Intro from an old Assembly Plant guy

[Squareforceone]

Well happy birthday to red and your son Joseph

[Hulk Will Smash]

Happy birthday to your truck and your son (my boy's b-day was Sunday)!

Quick question... We're these trucks designed with "crumple zones" like modern cars?

I've noticed a couple of things when these trucks get wadded up... Lots of damage and less injuries. Back in 1990, I hit a dodge box van that blew a stop sign at about 50 with my first square ('77 C20 crew) and absolutely destroyed both trucks but walked away without a scratch. All the recent wreck threads got me thinking about it again.
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[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Hulk Will Smash

Happy birthday to your truck and your son (my boy's b-day was Sunday)!

Quick question... We're these trucks designed with "crumple zones" like modern cars?

I've noticed a couple of things when these trucks get wadded up... Lots of damage and less injuries. Back in 1990, I hit a dodge box van that blew a stop sign at about 50 with my first square ('77 C20 crew) and absolutely destroyed both trucks but walked away without a scratch. All the recent wreck threads got me thinking about it again.
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Not so much. The front frame horns and bumpers and bracketry are all pretty rigid. We spent a lot of time on the GMT800 and the 2003 mid cycle enhancement to get those bumpers and frames to crush in a linear fashion but not on the R/V trucks.

The only caveat would be the "fuse" in the hinge, which when coupled with the bolt at the base of the windshield allows the hood to bend in the middle. I don't recall if there are comparable zones in the front fenders.

K

[Hulk Will Smash]

Thanks! Seemed like pretty progressive thinking for the late 60s and early 70s if so. I'll take it as dumb luck and knock on wood again!
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[tylervalo]

You bought up in another thread that the vent windows made noise even when new, what other issues or problems did these truck have brand new that would never be allowed today?

[J Knight]

Hey Keith, I hope you dont mind me asking this in your thread but both of my wheel tubs in my bed have these plugs in them that apear to be factory. I also have these exact same plugs in the floor pans under the carpet that I noticed when I redid my interior, in the floor pic there are 2 of them by the console bracket. Do you know what these are put in the wheel tubs for? Ive never seen them there before. (82 Chevy)

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by tylervalo

You bought up in another thread that the vent windows made noise even when new, what other issues or problems did these truck have brand new that would never be allowed today?

Funny you should ask that, because I was just reviewing in my head the "mental list" of things we knew ahead of time that we would need to repair for show trucks or media vehicles:

a) Fix wind noise (vent window and any other)
b) Vector and balance tire and wheel assemblies
c) System balance driveline
d) Fit doors in the opening, as well as fender to door fits and hood fits (as well as adjust closing efforts)
e) Smooth and polish the paint to eliminate or minimize orange peel
f) Anything else we discovered while riding/driving the vehicles

Sadly - I think we would probably still have to do most of those, with the exception of fit/finish (and probably wind noise). The tooling was so old on our trucks, and the fixturing so primitive, that the fits we allowed back then would never fly today.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by J Knight

Hey Keith, I hope you dont mind me asking this in your thread but both of my wheel tubs in my bed have these plugs in them that apear to be factory. I also have these exact same plugs in the floor pans under the carpet that I noticed when I redid my interior, in the floor pic there are 2 of them by the console bracket. Do you know what these are put in the wheel tubs for? Ive never seen them there before. (82 Chevy)

I'm not sure why they would be in the wheel tubs (my '87 does not have them).

Usually they are to plug an access hole, the hole being there for tooling access, spray wand for anti rust spray application, or an ELPO drain hole.

None of those reasons really apply to the wheel tub, though.

K

[tylervalo]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Funny you should ask that, because I was just reviewing in my head the "mental list" of things we knew ahead of time that we would need to repair for show trucks or media vehicles:

a) Fix wind noise (vent window and any other)
b) Vector and balance tire and wheel assemblies
c) System balance driveline
d) Fit doors in the opening, as well as fender to door fits and hood fits (as well as adjust closing efforts)
e) Smooth and polish the paint to eliminate or minimize orange peel
f) Anything else we discovered while riding/driving the vehicles

Sadly - I think we would probably still have to do most of those, with the exception of fit/finish (and probably wind noise). The tooling was so old on our trucks, and the fixturing so primitive, that the fits we allowed back then would never fly today.

K

I think those flaws just add to the truck, plus the built in advantage of being able to say "it was like that from the factory" whenever someone asked about a flaw
I have always notice the a-pillar to fender gap just doesn't look right on some trucks.
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[J Knight]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

I'm not sure why they would be in the wheel tubs (my '87 does not have them).

Usually they are to plug an access hole, the hole being there for tooling access, spray wand for anti rust spray application, or an ELPO drain hole.

None of those reasons really apply to the wheel tub, though.

K

Thanks for the reply, I've seen hundreds of these trucks and I'm sure you've seen thousands but never once til now have I seen these plugs on the wheel tubs. The only thing I can think of is possibly the PO might have had a camper on the back at one time and had the holes for draining something then stuck those plugs in when it was removed. Other than that I don't have a clue.
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[oldtek]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Funny you should ask that, because I was just reviewing in my head the "mental list" of things we knew ahead of time that we would need to repair for show trucks or media vehicles:

a) Fix wind noise (vent window and any other)
b) Vector and balance tire and wheel assemblies
c) System balance driveline
d) Fit doors in the opening, as well as fender to door fits and hood fits (as well as adjust closing efforts)
e) Smooth and polish the paint to eliminate or minimize orange peel
f) Anything else we discovered while riding/driving the vehicles

Sadly - I think we would probably still have to do most of those, with the exception of fit/finish (and probably wind noise). The tooling was so old on our trucks, and the fixturing so primitive, that the fits we allowed back then would never fly today.

K

How old?

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by oldtek

How old?

Well, in a word: "ancient".

Keep in mind this truck was conceived and designed in the late 60's/early 70's, so the actual component design and assembly tooling/fixtures/processes are all technology from that time frame.

Also - it was an era when passenger car design changed significantly every year (trucks every 4 years or so), so to build the same parts from 1973 - 1987 (or 1991) was beyond anyone's wildest imaginations.

In fact, when we quit making the C/K/R/V Suburban we were still using a wooden forming tool (a "temporary" tool!) to make some of the sheetmetal parts in the rear of the body.

K

[moregrip]

Wow Keith! What a great story, but better yet, what great experiences you've had! I just spent the last 2 hours(probably more) reading this thread! (Awesome). Thanks for sharing your memories, insight, and contributions to our community, MUCH appreciated!

Before I ask a question and since you introduced yourself.......My profession is an Operations Specialist in the US Navy (16.5 years and going strong!) I've been reading hot rod mags since I was 13 and started my first build at 16 (that one never got finished/long story). I just bought my first squarebody last month, a 1973 C20 roller. For guys like me that have been interested in cars, hot rods, mechanical things, etc., essentially all my life, hearing your stories is like icing on a cake, good stuff! And again thank you.

Now my question:

What more can you tell me about The "Little White Race Truck", vehicle number CP5085? What were the things you learned? What other mods were made to get it to go that fast? The more the better as far as I'm concerned!

[Walts_restoration]

Originally Posted by J Knight

Thanks for the reply, I've seen hundreds of these trucks and I'm sure you've seen thousands but never once til now have I seen these plugs on the wheel tubs. The only thing I can think of is possibly the PO might have had a camper on the back at one time and had the holes for draining something then stuck those plugs in when it was removed. Other than that I don't have a clue.
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My 83 has these on the bed. I have seen one other truck I think that had them.

[J Knight]

Originally Posted by Walts_restoration

My 83 has these on the bed. I have seen one other truck I think that had them.

I was begining to think a PO put them in. Still puzzled as to why they are there though.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by moregrip

Now my question:

What more can you tell me about The "Little White Race Truck", vehicle number CP5085? What were the things you learned? What other mods were made to get it to go that fast? The more the better as far as I'm concerned!

Sorry for the delay in responding -

The White Race Truck: I hardly know where to begin so I'll just do a "stream of consciousness" thing. Here goes:

The truck was a Chevy big block TH475 drivetrain; short wheel base 2wd stepside. Any big block will do (in our case it was all aluminum). The TH475 is a HD version of the TH400; the TH400 normally is plenty adequate for most combinations. We used the production driveline, complete with two piece shaft and center support, from the old original 454 short box pickups (procured over the parts counter at the Proving Ground). We also had a 9" ring gear rear axle that had been drilled for 5x5 Centerline wheels. Tires were huge (I don't recall the size but could get that) and were accomodated by fleetside wheel tubs set inside the pickup bed. I don't recall that the rear leaf springs were relocated but they may have been. Rear supension was a combination of the stock springs with leafs added - plus an additonal torque arm to control axle windup. The truck had a full cage with downtubes that came back through the rear window. Battery was located to the rear, as was the fuel tank (a Blazer tank if I remember correctly).

Probaby the biggest thing I learned, though, more than any particular speed trick that we added, was about data accumulation and interpretation. There were three of us: John, Jim and myself, all running big block/auto/full frame vehicles (John - pickup, Jim and I both had Chevelles) and the exchange of technology and ideas was tremendous. John taught me to methodically collect time slips and the gold they contained, looking at 60 ft times, ET and MPH, and watching for results as we made one change at a time.

These incremental improvements, made once change at a time (or in a statistically designed experiment), cannot be overlooked. Keep in mind my car has gone through 7 different engines, starting with 15.10/14.90s on the first day, then 13.30s, then 12.70s and 11.80s, all the way to 9.85 (on motor). I even put the original engine back in for a time and the car went 12.20s with the old smogger motor - a testament to chassis tuning and putting the available horsepower to the ground.

I still have a book (a couple, actually) filled with time slips and summary sheets to refer back to and remind me of this progress. I have made somewhere around 3500 passes in that car and I still have a time slip for every one of them. Of the 35 years I have been running my car probably 20 of those have been focused more on "development testing" rather than competitive driving.

I am sure I would not be where I am today (ET wise) if it were not for those years with John and the White Race Truck.

K

[turnemd]

Can I ask about the bed holder you made, is there somewhere that those dimensions are at? I have an Short stepside bed I need to start doing some body work to and that would be too handy to use. If you have a drawing or PDF I might get? Thanks.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by turnemd

Can I ask about the bed holder you made, is there somewhere that those dimensions are at? I have an Short stepside bed I need to start doing some body work to and that would be too handy to use. If you have a drawing or PDF I might get? Thanks.

Thank you; no drawing or dimensions - I just lined the 4x4 posts up so that I could shoot a lag bolt through the four farthest out box bolt holes. Then added some bracing around the bottom to keep it from falling apart.

I think if you grab some measurements off your pickup box and use that for a guide you'll do fine.

K

[moregrip]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Sorry for the delay in responding -

The White Race Truck: I hardly know where to begin so I'll just do a "stream of consciousness" thing. Here goes:

The truck was a Chevy big block TH475 drivetrain; short wheel base 2wd stepside. Any big block will do (in our case it was all aluminum). The TH475 is a HD version of the TH400; the TH400 normally is plenty adequate for most combinations. We used the production driveline, complete with two piece shaft and center support, from the old original 454 short box pickups (procured over the parts counter at the Proving Ground). We also had a 9" ring gear rear axle that had been drilled for 5x5 Centerline wheels. Tires were huge (I don't recall the size but could get that) and were accomodated by fleetside wheel tubs set inside the pickup bed. I don't recall that the rear leaf springs were relocated but they may have been. Rear supension was a combination of the stock springs with leafs added - plus an additonal torque arm to control axle windup. The truck had a full cage with downtubes that came back through the rear window. Battery was located to the rear, as was the fuel tank (a Blazer tank if I remember correctly).

Probaby the biggest thing I learned, though, more than any particular speed trick that we added, was about data accumulation and interpretation. There were three of us: John, Jim and myself, all running big block/auto/full frame vehicles (John - pickup, Jim and I both had Chevelles) and the exchange of technology and ideas was tremendous. John taught me to methodically collect time slips and the gold they contained, looking at 60 ft times, ET and MPH, and watching for results as we made one change at a time.

These incremental improvements, made once change at a time (or in a statistically designed experiment), cannot be overlooked. Keep in mind my car has gone through 7 different engines, starting with 15.10/14.90s on the first day, then 13.30s, then 12.70s and 11.80s, all the way to 9.85 (on motor). I even put the original engine back in for a time and the car went 12.20s with the old smogger motor - a testament to chassis tuning and putting the available horsepower to the ground.

I still have a book (a couple, actually) filled with time slips and summary sheets to refer back to and remind me of this progress. I have made somewhere around 3500 passes in that car and I still have a time slip for every one of them. Of the 35 years I have been running my car probably 20 of those have been focused more on "development testing" rather than competitive driving.

I am sure I would not be where I am today (ET wise) if it were not for those years with John and the White Race Truck.

K

Excellent! Thanks Keith

sounds like a stout combination. I suppose there aren't any pics?????

[esbstuff]

Keith, You weren't driving a 14 Stingray the otherday were you?

Yes I am taliking about the one that was crashed in AZ... You know I had to ask just because you are the only real GM employee I know...

News Link: http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoram...011152790.html

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by esbstuff

Keith, You weren't driving a 14 Stingray the otherday were you?

Yes I am taliking about the one that was crashed in AZ... You know I had to ask just because you are the only real GM employee I know...

Nope - still buzzin around in my electric cars.

I saw the headline on Yahoo but didn't realize it was a GM owned vehicle.

Fortunately all of my driving mistakes have been a little more discreet (and a little less publicized).

K

[57rookie]

I too work for a major truck manufacturer - Daimler, although we manufacturer larger units, Freightliners and Western Stars, and Mercedes Benz trucks in Europe and Benz cars world wide. I have also held different positions within the organization and currently as a field District Service Manager serving dealerships technically and ensuring trucks stay on the road. Ultimately I am a car guy that loves anything with wheels and I can appreciate any brand of vehicle restoration as I know what it takes to get them back in to great condition. Hats off to another true automotive enthusist! I am currently working on a 1986 Canadian GMC Wrangler long box.

[Keith Seymore]

This week represents the end of an era for me -

For the last 14 years I have been in GM engineering project management assigned to various product programs. We take a vehicle model all the way from the clay in the studio, through the design and development process, help launch it in the assembly plant and stay with it until the build is stable. Anything related to "engineering" fell under my responsibility (kind of like being the "design engineer for the whole car").

Some of the products birthed under my watchful eye while in this capacity were the 2001 GMC Denali, the 2002 Cadillac Escalade, the 2003 Chevy/GMC pickup, the 2007 Chevy/GMC and Cadillac SUVs, the 2008 Hummer H2 (I actually wrote the original engineering plan for what became the H2) and, for the last 4 years, the 2011/2012/2013/2014 Chevy Volt, Opel Ampera and Holden Volt. So - it's been a fun ride and I have particularly enjoyed the cross functional relationships (working with Purchasing, Marketing, Service, Product Recalls - ok, maybe not, Material Logistics, etc) and being the "go to" guy for options, vehicle complexity and understanding how the car goes together.

Starting Monday I will be a design engineer in the Underbody Structures group (floor pan and front of dash), once again with the truck group. It will be nice working with my old truck buds, and I think it will be somewhat liberating to only be responsible for one series of parts (and not the whole car). Initially I will be helping the group get better organized: developing the part number permutations/tracking, assisting in getting new parts released and on contract with the suppliers, and interfacing with the Program Teams (the people in my current job). Once we are through that hurdle they'll have to train this old dog on how to use all those fancy computers to actually design a part and start bending some metal.

I might even have a little more free time and be able to take some vacations during the summer, enjoying my old car and old truck hobby My wife is already making vacation plans to fill up this additional free time she thinks I am going to have...

K

[manimal]

Thats AWESOME!

[J Knight]

Congrats on your achievements and good luck on you future assignments. Its great having a guy with your history on the forum.
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