CORN GAS RESULTS (pics!)

[BlackChevy]

Originally Posted by richards72chevy

They have been talking about switch grass for years.I remember a long time ago they were talking about a plant called kudzo or kudzu.It was imported over here from asia in the 30's and now its a problem in the south.It grows about three inches a day.

Kudzu is a vine that can grow up to 3 feet in a day. Seems someone thought it was a good idea to bring it over here to prevent soil erosion, provide high protein food for cattle, and for decoration and shade. I have grown it myself in a pot indoors just to measure how fast it grows. Not sure how that relates to switch grass... are they trying to use it for ethanol now? It would be easy to cultivate for sure.

[richards72chevy]

Not that i know of.I actually seen it on the news awhile back.A man was making it in his garage for his ride on lawn mowers.Said it was easy to make and there was an abundant supply of kudzu.He couldnt use it in a vehicle driven on the road!I guess it is law that you cant make your own fuel for street use?They did say it was one of the fastest growing plants.

[JointTech]

jet fuel is kerosene/diesel ...ish.
Small prop planes you see at the local strip run General Aviation fuel which I think is 110 octane. I also suspect its real gas. My dad used to fill up his truck when filling the plane.

We always thought it ran faster... probably just mental. My Scion runs like **** on 87 and in the summer with the AC cranked its unbearable so I run premium. Its only $2 more per tank.

[JointTech]

the unfortunate thing about kudzu is cows dont eat it.... duhhhhhh somebody probably should have thought of that before unleashing it.

[dznucks]

Higher octane fuels have a higher ignition tempurature, they dont nessecarily burn slower. As you increase the pressure on any gas, its temperature increases. Think of a pressure cooker.

Take a low octance fuel and put it in a high compression motor. The reason it will knock is due to the in cylinder pressure raising the cylinder tempurature up to and past the ignition temp of the low octane fuel. This happens milli-seconds before the spark plug ignites the fuel. Now you have ignited the air/fuel mixture in two places within the cylinder. The collision of the two flame (pressure) fronts creates the knock that you hear.

Now take a high octane fuel and put it in a low compression motor. The cylinder will never reach the appropriate pressures or temps to completely combust all the fuel. So, in essence you are wasting your fuel.

The OP is correct that you will run richer, but that is due incomplete combustion. Your fuel economy will decline since you are not completely burning the fuel and your performance will suffer as well.

[BigBlocksRule]

The flame fronts colliding is one part of the noise of knock.
When the spark plug ignites the air/fuel mixture, it BURNS across the top of the piston and throughout the chamber.
When fuel is ignited by pre-ignition/detonation, it EXPLODES rather than burning. This is what hammers bearings.
For those of us old enough to remember real firecrackers, look at like the difference between the way the gunpowder burned when you broke one open and poured it onto something versus the explosion when it was left as-is. One is a burn, the other is an explosion. It's not the best analogy since the as-is firecracker contains the burn which causes the explosion, but the way they burn is very similar to the difference between detonation and normal spark ignition.

[dznucks]

The flame fronts colliding is one part of the noise of knock.
When the spark plug ignites the air/fuel mixture, it BURNS across the top of the piston and throughout the chamber.
When fuel is ignited by pre-ignition/detonation, it EXPLODES rather than burning. This is what hammers bearings.
For those of us old enough to remember real firecrackers, look at like the difference between the way the gunpowder burned when you broke one open and poured it onto something versus the explosion when it was left as-is. One is a burn, the other is an explosion. It's not the best analogy since the as-is firecracker contains the burn which causes the explosion, but the way they burn is very similar to the difference between detonation and normal spark ignition.

To add to your analogy, look at a diesel engine. They combust the diesel fuel with high compression, ie by increasing cylinder temp to ignition temp, not ignitiing it with a spark. They make alot of racket knocking. They also run rougher by combusting this way.

[jjzepplin]

I agree. Lets not bash each other...we all just want to learn from others. Take it easy, we think we "know" something that will help. Maybe we are wrong but we are just trying to help.
I have never burnt a valve and only ever blew up one motor. I have seen a lot of others blow them up and burn valves and I am not sure on each occasion why.
I worked for a small shop that built engines for people that had bunches of money(man that was fun) and built tons of stock and "built" engines.
I have had great success from "PROPER TUNING"!
When you properly tune your vehicle it is only tuned to the gas your running presently and the weight of your vehicle, trans shifting, and gearing.
Change the fuel you are running and there it all goes...
Put a big trailer behind it and it don't run right. HMMM
These things are taken care of today by computers cause it aint easy.
Everyone's vehicle will act different with the same modification.
There are some very smart people in the crowd and I take all the information and bulk it together and use what pertains to my situation.
It's like I am borrowing all their brains-tehe.
By the way thanks guys this has been quite enlightening.

[Super73]

Figured I'd jump in here.. First let me start with this.. This is my new combo which is a 13-1 compression 418 cubic inch LS3 motor. I plan on going between 10.50-10.70 on motor and well in to the 9's with N20 all while running E85.

Farmtruck Running - YouTube

E85 is supposed to be 85% ethenol and 15% gas. However, in colder places during the winter, the blend is less than that. More like E70 (70/30 mix). I have an Ethonal tester to varify the mix ratio and tune for it.

I use a wideband to varify AFR as well as pulling the plugs and reading them. Ethonal has a different Stoich ratio than that of gasoline. Stoich is basically the term used to describe the most efficient air fuel ratio for a fuel. Below is a chart from AEM's web page showing Stoich ratios as well as AFR targets for safe wide open trottle.

When doing the math off of Stoich, you can see why one must add a LOT of fuel to avoid a lean condition.

Gas = 14.7
E10 = 14.0-14.1
E85 = 9.755

Gas (14.7) / E85 (9.765) = 1.5

In other words, you need roughly 2 times the amount of E85 to Gas for the same work (BTU, energy expelled).

Do not confuse Octane for work the fuel can do. Octane is for predetonation only. If more octane meant you could run leaner, than guys racing on 110-116 octane gasoline would be, but you can't, they still require 14.7 stoich and probably mid/high 12's for max load/power.

E85 holds roughly a 105 octane rating, is oxygenated which can help make more power (high compression or boosted applications), but the fuel itself does not have the same amount of energy of gas. It burns colder and slower.

Lots of changes need to come when runing E85 in a non Flex fuel vehicle.
Possible fuel line changes
Bigger fuel pump
Carb jetting and or fuel injecotrs/tune
Plug heat range might need to be addressed (not always hotter to tell you the truth)


Just some food for thought.

[Marv D]

Does anyone in this discussion know the word... stoichiometric ???

Gasoline 14.7:1
Methanol 6.47:1 (what is used in race cars)
Ethanol (denatured to be used as a fuel) 9:1
pure distiled Ethanol... about 10:1 miles per set of handcuffs that is


)edit) hahaha I see super beat me to it.

[GASoline71]

Originally Posted by crazy longhorn

I have run ethenol based fuels, for many yrs....not a bit of problem I run em in the old "hotrod", as well as the DD? crazyL

Yup... me too. Not a problem one. Even in my 2 strokes.

Ethanol will eat up rubber lines quicker, and can attract water in your tank. Other than that... I run the snot out of E10.

Gary

[68gmsee]

It's Greek to me...

[GASoline71]

looks like mud.

Gary

[unclesalty]

my son raced dirt track carts, they ran alcohol fueled rotortiller engines-5hp, I think. One thing that impressed me was how spotlessly clean the engines were when they were torn down.(and that was the only thing that was clean, trust me) I believe an engine designed and run solely for alcohol would last forever if you kept the oil up. 1) I know alcohol does certainly burn cooler than gas. 2) alcohol burns slower than gas, accounting for the better octane rating. 3) acohol is a great natural solvent 4) alcohol is completly on par with gasoline as far as btu content when the comparison is apples to apples: if we compare the correct stoichiometric mixtures for each fuel, then compare the btu values of each, they are nearly identical:
Gas-98.4 btu per cubic foot, @ 15:1 a/f ratio.
Methanol-94.5 btu per cubit foot, @ 6.45:1.
Ethanol-94.7 btu per cubic foot, @ 9-1.
True, a pound of gas may have a few more btus than a pound of alcohol, but-that is a little misleading, if one tries to present only half the story. An area where alcohol gains a little ground on gasoline is a quality somewhat related to volatility, called latent heat of vaporization, a term familar to those of us with a refrigeration background. In a nutshell, when a liquid is at its boiling point, a certain amount of additional heat is needed to change the liqiud to a gas. This additional heat is the latent heat of vaporization and is expressed as Btu/lb. For example;1 btu of heat (about the energy released from the burning of 1 match) is needed to raise 1 pound of water(16 ounces) 1 degree farenheit. At sea level, this continues all the way up till the water reaches 212 degrees F. Then add one more btu and you have steam, right?
Nope. after you reach 212, you need an additional 760 btus of (latent or hidden) heat to raise that pound of water past the point where it changes its state of matter from a liquid to a gas (212 degree steam)
Gasoline has 140 btu/lb.
Methanol 474 btu/lb.
Ethanol 361 btu/lb.
5) Alcohol fuels are extremly clean burning, leaving CO2 and water, with no nasty combustion by products. maybe a little CO, but still much less than a gasoline engine.
One of the reasons the suppliers like to use Ethanol is it allows them to pass off inferior gas. If you add 25% alcohol to 40 octane gasoline, you realize a net gain of nearly 30 points. Alcohol has the ability to raise the octane rating of gas, and the poorer the quality of gas you start with, the greater the effect. The antiknock quality also eliminates the need for additional antiknock additives, such a tetraethyl lead and other polluting agents.
Remember the old hy-test Dad used to order up from the pump jockey? "$2.00 worth of Ethyl, and can ya check the oil?" that ethyl was short for ethanol, wich was added to the gasoline to raise the octane rating. It was the better gas they sold.
Alot of the negativity associated with alcohol as a fuel are rooted in the fact that Detroit designs the engines to optimise gasolines properties, not so much those of alcohol. Alcohol can support a much higher compression engine, reversing the economy and power gap between the two fuels. Gasoline was given precedence because it was cheap back in the day, It was actually a waste by product from the refineries. They used to dump it in the rivers, or burn it off. It was a nuisance. Many of the early tractors sold to the family farmers way back when were set up to burn alcohol. Produced right on the farm. That would give uncle sam fits collecting those federal road taxes, eh?
There are over a hundred differant chemicals that make up gas, none of em good for you. Certainly cant be used for any medicinal purposes at all. If we were playing around with an engine optimized, designed for alcohol, our experience would probly be a TON funner.
In straight up, head to power comparisons, 100% alcohol actually produced 8% more power than gas, testing on the same engine. Alcohol produces a greater mean effective cylinder pressure than gasoline, and will produce the same, or slightly more horsepower- and again this particular test was performed on an auto engine designed and optimised for gasoline.
6) We can produce all we need right here. Are we not paying farmers not to farm?

[Super73]

Just an update, ran my best ET's a couple weeks back with E48 (50% E85 / 50% 91).

Numbers in sig.
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