cable. Going to use the caprice fuel cell with pump unit and lines. The schematics are all similar, so i've found. The cab and bed are 70 c10, just dropped onto a blazer chassis. Thanks

Yes, the 92 'may' have VATS anti-theft system. Check ECM I/O connector pin B6 which is input from VATS module. Two ways to get around it. First is to burn a new EPROM that disables this function. Requires some cash outlays for EPROM PCBA adapter, EPROM (or FLASH memory chip) and burning equipment or knowing someone to do it for you. Second approach is to build a 30 Hz pulse generator to provide 50% duty cycle pulse signal to pin B6. Once ECM sees this pulse signal during cranking it enables fuel injector driver circuits. Alternatively, find 1227747 ECM from 305 truck and use it as is - trucks did not have VATS system. The 7747 ECM will plug into Caprice harness and will work fine. I presume that you are going to omit AIR pump - it is only used during cold starts and later trucks did not have AIR system.

//RF

[dju91001]

Thanks. I better save myself some time/trouble and go ahead and obtain the 7747.

[MalibuSSwagon]

You guys rock. Saved me $75 on a JTR sensor.



There it is, the speed sensor hole.



Installed an 80's Malibu VSS I had lying around. Perfect.

The four wires coming off the VSS, My guesses are:

Brown - 2k signal to ECU
Blk/wht - ground
Pink/blk - Hot in run/start
Yellow - 2k signal to cruise

Yes or no? There isn't much info on retrofitting an optical VSS.

[MalibuSSwagon]

Hey gand, great thread, really helps me in my journey. I am currently working on a TPI swap for my 86 C10.

I am fairly certain I have the VSS figured out. Could someone confirm or deny. I was feeling around on the back of the cluster and felt a square hole right behind the speedo, seems that is where the optical VSS sensor mounts. Would this be true?

If so, how do I remove the cluster without breaking it? That was my biggest fear, as I am well aware how fragile this old GM plastic is!

[68 TT]

Originally Posted by MalibuSSwagon

Hey gand, great thread, really helps me in my journey. I am currently working on a TPI swap for my 86 C10.

I am fairly certain I have the VSS figured out. Could someone confirm or deny. I was feeling around on the back of the cluster and felt a square hole right behind the speedo, seems that is where the optical VSS sensor mounts. Would this be true?

If so, how do I remove the cluster without breaking it? That was my biggest fear, as I am well aware how fragile this old GM plastic is!

That is where the optical VSS goes. The only sure way to not break off the left hand tab is to pull the dash pad. The rest of the cluster housing is pretty tough.
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[65Guy]

Finally got mine running. cranked on the first try! Any way i i found a 4l60e how would i wire it to work with my comp? i dont have the number with me but i know it is from a 90 4.3 truck but my 350 runs fine with it stock.

[68 TT]

Originally Posted by 65Guy

Finally got mine running. cranked on the first try! Any way i i found a 4l60e how would i wire it to work with my comp? i dont have the number with me but i know it is from a 90 4.3 truck but my 350 runs fine with it stock.

Are you running your 350 with a 4.3 ECM? If so it should be reprogrammed for the right injector size & engine displacement. It is probably dangerously lean as is.
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[65Guy]

well i havent had the exhaust done yet but it seams to run good. but who knows.

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by 65Guy

well i havent had the exhaust done yet but it seams to run good. but who knows.

Just post the contents of the part number label attached to ECM cover - this should tell us the ECM family and calibration type. If it is missing remove the EPROM cover held down with two screws and note the four letter code on EPROM chip.

//RF

[BigBlocksRule]

That '90 model tranny is a 700R4, the 4L60E didn't appear until 1993.
Kudos on getting it running!

[65Guy]

16144288 atkn

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by 65Guy

16144288 atkn

BCC: ATKN
Year 1990
PROM Size 32724
ECM #16144288
Program ID: 160 ($A0)
Product Line: C1/K1/P1
Engine: LB4 4.3L
Transmission MD8 AUTO (700R4)

This ECM was specifically developed for V6 application. ECM will run V8, but limp mode will not work and calibration is off for a typical V8. However, you can modify VE and SA tables together with larger injectors. As is good enough to start your motor, but as for driving - very iffy.

//RF