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#51 |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Toano, VA
Posts: 874
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Re: Proportioning Valve Keeps Tripping?
UPDATE 4/3/24
I ordered a new proportioning valve to swap out in case this ends up being an issue - it has solved the brake light issue, but the brakes are only at the bottom of the pedal. I have ensured a 1/16 clearance to the MC from the booster, and that is proper. I am in the camp that the MC is bad. That will probably be my next item to replace.
__________________
"Sometimes I do serve as a good bad example. Glad to be of service." My Build Thread (1967 C10, lowered, EFI, daily truck): http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=830809 |
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#52 |
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Bowser
Posts: 13,600
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Re: Proportioning Valve Keeps Tripping?
Might be the only thing wrong with the master is it’s bore is too big.
Measure it first. And did you change your pedal ratio? Last edited by geezer#99; 04-03-2024 at 09:23 PM. |
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#53 |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Toano, VA
Posts: 874
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Re: Proportioning Valve Keeps Tripping?
The bore is 1", I would imagine that isnt a problem given this is a 'kit' set up to work with each other. The pedal ratio was slightly modified, but pushing the pedal in and out, I dont see any issue with the travel.
__________________
"Sometimes I do serve as a good bad example. Glad to be of service." My Build Thread (1967 C10, lowered, EFI, daily truck): http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=830809 |
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#54 |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Toano, VA
Posts: 874
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Re: Proportioning Valve Keeps Tripping?
Well, I ordered a new master cylinder last night. After that, Im all out of ideas. We will see!
__________________
"Sometimes I do serve as a good bad example. Glad to be of service." My Build Thread (1967 C10, lowered, EFI, daily truck): http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=830809 |
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#55 |
425hp409
![]() Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Prosper Texas
Posts: 841
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Re: Proportioning Valve Keeps Tripping?
Some service manuals said to lightly tap the caliper with a hammer to dislodge any small air bubbles that may be clinging to the caliper wall. This could be your pressure differential problem. This was in the textbook that I used when I taught at a trade school.
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Charles 68 SWB, Dad bought new, now 396 & factory ac 64 Impala SS, 409 425HP, 4 speed AC 64 Bel Air Wagon, 400 Small Block 57 Bel Air all original 283 w/Factory Air 77 GMC Sprint, 454/425HP 67 Olds 442, all original 90 ZR1 Corvette |
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#56 | |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: San Ramon,CA
Posts: 501
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Re: Proportioning Valve Keeps Tripping?
Quote:
Could still be air in those wheel cylinders somehow, but I don't know if it can hide the way it might in a caliper.
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1970 C10 Custom longbed 350/350 |
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#57 | ||
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Toano, VA
Posts: 874
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Re: Proportioning Valve Keeps Tripping?
Quote:
Quote:
![]() So my train of thought is this: My proportioning valve is no longer biasing to the front or rear, which indicates a internal fault in the prop valve. Given the red brake light no longer persists, but the pedal is far weaker than it should be, I would imagine an issue before the proportioning valve exists, which would indicate the master cylinder or booster has failed. Hopefully I will be putting this theory to the test here this upcoming week.
__________________
"Sometimes I do serve as a good bad example. Glad to be of service." My Build Thread (1967 C10, lowered, EFI, daily truck): http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=830809 |
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#58 |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Toano, VA
Posts: 874
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Re: Proportioning Valve Keeps Tripping?
Well, I am at a loss.
I have replaced the master cylinder, and found a broken flare on the master cylinder side for the primaries. New master cylinder, fronts bled great, rears I could hardly get any flow. Not sure why. Verified strong flow at line out of master, prop valve and out of prop valve. At the wheel cylinders, its a slow drip. Nevertheless, I bled as best I could, still no pedal. I have now replaced all beside the booster, and I dont honestly think the booster is bad because I feel the pedal would be hard, rather than just pure air. I am pretty seriously beat down now. I may just walk away for a bit after all this effort and time and money to be in the same place.
__________________
"Sometimes I do serve as a good bad example. Glad to be of service." My Build Thread (1967 C10, lowered, EFI, daily truck): http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=830809 |
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#59 | |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: North Texas
Posts: 3,485
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Re: Proportioning Valve Keeps Tripping?
Quote:
Dent or obstruction in the hard line from combo valve to rear hose? Or maybe the hose itself or the tee? Sounds crazy. I know someone said not to blow compressed air through the lines, but that's what I'd do at this point.
__________________
Mike 1969 C10 LWB -- owned for 35 years. 350/TH350, 3.08 posi, 1st Gen Vintage Air, AAW wiring harness, 5-lug conversion, 1985 spindles and brakes. 1982 C10 SWB -- sold 1981 C10 Silverado LWB -- sold, but wish I still had it! 1969 C10 (not the current one) that I bought in the early 1980s. Paid $1200; sold for $1500 a few years later. Just a hint at the appreciation that was coming. Retired as a factory automation products salesman. Worked part-time over the years for an engine builder and a classic car repair shop. Member here for 24 years! This is the very first car/truck Internet forum I joined. I still used a dial-up modem back then! |
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#60 |
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: So Cal
Posts: 1,436
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Re: Proportioning Valve Keeps Tripping?
>>found a broken flare on the master cylinder side for the primaries.<<
"primaries" ? Explain. The rear piston in the MC is the Primary (singular). The line flair leaked and you replaced the line ? >>Verified strong flow at line out of master, prop valve and out of prop valve. << If you cracked the fittings, pumped the pedal and got fluid out, when you released the pedal it would pull air back into the lines, combo valve and MC. Explain your actual process. Did you recheck the booster pin-to- MC depth with the new MC ? What bleeding method are you now using ? If manual bleeding, I suggest getting a helper and open/close those speed bleeders as though they were regular bleeders. I'm not totally convinced your speed bleeders are acting as they should.
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'67 GMC 2500, 292, 4spd, AC |
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#61 | ||
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Toano, VA
Posts: 874
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Re: Proportioning Valve Keeps Tripping?
Quote:
I am using a pressure bleeder set to 15-20PSI, so no pedal actuation. I have checked clearance with a micrometer end and a ruler, and am around the spec. Quote:
When I crack the rear bleeders, I get a rush of fluid, then it slows and eventually just completely stops. The fronts will rush out and fill a mason jar quick, rears wont even get above 1/4inch of fluid in the mason jar before it stops. Compressed air will probably be my next step. I just cant believe how many issues I am getting right now. Its insane.
__________________
"Sometimes I do serve as a good bad example. Glad to be of service." My Build Thread (1967 C10, lowered, EFI, daily truck): http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=830809 |
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#62 |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: North Texas
Posts: 3,485
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Re: Proportioning Valve Keeps Tripping?
I once had a pressure bleeder kit and never could make it work right. But it was great for making a mess!
How about old fashioned manual bleeding? That's where a helper does "pump, pump, pump, hold" and then you open the bleeder screw. Then you close the screw and repeat the process until there are no more bubbles. If you get very little fluid out the wheel cylinders using that method, then I give up. I've also used a MityVac, which works fine, but as mentioned a couple times in this thread, it will suck in air past the bleeder screw nipple. Makes it look like there's air in the lines when there's not -- or probably not.
__________________
Mike 1969 C10 LWB -- owned for 35 years. 350/TH350, 3.08 posi, 1st Gen Vintage Air, AAW wiring harness, 5-lug conversion, 1985 spindles and brakes. 1982 C10 SWB -- sold 1981 C10 Silverado LWB -- sold, but wish I still had it! 1969 C10 (not the current one) that I bought in the early 1980s. Paid $1200; sold for $1500 a few years later. Just a hint at the appreciation that was coming. Retired as a factory automation products salesman. Worked part-time over the years for an engine builder and a classic car repair shop. Member here for 24 years! This is the very first car/truck Internet forum I joined. I still used a dial-up modem back then! |
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#63 |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Cypress, TX
Posts: 3,688
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Re: Proportioning Valve Keeps Tripping?
Interesting behavior. Brings me back to wondering if the master cylinder has front reservoir for for rear drum brakes and rear reservoir for front disc brakes the way they are typically set up for C20.
As mentioned in this other recent thread by geezer#99 and earlier in this thread by kwmech the master cylinder may have residual pressure valves that are specific for drum or disc, and the residual pressure for drum is greater. I don't know the confidence level that should be trusted in what the "people who sell these" saying about the design of it. I would want to see the actual specs and would like to have the tools and equipment to do measurements (like for the residual pressure, as if I would know how to measure that). It's hard to put a brake system together and trust that the specs are right. This thing you're going through is mysterious and I wish I had advice to remove the mystery and just determine the facts. The action I would take is highly biased so you may not find it useful, biased by my preference for manual brakes on a C10. So I'd be putting a manual master cylinder that I know works for disc/drum on the firewall and call it a day. The manual master cylinder has a deeper bore for the push rod. Kit type master cylinders often have a deep bore and an adapter pin that fit in the push rod hole to make it compatible with a booster that requires a shallow push rod hole. I'm sure there's not very much to adapting a deep push rod hole to a shallow one, it's just a small rod of metal. So perhaps one of those manual master cylinders could be adapted for power, or a different power master cylinder that somebody here on the forum can attest to working on a C10 could be used. 71-72 C10 that came from the factory with disc/drum had 1.125 bore regardless of whether they were power or manual, and that has been shown to us by Keith Seymore right from the engineering specs he posted. A MC with 1 inch bore is not to spec for a C10, I'm not saying it won't work, it just reduces my confidence in the people who sell these kits and makes me wonder what the heck. Anyway I ramble, sorry too much rambling, saying bye now and I hope you find the solution. Last edited by dmjlambert; 04-09-2024 at 12:25 AM. Reason: add url |
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#64 | |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Cypress, TX
Posts: 3,688
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Re: Proportioning Valve Keeps Tripping?
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#65 |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: North Texas
Posts: 3,485
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Re: Proportioning Valve Keeps Tripping?
About master cylinder built-in valves, I cut this from a post on The H.A.M.B.
An easy way to check any dual master is to take a paper clip or similar small diameter object and slowly push it into the output ports. If you feel a spongy resistance, you are pushing against a residual valve. If none are present, the object will easily go into the master bore. I seriously doubt if yours has a built-in valve or valves. Everything you need is in the combination valve.
__________________
Mike 1969 C10 LWB -- owned for 35 years. 350/TH350, 3.08 posi, 1st Gen Vintage Air, AAW wiring harness, 5-lug conversion, 1985 spindles and brakes. 1982 C10 SWB -- sold 1981 C10 Silverado LWB -- sold, but wish I still had it! 1969 C10 (not the current one) that I bought in the early 1980s. Paid $1200; sold for $1500 a few years later. Just a hint at the appreciation that was coming. Retired as a factory automation products salesman. Worked part-time over the years for an engine builder and a classic car repair shop. Member here for 24 years! This is the very first car/truck Internet forum I joined. I still used a dial-up modem back then! |
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#66 |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Cypress, TX
Posts: 3,688
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Re: Proportioning Valve Keeps Tripping?
That is interesting information. There's too much general information that's confusing, and not enough actual technical specifications about what is in each component. I understand the factory combination valves don't have residual valves, they just have the shuttle switch, metering valve (for 71 manual brakes they didn't have one, but for other applications they did), and proportioning valve. Who knows what is in the chinese brass block style replacement combination valves. I'm kind of doubting there are residual valves in there. The residual valves would have been in the master cylinder way back when, but there is other information on the internet about modern wheel cylinders not needing residual valves any more and who know the specs on the master cylinders they are selling in parts stores (or anywhere).
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#67 |
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Bowser
Posts: 13,600
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Re: Proportioning Valve Keeps Tripping?
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#68 | |||||
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Toano, VA
Posts: 874
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Re: Proportioning Valve Keeps Tripping?
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I normally do the one man method, but I cant even get a small amount of fluid from the rear. Its mind boggling. Even punching the pedal does nothing. I figured a pressure rush would at least make it do something, but nothing at all. Quote:
Quote:
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"Sometimes I do serve as a good bad example. Glad to be of service." My Build Thread (1967 C10, lowered, EFI, daily truck): http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=830809 |
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#69 |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Toano, VA
Posts: 874
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Re: Proportioning Valve Keeps Tripping?
Update;
Still no pressure at the rear wheel cylinders, no amount of two person bleeding nor pressure bleeding really yields me any more fluid than the other. I have check a few things; Fittings at master for flow when the pressure bleeder is on - good Fittings at the proportioning valve when the pressure bleeder is on - good Fittings at first union when pressure bleeder is on - good (both sides of union) Fitting at the hard line to soft hose when pressure bleeder is on - good Fittings at the tee for the rear end distribution when pressure bleeder is on - passenger side - little to no flow -- driver side, good Fitting at wheel cylinder on passenger side - no flow I cannot check the fitting at the driver side wheel cylinder as the nut is rounded, but no flow at bleeder. Even removing the bleeder from both sides on the rear end, virtually no fluid comes out. My only conclusion is I have some incredible blockage here, maybe the soft line failing from being unused for so many years? I really dont know. I may just buy a new soft line & tee, with new rear hard lines just in case for this weekend when I continue deeper. Though this is super discouraging, I really want this truck on the road. and on we go
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"Sometimes I do serve as a good bad example. Glad to be of service." My Build Thread (1967 C10, lowered, EFI, daily truck): http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=830809 |
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#70 |
Junior Member
![]() Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Santa Cruz, NM
Posts: 95
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Re: Proportioning Valve Keeps Tripping?
I offered some advice early on and saw that you were getting better advice from others, but I've been following. I had suspected your rear rubber hose, and I couldn't find in your posts if you had replaced it. I'm glad you were able to troubleshoot your brake lines, and thank you for posting on your updates. You're helping some future 67-72 GM truck enthusiast that may have similar issues. The tee can be cleaned unless it's part of the rubber hose. I hope your brake kickass after all that you've had to do.
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#71 | |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Toano, VA
Posts: 874
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Re: Proportioning Valve Keeps Tripping?
Quote:
I did replace that proportioning valve, and I do believe the old one was faulty and too sensitive, as this new one is more firm in its shuttle bore, the old one could be moved by a paperclip. So that was correct in suspecting there was a fault there.
__________________
"Sometimes I do serve as a good bad example. Glad to be of service." My Build Thread (1967 C10, lowered, EFI, daily truck): http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=830809 |
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#72 |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: North Texas
Posts: 3,485
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Re: Proportioning Valve Keeps Tripping?
Well, that's not good. Not anything to fail there, so maybe a blockage of some sort? When I mentioned checking it, I was grasping at straws. Remove it, soak it, and blow it out.
__________________
Mike 1969 C10 LWB -- owned for 35 years. 350/TH350, 3.08 posi, 1st Gen Vintage Air, AAW wiring harness, 5-lug conversion, 1985 spindles and brakes. 1982 C10 SWB -- sold 1981 C10 Silverado LWB -- sold, but wish I still had it! 1969 C10 (not the current one) that I bought in the early 1980s. Paid $1200; sold for $1500 a few years later. Just a hint at the appreciation that was coming. Retired as a factory automation products salesman. Worked part-time over the years for an engine builder and a classic car repair shop. Member here for 24 years! This is the very first car/truck Internet forum I joined. I still used a dial-up modem back then! |
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#73 |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Toano, VA
Posts: 874
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Re: Proportioning Valve Keeps Tripping?
I plan to do just that. I find it really weird, especially with 25PSI pushing on it, but we will see!
__________________
"Sometimes I do serve as a good bad example. Glad to be of service." My Build Thread (1967 C10, lowered, EFI, daily truck): http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=830809 |
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#74 |
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Bowser
Posts: 13,600
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Re: Proportioning Valve Keeps Tripping?
I think your problem is related to m/c bore and pedal ratio.
Here’s some info for you. https://www.speedwaymotors.com/the-t...e-system/30895 https://www.onallcylinders.com/2014/...der-bore-size/ |
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#75 | |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Toano, VA
Posts: 874
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Re: Proportioning Valve Keeps Tripping?
Quote:
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"Sometimes I do serve as a good bad example. Glad to be of service." My Build Thread (1967 C10, lowered, EFI, daily truck): http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=830809 |
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bleeding, brake light, brakes, proportioning valve |
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