What happened to GM?

[shortymac83]

here's the mustang info:

http://www.fast-autos.net/ford/05fordmustang.html

here's the GTO info:

http://www.fast-autos.net/pontiac/05pontiacgto.html

[shortymac83]

oh, and not to be outdone, here's the road and track specs on a STOCK mustang GT

Price $25,705
Engine/Valvetrain sohc 4.6L V-8
Transmission 5-speed manual
Layout front engine/rear drive
Horsepower (SAE) 300 bhp @ 6000 rpm
Torque 315 lb-ft @ 4500 rpm
0-60 5.3 sec
Curb weight 3510 lb

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....&page_number=6

[FUNMUDDER]

Thats still pretty fast for the $$$$

[FUNMUDDER]

Originally Posted by chevy71super

I didn't mean to be an A-Hole Funmudder. Bad day yesterday. You seem like a standup guy. Sorry if I sounded like an, well you know what.

No big deal. Having a bad day really SUCKS!!!

[67shortie]

Originally Posted by shortymac83

ford comes out with a cheap performance vehicle (the mustang...bases at 16,000 for V6, 21,000 for V8) that has retro lines and just looks badass. GM comes out with a performance vehicle (after ditching one of the most popular ones - the camaro) that is heavier, almost as fast, and costs $35,000 with no options...AND it looks like a grand prix on crack. Nobody buys them. Why? too expensive, and too boring.

Quit while you are ahead.

I'd like to know where you can get a GT (only V8 I know of) for $21,000, I would buy it and make some cash re selling it.

GM did not 'ditch' the most popular F body line because they felt nobody wanted them (sales were slowing slightly). It had to do with meeting new crash standards, UAW contracts, the Camaro nameplate contracted to the Canadian plant that built the F body. I believe that expires in 2007 BTW. GM felt that development cash was needed in the truck marketplace instead of another F body redesign, so the line was pulled from the pony car sadly. A few years later Ford came out with the Mustang, hot seller (let's see how hot it stays) so GM went to thier global market and picked the Holden Monaro to bring back a muscle style coupe to the market. The UAW *****ed and Holden's inability for increased production to meet demand, so only 15,000 '04's and 12,000 '05's were able to be imported. (Also competing is the Vauxhaul=English version, and Monaro for production) Admittedly, the car was very poorly marketed, had less than exciting styling, and sales slumped as a result initially so very good pricing was introduced to move the remaining '04's off the dealers lots the last half of the year. It also did not help the promise of 50 more hp, bigger brakes, and revised styling of the next years model. The '05's are selling better than the '04's did as a result, both are very well refined cars for the price BTW.

And I hope you are not stating that the GTO (assuming the car described as a Grand Prix on crack ) is almost as fast as the GT? (no way in hell the GT is quicker/faster than the GTO) or the mentioned Camaro?, costs $35000, and no options. Siding with you on this, there is only one option, the tremec 6 speed that costs $695 but saves the buyer the gas guzzler tax of $1300 so it will actually be cheaper to 'option' the car out.

Base price on the GTO is $32995 non GMS, not $35,000.

Everything else you stated is opinion.

And yes, you guessed it, I am a '05 GTO owner so I am a 'nobody'

[67ChevyRedneck]

Ford's website show's the base price for a "deluxe" GT as 25,835 and a "premium" GT as 27,015. I've stopped by a local dealer 3 times in the past 6 months or so to price a V-8 car. The last time I went they had 11 V-6's on the lot and no V-8's in sight, I even peeped in the showroom window; nothing (this was at night, I don't like to be bothered.) So, I have yet to see a "sticker price" on a V-8. It's pretty easy to tell out on the road which is a six and which is an 8 (one tailpipe cutout as apposed to 2) I've seen hundreds of these cars, but no joke on this, I've only seen about 3 V-8 cars since they've come out. I might be just missing them, but if they were so cheap, why aren't there more V-8's out there? As a side note I've noticed about 80% of these cars are driven by women, which is cool, but to me, the mustang has been downgraded to a "chick car" along with the likes of the VW beetle and Honda Civic. That said, I'd still buy a new 'stang if I didn't love trucks so much, I'll probably never own one, but they look cool. I should also add that I've only seen 2 new GTO's running around the past two years.

[shortymac83]

I was very interested and called up one of the local dealers. I said "how much does it cost to make me a mustang that has a V8 with no other options. no power windows or locks, no AC...just give me a rental car special with a V8"

the lady emailed me back and said about $19,800...wanna see the email?

Dear Matthew Mcdaniel,





Thank you for your inquiry on the Mustang. Below you will find the information you requested:



Make: 2005 Ford

Model: Mustang Coupe Premium

New MSRP: $21,285.00

Our Price:* $21,285.00 (no dealer markup)



In addition, here is an alternative you may want to consider:

Make: 2005 Ford

Model: Mustang Coupe Deluxe

New MSRP: $19,865.00

Our Price:* $19,865.00 (no dealer markup



*All prices are with rebate applied and are plus tax and title.



Matthew, I was unable to find a "bare bones," Mustang with no other option than the 4.6L. However, I would be able to order the Mustang the exact way you want it. Please contact me if you would be interested in the above vehicle and/or placing an order for the the exact Mustang you are looking for.


so I called her up with the given phone number, and she said that that was the pricing for the exact car I wanted. The deluxe had some fancy stuff like power windows, locks and driver's seat, but aside from that they were stripper V8's.

$19,800

And as I recall when GM did get rid of the F body, it was primarily due to lackluster sales because everyone wanted a new car, not one that looked pretty much like it did since 1994.

From the numbers I got, they're about the same in performance, which is why I said that.

and when I said that "nobody buys them" - since they started building the GTO, I've seen a total of 3. THREE. all black, all looking like grand prix. Since they started building the new mustang, they've turned into bellybuttons. Everybody has one...in my little town of 1500 people alone there are 4 of them. look around, which do you see more of.

as far as the grand prix styling...can you name the GTO?






I'll agree to disagree, but I personally think that all of those cars look almost identical. especially the G6 and GTO...at least in the styling department. And yes, that is my opinion. I did not mean for it to be anything but that.

[67shortie]

According to www.ford.com one cannot get a V8 deluxe Mustang.

It's a V6, the only V8 is a GT which starts at 25,835, a pretty good bargain still but not 19 and some change.

Me, I like the styling of the new Mustang, it looks fresh, and dated at the same time. The GT has a simple low cost performance look to it with style.

The GTO looks typical GM, and like a Pontiac, so what, the Mustang looks like a Ford. Do I wish the GTO looked more retro? Well, maybe. It does not really look like a GTO but if Pontiac kept the name in the market all these years, who knows what it would look like. Maybe just like it does? I have a 70 Chevelle and a 67 fleetside truck in the garage for my retro mood.

I did not buy the GTO for looks only, it is reasonably quick, very refined, handles good, awesome seats, and brakes very well. Best new GM car I have ever bought, ever. I have not had this car back to the dealer for anything, but I have only 7500 miles on it so far. And I fit, I'm over 6-8.

Seen a GTO around? Yes, I live in a town of 70,000 and have 5 of them here. The GT Mustang, nope, just V6's. Hell, we have 2 CTS-V's and a couple of new M3's. Took the GTO to the dragstrip a few weeks ago and there were 6 GTO's there but no '05 Stangs. Point is, from my perspective the GTO is so far outselling the GT in my neck of the woods. But nationally, the GT outsells the GTO 5 to one no doubt.

What was the original thread about?

[67shortie]

Originally Posted by 67ChevyRedneck

As a side note I've noticed about 80% of these cars are driven by women, which is cool, but to me, the mustang has been downgraded to a "chick car" along with the likes of the VW beetle and Honda Civic.

Fully agreed, the V6 Mustang has allways been labled a chick car, then and now. The GT is more masculine, but still has that reminder of the majority of women drivers owning them and takes some of that away. Just like a turbo beetle compared to the regular/convertable. Can't mask it's stigma

OK, I'll stop

[panhandler62]

The GT is more masculine, but still has that reminder of the majority of women drivers owning them and takes some of that away.

Tell ya what . I'll wear a wig and fake hooters all day if I can do it driving a Saleen 281 Extreme around. lol

[67ChevyRedneck]

Originally Posted by panhandler62

Tell ya what . I'll wear a wig and fake hooters all day if I can do it driving a Saleen 281 Extreme around. lol

Don't forget to take pics..... REMEMBER

[Longhorn Man]

well the new mustang with the pony package is going to be VERY hard to tell from the 05 GT... with the exception of the exhaust, a crhome bar in the grill, and a badge, it looks just like last years GT...fog lights, wheels...the whole nine yards.
So i guess last years GT will now be a chick car since the new V6 is a detuned GT.
The reason you see no GT's out there, is they can't build enough. The waiting list is so long, that ppl who put a deposit on one 6 months ago are being told that they won't get an 05, but rather an 06 GT.
I know for a fact I have seen over a dozen 05 GT's here on the west side of columbus, over a million ppl in greater columbus...and yes, about eleventybillion v6 coups.
GTO's...I've only noticed a handfull. I know of 5 of them...however, i am SURE there has been more that slipped right by since they do (IMO) look like a grand am or grand prix or honda accord. Is that a bad thing? Yes and no.
Pontiac was asked why they didn't go retro, and there answer was that Pontiac has been GM's division of looking into the future. All there cars in the last decade have been cutting edge (there words... not mine) anmd going retro would have been a huge step in the wrong direction.
At first, I was glad they didn't go retro, the original GTO was nothing more than a typical everyday tempest, with badges and a kickin motor. So now, they took an average looking car, and put in a kickin motor.
it's a two sided sword. You blend into traffic and don't get noticed by the police with bright colors and boy racer stripes, yet, you get no recognition since it looks like anything else out there.
Something else to remember to... these two cars are NOT intended for the same buyer. The Pontiac is aimed at the older more sophisticated buyer... over 45, making over 60K a year, owning a house and having a family.
Does that sound like a mustang owner?

The mustang has been "a chick car" for many years. When my dad was workign for a ford dealer in the late 80's (88 I think) They were selling Stangs to chicks something like 5 to 1. And they weren't all 4 cylinder cars.

[Longhorn Man]

Oh yeah, if they did in fact kill the F body so they could build more trucks..then shame on them. That was there excuse for killing the b body and handing the ENTIRE market to ford.


Who says history doesn't repeat its self.

[littlee_domn8r]

The GTO didn't sell very good around here. The dealer in Mobridge still has a brand new 04 model on the lot. (It is yellow, though ) I think they have it marked at $24,000 right now. If I was in the market for a new car, I'd sure be thinkin about it, but I've made up my mind that I am going to drive the wheels off of my Monte Carlo before I buy another car.

[67shortie]

Originally Posted by Longhorn Man

Oh yeah, if they did in fact kill the F body so they could build more trucks..then shame on them. That was there excuse for killing the b body and handing the ENTIRE market to ford.


Who says history doesn't repeat its self.

Agreed, also the move GM made to kill the Caprice to build more trucks is not helping them right now. I still can't believe GM marketed a FWD sedan to the police forces to this day Ford has the cop car market cornered, but that Murcury Marauder is a flop sales wise but still is a cool ride.

Longhornman brings up a great point, the heritage of the original GTO still holds true to this day but somewhat poorly executed by GM I will say. Back in the day the Tempest was the most ordinary car, offered in 4 door 6 banger models (like in OZ but unfamiliar to the US market) but on the other side of the option sheet was a good running 389 cid 4 speed. Hense the GTO was born. 30 years later, the new GTO was introduced. Bland sedan styling, blends into traffic but a stout performer. And also a bargain in it's class.

BTW, the only real domestic competitor to the GTO is the GT Mustang (good performance for the $$) and the SRT-8 line of DMC which is over $40K currently.

And BTW, a GT Mustang will get noticed first in the fast lane doing 80mph before a 'bland' GTO will

[Longhorn Man]

Originally Posted by 67shortie

Longhornman brings up a great point, the heritage of the original GTO still holds true to this day but somewhat poorly executed by GM I will say. Back in the day the Tempest was the most ordinary car, offered in 4 door 6 banger models (like in OZ but unfamiliar to the US market) but on the other side of the option sheet was a good running 389 cid 4 speed. Hense the GTO was born. 30 years later, the new GTO was introduced. Bland sedan styling, blends into traffic but a stout performer. And also a bargain in it's class.

With that being said, there is a differance in the market today too. back in 64, you either got a booring car that was slow, a booring car that was fast (GTO) a cool mustang that was slow, or a VW, which was butt ugly, and the slowest thing on the road.

These days, the top 3 things on a buyers list... in any order, looks, performance, economy.

NO ONE likes driving a car that is underpowered. True, my definition of underpowered is nothing at all like my dad's views, however, slow is slow, and no one wants to be in the way. However, some will accept it if the price is right (think GEO) or if it looks good enough, or if it is ecinomical.
NO ONE wants to drive an ugly car. We all have at least one car...we'll stick with moden cars, 5 years or newer... that we wouldn't want to own if it was given to us. Myself, that little box Scion xB.. or honda element... I wouldn't even drive it to the dealer...I'd have my sister drive it there for me and I'll drive my truck...THEN I'd trade it in.
<---- No Thanks!

Point is, there are many choices today, and ppl will pic a combo of what they want. fast and sporty, fast and bland, not quite so fast and way good looking, slow and square....
You can't please everyone.
If 38K was affordable to me, I might actually have a GTO. It isn't though, and the fact that I think it is way too booring (At least it isn't a 4 door front wheel drive crap box). Even though I can't really afford 26K for a stang GT... I am very tempted to go see if my signiture is good enough to get one anyways. It is almost afordable to the majority of the ppl, it is once again, the best bang for the buck... like the old 5.0 LX was back in the late 80's early 90's.

[panhandler62]

lol... my kids know I'm going to be in the market for a new family drive next fall and they are campaigning like little republicans trying to talk me into the xB

I think I've pretty much settled on a Matrix/Vibe or a Mazda 3 5 door.

I would love a 'Stang or GTO or (come on lottery!) a CTS-V, but on my budget and bearing in mind my 126 mile (round trip) commute .. economy, reliability and price are paramount.

[Longhorn Man]

Originally Posted by panhandler62

lol... my kids are campaigning like little republicans trying to talk me into the xB...

Dude...I am sooooo sorry.
Those things are ALMOST as bad as the Aztec. At least that little box thing is small enough to hide behinde the bushes by the driveway.

[panhandler62]

Yeah.. guess so.. and a libertarian would tell you to get what you want and suggest you but an automatic rifle to protect it. lol