Engine builder says to use valvoline 20w50

[highperf4x4]

Originally Posted by Sport/Truck

Thanks for sharing, it's nice to have all this information all in one place!
s/t

Just so I'm clear on what you're asking...... is this a new engine that you've just broken in? If it is and you have a hydraulic lifter flat tappet cam and you have valve train noise now then you're already screwed.

As for racing oil, I was referring to brands like Redline and Royal Purple. Valvolines VR-1 is closer to a conventional passenger car oil. I think it's pretty good stuff but not enough for break-in if that's what you're asking.

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by highperf4x4

Wow, I'm amazed at some of the things I've read in this thread. It's awesome that everyone is talking about this issue because it's extremely important but I can't believe some of things I'm hearing that the "mechanics" have said.

I'm a performance engine builder so I'm going to drop some info here just in case anyone is interested in using it. Definitely not trying to step on anyone's toes so this is just a "take it or leave it" kinda post.

Most of this info will deal with "flat tappet" hydraulic or solid lifter cams. Roller cams aren't subject to the "zinc" issue. And it all has to do with break-in. Your camshaft will either be set or ruined in the first 25 minutes.

1. Most important!!!! Your break-in procedure for the camshaft is the #1 issue regardless of oil. The cam lobes and lifter bottoms needs to be coated with the assembly grease that came with them. During installation you need to pour an entire bottle of GM EOS all over the cam and lifters. It will drain down and mix with your oil in the pan. Once you're ready to fire it up you have to start your engine and immediately bring it up to the 2500 to 3000 rpm range. You need to vary the rpm between 2500 and 3000 for at least 25 minutes. This means you need to have your timing set and enough coolant in the engine so that it will run this rpm and not overheat/backfire. If you're having trouble starting the engine, don't keep cranking, figure out the problem and try again. The reason for this procedure is that the lifters need to mate to the cam. They do this by spinning. The bottom of the lifters aren't flat. They're slightly indented, it's just hard to tell it. Same with the cam lobes. They have a slight arch in them. The reason for varying the rpm is that it will cause the crankshaft to throw oil on different ares of the cam. Your cam gets its oil from what is slung up by the crankshaft. If one area of the cam doesn't get enough oil during the break-in then the lifter bottom will overheat and "microweld" to the cam lobe when you shut it off. The next time you fire it up, it will break loose from the cam taking a small piece of the lobe with it. This is called "pitting" That pit will destroy the bottom of the lifter and then the lifter will destroy the cam lobe.

Now, the second most important thing to do is use the proper oil. It has more to do with what "not" to use. DO NOT USE SYNTHETIC OIL for break-in or the first 10,000 miles. If you've built a performance motor then don't use it at all. A synthetic oil is too slippery and this will keep your lifters from spinning on the cam lobe during break-in and they will never mate. It wil also interfere with this spinning at high rpm in a performance engine. As a tip, if you can have someone in the vehicle to control the rpm of the motor then you can run it without the valve covers in place. You can get a spash shield to catch the oil slung out by the pushrods. Watch the pushrods as they will spin with the lifters. If you see one that isn't spinning you can give it a spin with your fingers to help it start. (This is assuming that you've properly adjusted your lifters/rocker arms) Don't use a multi-grade oil either. Do your break-in with a straight 30w oil. The thicker the oil, the cooler it will keep the camshaft during break-in. Heat is a major factor. The GM EOS additive that you pour over the cam and lifters is the only additive you need. After you've finished the break-in procedure immediately change the oil. You can add more GM EOS to the new oil. Run that oil for about 500 miles (this is to seat the piston rings) and change it again.

Now for oil theories. Shell Rotella oil was the only conventional oil you could get at your parts store that still had the zinc in it but that ended early last year. If you look at a bottle now it has that triple protection stamp on it including "emissions". That tells you that the zinc has been removed. So, Diesel oil no longer has any advantage over any other oil.

As for multi-grades (ie 10w30, 10w40, 20w50) They are not 30w, 40w, or 50w oil. That second number means that they are "equivalent" to those wieghts after they've gotten "hot". They do this by adding "fillers" to the oil that keeps it from breaking down as much when it heats up. The down side is that you lose some lubrication as it's replaced by the "fillers". I use only straight 30w oil. This is actually thicker than 20w50. However, it thins normally as it gets hot whereas the 20w50 will be "as thick" as straight 50w when it's hot. Keeping your oil at the highest possible weight is not necessary. 90% percent of your engine wear (in a tight motor)_will occur at startup. Unless you drive at excessive rpms or overheat the engine.

No oil will ever break the drive rod for your oil pump. And 20w-50 is not even as thick as straight 30w when it's cold so don't worry about that. If you run a straight 50w oil (perhaps your engine is old and loose) then you need to take it out before the outside temperature drops below 60. Oil that thick will not flow properly at startup and your engine will run dry until it heats up.

Racing oil is not meant for street use. It will gum up. If you use it, make sure you change it every 1000 miles. That's gonna get expensive.

Like I said, this is my personal info, and not meant to argue with anyone else's experience.

Here's my recommendation for your engine's break-in.
-Straight 30w, any "conventional" brand you want to use. (not synthetic)
-GM EOS additive.
-After break-in change it immediately.
-Add GM EOS again
-At 500 miles, change it again.
-If you want to use a zinc additive, go ahead but it's not necessary once the cam has been broken in.
-Do not use Synthetics or additives like slick 50 for the first 10,000 miles. If it's a performance (high rpm) engine, don't use it at all.

Now, if you have a roller cam................ I've just wasted a bunch of typing because you can use whatever oil or procedure you want to!

Nice Job! I agree totally. One thing I would add is if you have a engne built and the builder reccomends a specific weight oil I would use it. Only he knows what the bearing clearances are, and should be taking that into account when reccomending the viscosity. I run VR1 30 in my 464 Pontiac and 10w30 VR1 in the truck in the colder months and VR1 30 in the summer. Both have roller cams, any thing with out a roller cam I use Brad Penn. I have though about trying ZDDP plus. I would have to send a sample of Brad Penn and then a sample of Valvoline with ZZDP plus out to be tested first. Then check the comparison. Great Topic!!

[chipflyer]

dont mean to jack this thread but i want to get this straight, if you have a flat tappet cam regardless if its soild or hydraulic you need zinc in your oil.

That is absolutely correct, almost every oil company (even Rotella) has cut the Zinc/phosphorus from their oil and it is not going to protect your flat tappet cam like it used to.
Just because you "have used brand x for years without trouble" means nothing now. Run any brand with an additive like ZDDP plus and forget the problem.

Jeff

[70cst]

The reason this thread is important to me is my 402BB will be totaly rebuilt so when the Circuit Rider gets out of the body shop I want to be sure I break the engine in correctly. As said...this is a very good thread. Thanks all for their input!

[highperf4x4]

Originally Posted by 70cst

The reason this thread is important to me is my 402BB will be totaly rebuilt so when the Circuit Rider gets out of the body shop I want to be sure I break the engine in correctly. As said...this is a very good thread. Thanks all for their input!

I've got the 402BB in my truck as well. Did you do a performance build or just a stock rebuild.

[russellmarling]

Thanks for the info on Shell Rotella T changing its formula. I didn't realize that they had changed it. This has been a very informative thread. I love this board.

[chas350]

Originally Posted by 1968SWBBigBlock

The real scoop on oil thickness
Your engine builder told you to run 20w50 oil because he built the motor on the loose side of the tolerance band - he needs the thicker oil to fill the bigger gaps in the bearings
This is not a good or bad situation - (a loose engine spins faster and makes better HP - a tighter engine will run smoother and last longer)
We run thinner oils in todays engines because they can maintain a tighter tolerance in the motor that works well with lighter weight oils.
Regarding what oil has zinc content and what oils do not - this is a moving target and nothing is written in stone - the oil company will not call you and tell you they changed the formulation - PROTECT YOURSELF - buy and use a good high quality additive that adds additional zinc back into your oil.
Many of the oils mentioned in this thread have changed formulations in the last 24 months - old tried and true may not work and it will be a costly lesson to learn when the cam fails.

Agree 100%. I don't believe Shell Rotella has Zinc anymore....The only oils with zinc to my knowledge are racing oils like the Joe Gibbs line etc.
From everything I have read, normal everyday engine oil, shell,pennzoil,amaco, etc has had zinc & phosphorus removed to protect catalytic converters and emissions.

If your motor has a flat tappet cam, don't fool yourself, its just a matter of time before you wipe the cam lobes. New oil is not the same, just because its the same brand/weight/package etc. GM EOS (engine oil supplement) is the stuff to use, Lucus also has a comparable product, for additives if you want to continue using your "old faithful brand" you need this!

[Jim_PA]

Originally Posted by chas350

If your motor has a flat tappet cam, don't fool yourself, its just a matter of time before you wipe the cam lobes. ......!

This leaves me with no choice then... I must do the roller cam conversion

[chas350]

Originally Posted by Jim_PA

This leaves me with no choice then... I must do the roller cam conversion

There ya go! my next motor will!

[WorkinLonghorn]

I always use Mobil 1 10-30 and after I heard about zinc/phosphorous levels being reduced in oils I continue using Mobile 1 hoping that the cam would wipe and I could then get a built 383 in there.
"Unfortunately" it runs just fine and I am beginning to believe that for a stock,low lift cam you don't need any fancy,expensive oil or additive.

[Sport/Truck]

After someone posted that the VR1 racing oil already had ZDDP, I decided to investigate the use of this oil. I called Valvoline Tech. support and inquired about this oil for a street car. I explained my concern that a race oil my not have the same detergents as other regular oils.

He said the VR1 has the same amount of detergent as their regular oil and ZDDP levels of 1400ppm & 1300ppm for Phosphorus.
I also talked to them about the weight of the oil. I decided to use a 10w30 and I’ll monitor the oil pressure and see if it gets too low during idle. – That would suggest the oil is too light.
The availability of the VR1 is pretty good too, so no worry there. The price was cheaper than buying oil and adding the additive.
The thing about going this way is the ZDDP is already in the oil so you don’t have to be concerned how it mixes or how it’s suspended in the oil – like someone already pointed out about additives.
Hope this helps.
s/t

[C20-67_N_MO]

I've always ran 10w30 in all my vehicles' engines and never had an issue.

Even back when I built my own engine for my '69 Camaro it would be with a good quality 10w30 for a few hundred miles then change that break-in oil with the same weight as what I used to break it in with.

Well like others have said on here before I just do not see the need to use the heavier weight 20w50 unless the engine build didn't setup the bearing tolerances tight enough.

[1968SWBBigBlock]

70CST - the real deal seems to be GM EOS, GM approved it for use in their motors - who am I to argue
It has been out on the market and is a trusted product with known results - everyone else is a johnny come lately
- they may be just fine, only time will tell
As I stated above = IMO - if you choose not to run an additive you run the risk of camshaft failure -we have no control over the oil company and when they decide to add or subtract ingredients

[70rs/ss]

You need some some of a break in oil period if you don't use the chance of a flat lobe increases.

As for using diesel oils, DON"T my 07 Dodge has a cat on it, do you think they would reformulate (gasoline oils to protect cats and not do the diesel oils!?) I didn't think so the ZDDP was dropped to protect the cats (oe got tired of replacing cats with the 10yr 100k warrantees and leaned on the epa, which in turn leaned on the oil companies). If it doesn't say NOT FOR USE ON "NEWER CARS" it doesn't has enough ZDDP. NAPA sells a 30 ND (non-detergent) that has PLENTY of ZDPP in it, use that for the first two oil changes then run whatever you want with a half a bottle of EOS or pay the extra for a good oil with plenty of ZDDP in it, or risk the chance of a flat lobe?!

You need

[Sinister]

Usually use 1/2 a bottle of EOS, though last oil change I went with a bottle of Compcam's Engine Break in additive.

[Sport/Truck]

Originally Posted by Sinister

Usually use 1/2 a bottle of EOS, though last oil change I went with a bottle of Compcam's Engine Break in additive.

Sinister – I was ready to use comp cams break in oil too. I did an internet search and quickly found out it not as good as they claim.
Can you find out how much ZDDP and Phosphorus is in it? Nobody seems to know & Comp cams is already known for bad lube in the case of the red assembly lube.
s/t

[jchav62]

Good thread. A lot of great info on here.

[Sinister]

Doh, might have to go back to EOS. Seems to be O.K. so far though.
My truck had what appeared to be 50,000 miles on it when I got it,
with what also appeared to be the original motor. So far so good.

[brothers69c-10]

I've been running plane old napa 10w30 in my old truck since iput the motor in 3 years ago. That was the oil i used to break it in too. Sometimes i even mix oil brands and weights since it leaks a little. Most mechanics don't recommend it, but i've never had any problems.
That motor is a small block of course. As for the big block in my 68 impala. Nothing has ever been done to the motor, it doesn't leak or burn oil, and i run motorcarft 5w-30 in it with no problems whatsoever.

[Sport/Truck]

Originally Posted by 1968SWBBigBlock

70CST - the real deal seems to be GM EOS, GM approved it for use in their motors - who am I to argue
It has been out on the market and is a trusted product with known results - everyone else is a johnny come lately
- they may be just fine, only time will tell
As I stated above = IMO - if you choose not to run an additive you run the risk of camshaft failure -we have no control over the oil company and when they decide to add or subtract ingredients

But with that analogy you only need it for the break in only, and back in the day they must have thought you needed more ZDDP than what was in the oils at the time? Makes me wonder If we should be using a good oil with ZDDP and EOS to get a total around 2800ppm?

Originally Posted by Sinister

Doh, might have to go back to EOS. Seems to be O.K. so far though.
My truck had what appeared to be 50,000 miles on it when I got it,
with what also appeared to be the original motor. So far so good.

I think it was either Valvoline or Lunati that said after a complete break-in was preformed you won't need the EOS anymore. He also said not only the 30 min run, but like 3k miles before you won't need it anymore. (I'm pretty sure it was valvoline who said that).
I remember the tech at Lunati saying you'll know if you'll have a cam failure real soon. Apparently once it starts in progresses very quickly.
That seems to back up the statement from the Valvoline guy? Sure is cheap insurance to keep on using it though.
Seems to be several people here using regular oil on high mileage motors with no ill affects.

Originally Posted by BossHogg69

fwiw, the guy that built the big block in my '69 said to use the Valvoline 20W-50 with a Delco filter, and that's what I've done. I drive it hard and it runs fine, doesn't use any oil at all. He also reminded me to let the motor warm up a bit when its cold out before 'gouging on it' (his words) as not to break the oil pump shaft off due to the thick oil... He runs Valvoline in his street driven '77 C10 with a 468, his 540 '67 Nova racecar and every other big block he has.

As for my '05, I only use Mobil 1 10W-30 and a mobil filter. I also had had a '92 chevy with a 350 in it. Used only Mobil 1 10W-30 in it, and drove the p*ss out of that truck for 250,000 miles. Never had to pull the valvecovers off. Just changed the oil every 5,000 and did lots of burnouts...

I'm switching out my vr1 10w30 for 20w50.

Originally Posted by brothers69c-10

I've been running plane old napa 10w30 in my old truck since iput the motor in 3 years ago. That was the oil i used to break it in too. Sometimes i even mix oil brands and weights since it leaks a little. Most mechanics don't recommend it, but i've never had any problems.
That motor is a small block of course. As for the big block in my 68 impala. Nothing has ever been done to the motor, it doesn't leak or burn oil, and i run motorcarft 5w-30 in it with no problems whatsoever.

Napa oil is Valvoline. AFA mixing oils, as long it's not Penzoil or Motor Craft you'll be fine

[Texasdeere]

All the light duty 3/4-1ton "big 3" diesel trucks have cats now. So the zinc/phosphorus in diesel oils will be most likely dissapearing soon or not.

You guys that don't want to run Valvoline 20w50 VR1, it also comes in 10w30. You may have to order it though as I never see it around here, just the 20w50 and straight 50wt at Autozone.

Looks like as of 2006 the Delo 400 had the same zinc/phosphorus levels as the VR-1. Not sure if it has changed any now.

Chevron Delo 400 Multigrade SAE 15W-40 meets:

• API Service Categories CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4,
CG-4, CF-4, CF, CE1, CD1, SL, SJ, SH1, SG1

Chevron Delo 400 LE SAE 10W-30 meets:

• API Service Categories CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS, CI-4,
CH-4, SM, SL


http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR...otor%20Oil.pdf

http://www.royalpetroleum.com/Upload...00%2015w40.pdf

Looks like a bunch of multi viscosity options with delo too. (May 2008) Their SAE 10w30 oil has the zinc.

http://www.chevrondelo.com/deloperfo...aspx#delomotor

[Sport/Truck]

Originally Posted by Texasdeere

All the light duty 3/4-1ton "big 3" diesel trucks have cats now. So the zinc/phosphorus in diesel oils will be most likely dissapearing soon or not.

You guys that don't want to run Valvoline 20w50 VR1, it also comes in 10w30. You may have to order it though as I never see it around here, just the 20w50 and straight 50wt at Autozone.

Looks like as of 2006 the Delo 400 had the same zinc/phosphorus levels as the VR-1. Not sure if it has changed any now.

Chevron Delo 400 Multigrade SAE 15W-40 meets:

• API Service Categories CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4,
CG-4, CF-4, CF, CE1, CD1, SL, SJ, SH1, SG1

Chevron Delo 400 LE SAE 10W-30 meets:

• API Service Categories CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS, CI-4,
CH-4, SM, SL


http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR...otor%20Oil.pdf

http://www.royalpetroleum.com/Upload...00%2015w40.pdf

Looks like a bunch of multi viscosity options with delo too. (May 2008) Their SAE 10w30 oil has the zinc.

http://www.chevrondelo.com/deloperfo...aspx#delomotor

I got the VR1 10w30 at NAPA. It wasn't out in front though and no tag either. They looked on the computer and said they had some and had to dig in some boxes in back.

[Texasdeere]

Originally Posted by Sport/Truck

I got the VR1 10w30 at NAPA. It wasn't out in front though and no tag either. They looked on the computer and said they had some and had to dig in some boxes in back.

Our NAPA closed a few years back, but I will check with the local autoparts next time to see what they have.

[Sport/Truck]

Originally Posted by Texasdeere

I have read that GM's EOS may be discontinued or the part number has changed. Seems like a rumor. Not sure though. There is still EOS out there to buy though.

Part number has changed, I have the new number if you need it.

Originally Posted by Texasdeere

Our NAPA closed a few years back, but I will check with the local autoparts next time to see what they have.

I checked Auto Zone and Checker and they both didn't carry it. The manager at Checker was going to see if he could order it, I'll talk to him tomorrow when I get my 20w50.
If he says he can order it I'll pass this on to you. I'm thinking he can't.
s/t

[Texasdeere]

I have read that GM's EOS may be discontinued or the part number has changed. Seems like a rumor. Not sure though. There is still EOS out there to buy though.