An expensive lesson learned

[RenoKeene]

Originally Posted by pumpkin

Roller cam has nothing to do with the valve covers,,,roller rockers do. And even though its nice to go full roller, the rockers don't seem to be a problem,,,,at least not now,,,,till they change **** on us next time around.

You are correct sir...I should have expounded on what I ment by "roller setup".
Thanks.

This thread opened my eyes wide...all my other motors are full roller...including the Nascar Bush Cup 9:1 358 we have in the race car. I had no idea what ZDDP was. I do now. Thanks again to this forum and to Mike for this post.

[oldblue1968chevy]

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=381780

Tickers Oil Thread

[treveiger]

I run a full synthetic from ams oil, its a 10w40 with zinc in it, I'd recommend using that(its designed for older motors with flat tappet cams) sucks to hear it happened to you
Posted via Mobile Device

[RenoKeene]

Just found this additive at CarQuest
Lucas Engine Break-in Oil Additive, TB ZINC-PLUS
"Addition of 16oz to 4.5 quarts motor oil will achieve approximately 5,000 ppm of Zinc"
$13.99
My fresh 70 402 has regular Valvoline 20W-50 in it right now and this Lucas should do until I get it broken in, then.....

Thanks again Mike for your thread, and good luck.
Brad

[watahyahknow]

Law of Mechanical Repair - After your hands become coated with grease, your nose will begin to itch and you'll have to pee.

makes me think about a question i once saw on a rockcrawler forum ...... he wanted to know how to get bedliner of his little tool )

[domeier]

Dave Mann from AMSOl wrote me back with the following:

Hi Paul, Zinc and Zincdithiophosphate (ZDDP) are two totally different chemicals, of many, many chemicals, used in motor oils. Zinc has not been reduced but ZDDP has been reduced as per Federal EPA and automotive manufacturers requirements which have to do with catalytic converters being able to still work properly after 10 years/150,000 miles and still meet the Federal EPA requirements for emissions. ZDDP has been determined to have a negative effect on catalytic converters meeting these EPA requirements. Therefore ZDDP, but not Zinc, has been reduced significantly and in some motor oils replaced with other chemicals equivalent or superior to the performance of ZDDP. I recommend taking a look at a particular motor oils ASTM performance data which is the true measure of how the oil performs
irrespective of what the levels of Zinc and or ZDDP and other chemicals are
(which are proprietary). In the case of AMSOL the test data shows that
AMSOIL outperforms other motor oils in many, and in some motor oils all of
the critical test parameters as well as actual field tests and oil analysis
testing. For customers that desire an oil for extra wear protection
utilizing a high zinc formula use the AMSOIL Z-Rod Synthetic 10W-30,
or 20W-50.These two products are excellent for flat tappets,
high performance, heavy duty and high mileage applications.

See attached data sheet on Z Rod oil.

[rustyrodknocker]

Here is an opinion that may not be appreciated, but all things being equal starting with a bent pushrod which in my expierence has always been due to the pushrod being subject to excessive pressure. meaning rocker arm to tight/ incorrect adjustment. seen this many times. this would also explain a radical difference in wear on four lobes. with the same run time and equal lube and pressure the differences between lobes should be less than extreme. I would check the visible thread count above the nut on the rocker stud and disasemble the lifters or at least check spring back with a screwdriver or something similar. my next point is the vast majority of these old rigs [meaning millions] are running off the shelf motor oil. If it was devastating to flat tappet motors, these trucks would be stacking up in the ditch. My last point is just a personal expierence with a from mexico crate motor. My buddy called me over, he had his motor still in the crate, it was minus intake. You could see holes in the cam lobes. We both recognized it immediatley as we are both professional welders. Weld porosity The cam had been welded and reground. welded very poorly. starting porosity from what I guessed was smaw nirod. True story folks. Take it as you may. Hencho Rebuild. That being said my next motor will be roller, I think it is the way to go now.

[Mike Bradbury]

Originally Posted by rustyrodknocker

Here is an opinion that may not be appreciated, but all things being equal starting with a bent pushrod which in my expierence has always been due to the pushrod being subject to excessive pressure. meaning rocker arm to tight/ incorrect adjustment. seen this many times. this would also explain a radical difference in wear on four lobes. with the same run time and equal lube and pressure the differences between lobes should be less than extreme. I would check the visible thread count above the nut on the rocker stud and disasemble the lifters or at least check spring back with a screwdriver or something similar. my next point is the vast majority of these old rigs [meaning millions] are running off the shelf motor oil. If it was devastating to flat tappet motors, these trucks would be stacking up in the ditch. My last point is just a personal expierence with a from mexico crate motor. My buddy called me over, he had his motor still in the crate, it was minus intake. You could see holes in the cam lobes. We both recognized it immediatley as we are both professional welders. Weld porosity The cam had been welded and reground. welded very poorly. starting porosity from what I guessed was smaw nirod. True story folks. Take it as you may. Hencho Rebuild. That being said my next motor will be roller, I think it is the way to go now.

I have heard that the cams in these crate motors are junk and I have heard of them failing within a limited amount of hours. I am a welding instructor and have inspected the cam for evidence of it being welded and reground, and have not seen any. All I can say is that when I powder coated the pan there was no shavings in the bottom, and I was the first to take the pan off since it was new. I am pretty confident that all of the damage came from the last 1000 or so miles. Once the cam starts to shred it doesn't take long for the shavings to act like sand paper on everything in the entire engine.
For this reason I am upgrading to roller and all American made components.

In my build thread I describe more of the back story and what I found when I took the engine apart. The valve guide was smooth and there was no piston to valve contact. I think what I did was over reved the engine and floated a valve which dammaged it. It did not bend then but I think it weakened it and the long drive up to L.A. took it the rest of the way out. Also having a round cam lobe, the rod could not keep constant presure on the rocker and it probably started to wiggle around in its seat

[watahyahknow]

Originally Posted by Mike Bradbury

I have heard that the cams in these crate motors are junk and I have heard of them failing within a limited amount of hours. I am a welding instructor and have inspected the cam for evidence of it being welded and reground, and have not seen any. All I can say is that when I powder coated the pan there was no shavings in the bottom, and I was the first to take the pan off since it was new. I am pretty confident that all of the damage came from the last 1000 or so miles. Once the cam starts to shred it doesn't take long for the shavings to act like sand paper on everything in the entire engine.
For this reason I am upgrading to roller and all American made components.

In my build thread I describe more of the back story and what I found when I took the engine apart. The valve guide was smooth and there was no piston to valve contact. I think what I did was over reved the engine and floated a valve which dammaged it. It did not bend then but I think it weakened it and the long drive up to L.A. took it the rest of the way out. Also having a round cam lobe, the rod could not keep constant presure on the rocker and it probably started to wiggle around in its seat

did you do a metal hardnes test on the cam and lifters, it could be the surfacecoating on them is too thin
allso a bend rod could allso be because of water in the cilinder (hydrolock)

[stich626]

Originally Posted by Mike Bradbury

I have heard that the cams in these crate motors are junk and I have heard of them failing within a limited amount of hours.

you've heard false info..
the cams are fine the user are not..
they either don't know they need the zinc additive or the "off road only oil"
or they are to cheap.. and this is what happens..
before they came out with the truck vortec crate I have installed 10+ flat tap crates ,, most have over 250k and 3 are over 400k..
run the right oil no issues..

[leddzepp]

Originally Posted by Mike Bradbury

I think what I did was over reved the engine and floated a valve which dammaged it. It did not bend then but I think it weakened it and the long drive up to L.A. took it the rest of the way out.

i think this is far more likely what caused the problem than running the "wrong" oil.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Mike Bradbury]

I really think this was a perfect storm of issues that unfortunately culminated 100 miles from home. The guys at the dealership may have mis adjusted the valves when they installed the motor, it might have been the over rev that took its toll, the cam may have been inferior, and the oil may have exacerbated the weakness. At the time I was ignorant that ZDDP content had been reduced over the years and I used the same oil I always have used which led to the failure. Weather all these issues or some of them contributed to the failure, the spirit of this post was to alert the unsuspecting builder to pay attention to the small details. When you get a project truck, go over it completely and get a baseline on everything. Don't just take for granted that the engine appears to be fine. Look at the products that you put into the engine (gas, oil, antifreeze, etc..). with the EPA and the move toward cleaner energy, our older engines were not designed for the new generation of tech and attention to the detail is a must. This is why in the O.P. alluded to the fact that all motor oil is not created equal.

I like the fact that this thread has sen a lot of healthy discussion and did not just die after a couple of replies. There have been many who are now going to pay more attention than I did and hopefully save a bunch of headaches.

[leddzepp]

Originally Posted by rustyrodknocker

my next point is the vast majority of these old rigs [meaning millions] are running off the shelf motor oil. If it was devastating to flat tappet motors, these trucks would be stacking up in the ditch.

exactly.
Posted via Mobile Device
Posted via Mobile Device

[stich626]

Originally Posted by rustyrodknocker

. my next point is the vast majority of these old rigs [meaning millions] are running off the shelf motor oil. If it was devastating to flat tappet motors, these trucks would be stacking up in the ditch. .

haha, now take the 40 y/o wiped out springs off the engine and install good ones.. my old rig floated valves at 3200rpm with the old springs, and that the only reason they are skating by

[oldgold70c10]

Originally Posted by rustyrodknocker

my next point is the vast majority of these old rigs [meaning millions] are running off the shelf motor oil. If it was devastating to flat tappet motors, these trucks would be stacking up in the ditch.

Thank you. Based on what a lot are saying in this thread, all of my rides should have had wiped cams 5 or 6 years ago. For several years, before I rebuilt my truck's engine, I used the cheap Q-state oil, and it was lucky if I changed that oil every 10,000 miles! It had 212,000 miles on it and still ran down the road when I pulled it. I don't use Q-state any more and change oil every 3,000 miles, but I don't worry about ZDDP, and they still work. I don't have any non-stock, aggressive cams either.

[mcbassin]

Originally Posted by oldgold70c10

Thank you. Based on what a lot are saying in this thread, all of my rides should have had wiped cams 5 or 6 years ago. For several years, before I rebuilt my truck's engine, I used the cheap Q-state oil, and it was lucky if I changed that oil every 10,000 miles! It had 212,000 miles on it and still ran down the road when I pulled it. I don't use Q-state any more and change oil every 3,000 miles, but I don't worry about ZDDP, and they still work. I don't have any non-stock, aggressive cams either.

Don't ever under estimate "cheap" Quaker State. I have documented over 325K on one car and another with over 200K. Quaker is good stuff. For the record I have never believed in the 3000 oil change. Unless you live on 5 miles of dirt road.

[rustyrodknocker]

Originally Posted by oldgold70c10

Thank you. Based on what a lot are saying in this thread, all of my rides should have had wiped cams 5 or 6 years ago. For several years, before I rebuilt my truck's engine, I used the cheap Q-state oil, and it was lucky if I changed that oil every 10,000 miles! It had 212,000 miles on it and still ran down the road when I pulled it. I don't use Q-state any more and change oil every 3,000 miles, but I don't worry about ZDDP, and they still work. I don't have any non-stock, aggressive cams either.

yea, I just don't think the sky is falling as fast as some people. Not that I don't think its falling but you have to take the big numbers into consideration. thousands of home bulders and crate buyers are putting these motors into service without epedemic level failures. but the zinc content was there for a reason and its removal is not a plus. I have followed the oil science off and on for ten years. If there is any Harley guys on here they might know what I mean. When manufacturers refused to disclose what was or was not in there oil major publications began to have them analyzed and published the results for all to see. Speaking of Q state I did some work in a Q state / pennsoil plant when they changed from one product to another nothing changed except the color of the bottle. It was fun to watch. since this thread has bee hyjacked . [I apologise for my part] I would love to know why the viscocity of some same weight oils are so different at room temperature. ever notice that?

[mcbassin]

Wow Mike. Sorry to hear about your engine. I must have missed it on your thread. I'm not a gear head by any stretch but I appreciate this info. I had no Idea that you couldn't run Synthetic oil in a flat tappet engine. Thanks again.

[DeputyDan]

Originally Posted by mcbassin

Wow Mike. Sorry to hear about your engine. I must have missed it on your thread. I'm not a gear head by any stretch but I appreciate this info. I had no Idea that you couldn't run Synthetic oil in a flat tappet engine. Thanks again.

Royal Purple is a Synthetic and it's run on flat tappets and recommended for flat tappets so the idea that you can't run Synthetic in a flat tappet is false. If using Royal Purple get the HPS or XPR line and you don't need anything added.

[sleepingbag]

Originally Posted by DDixon1000

Royal Purple is a Synthetic and it's run on flat tappets and recommended for flat tappets so the idea that you can't run Synthetic in a flat tappet is false. If using Royal Purple get the HPS or XPR line and you don't need anything added.

Royal Purple or Amsoil and the best filter you can find and all the talk is a moot point, you wont have any issues at all.

[stich626]

Originally Posted by sleepingbag

Royal Purple or Amsoil and the best filter you can find and all the talk is a moot point, you wont have any issues at all.

ok if you say so...
good luck with that..

[sleepingbag]

Originally Posted by stich626

ok if you say so...
good luck with that..

It is true. The adpacks in all other oils are almost exactly the same. Just sayin, but keep on arguing, if thats what floats your boat man!

[stich626]

todays oil and flat tap cams, = no good..
if the block is machined for a roller cam, USE IT..

[406 Q-ship]

The cams in the 260 HP GM crate engines are not welded reground. They are pi$$ poorly cast new ones with porosity. The Mexican Goodwrench/Targetmaster back in the early 1980s had issues of cam failure due to the hone on the lifter bores (I honed more than a few after they killed the cam), the later engines did not have the lifter bore problems.

[leddzepp]

I think this thread has now just about run it's course...