the ls engine debackle

[jocko]

Hmm. I've got almost 300k mi on my 01 LS. Love it, never been apart, never let me down. Yet I'd never install one in a 67-72 (never say never...). Does that mean it bothers me when someone else does? Of course not. Someone's old truck is their own canvas, paint away. If someone doesn't like your painting, that would be their problem

[garyd1961]

Originally Posted by jocko

Hmm. I've got almost 300k mi on my 01 LS. Love it, never been apart, never let me down. Yet I'd never install one in a 67-72 (never say never...). Does that mean it bothers me when someone else does? Of course not. Someone's old truck is their own canvas, paint away. If someone doesn't like your painting, that would be their problem

Paint? Are we suppose to paint these old trucks? I thought we were supposed to just wash the crud off and drop a motor in them.

[Hatzman]

Originally Posted by garyd1961

Paint? Are we suppose to paint these old trucks? I thought we were supposed to just wash the crud off and drop a motor in them.

If that's the case, I feked up!

[YBNORML]

Originally Posted by garyd1961

Paint? Are we suppose to paint these old trucks? I thought we were supposed to just wash the crud off and drop a motor in them.

We’re not “supposed” to do anything. Build it which ever way puts the biggest smile on your face.

That’s the beauty of these trucks. They can be built so many different ways and in so many different styles.

[Spokanistan]

I’ve had a new production 350 crate in my 67 for about 8 years now and it runs reliably (it’s still got quirks). Maybe it’s just that I’m a millennial or maybe I spent too much time growing up in a place where block heaters were a necessity, but I’m tired of cold starts and waiting in the morning.
That’s why I’m swapping to TBI (Holley Sniper). I’m gonna play with the TBI setup installed on the 350 while I wait for my 408 LS to finish at the shop. I do love the old school style but it’s hard to argue with a casual 500RWHP/FT-LB from a NA engine. I looked at building my 350 into something with comparable power and realized I wouldn’t save a dime if I did it right.

Now anyone can bash on them, but beneath all of that aluminum and circuitry, it’s still the same old pushrod design with better tolerances and computer aided design. Plus, let’s be honest, this is the same kind of hot rodding that every old guy on this forum did when he was young. It’s just the 21st century SBC and all of the kids are swapping them into their cars. I’m not sure why anyone is upset about that, it’s as close to a revival of American hot rod culture as I think you’re ever going to see. If you don’t like them, that’s fine, nobody told you that you had to get one. Cheers.

[57taskforce]

Originally Posted by Spokanistan

I’ve had a new production 350 crate in my 67 for about 8 years now and it runs reliably (it’s still got quirks). Maybe it’s just that I’m a millennial or maybe I spent too much time growing up in a place where block heaters were a necessity, but I’m tired of cold starts and waiting in the morning.
That’s why I’m swapping to TBI (Holley Sniper). I’m gonna play with the TBI setup installed on the 350 while I wait for my 408 LS to finish at the shop. I do love the old school style but it’s hard to argue with a casual 500RWHP/FT-LB from a NA engine. I looked at building my 350 into something with comparable power and realized I wouldn’t save a dime if I did it right.

Now anyone can bash on them, but beneath all of that aluminum and circuitry, it’s still the same old pushrod design with better tolerances and computer aided design. Plus, let’s be honest, this is the same kind of hot rodding that every old guy on this forum did when he was young. It’s just the 21st century SBC and all of the kids are swapping them into their cars. I’m not sure why anyone is upset about that, it’s as close to a revival of American hot rod culture as I think you’re ever going to see. If you don’t like them, that’s fine, nobody told you that you had to get one. Cheers.

I agree! You’ll love that 408. I’ve thought about the stroking the 6.2 in my Camaro to 416 but I think I’m just gonna cam it and slap an LSA supercharger on it and be done... should be 600+ at the wheels when all is said and done.

[special-K]

Originally Posted by YBNORML

We’re not “supposed” to do anything. Build it which ever way puts the biggest smile on your face.

That’s the beauty of these trucks. They can be built so many different ways and in so many different styles.

Where's that like button? Look here people, this is not marriage. You can love more than one engine. In my harem are many. All for different reasons, and I'm just talking GM. If you really know engines and what makes them do what they do, you can appreciate several engines for their individual attributes. Personally, I have a thing for the Pontiac engines and really want what they give in my short bed w/M22. I'd like to sit in my truck behind one of those and drive that engine around. The truck is an era build hot truck vibe. I'm playing on the fact that until some point later in '67, GMC didn't offer a V8. Looking at the GMC-Pontiac being put together at dealerships I see a perfect swap. Afterall, GMC did use Pontiac engines before the V6 and before Chevy. I see no place for an LS in this scenario. I love the engines of the '60s and have for so long. I will continue to love them with no reason to change. I can recognize the value of the LS engines. I think they are great engines. If I need what they offer over the old engines I'll see about one

[BCOWANWHEELS]

What alot of folk dont realize about modded ls engines is if you change them in any way without a reprogram it will throw a code. Once you reprogram it you have to return it to that programmer because he,s the only 1 who knows what he did. Its cost adds up real quickly. Yes i,am building a early style lt1 right now for my 72 c10 low rider

[SCOTI]

I'm good w/either one. They are both great in the big picture. I have big-blocks as well.

The conundrum for me is the 'choice'. I currently have 2 406's sitting in my shop. One is an older rebuild/used motor (older as in original short rod/dish piston motor) & the other is a 5.7 rod flat-top Hypereutectic rebuild. The older used motor has some Dart Iron Eagles that helped the dished pistons scenario + an aftermarket cam (unknown specs). The other rebuild has some AFR's sitting on it & currently a flat-tappet hydraulic Lunati. I have supporting parts for the sbc's as everything I have utilizes pre-LS drivetrains.

It's tough to choose spending $$ for LS swap specific stuff when you have sbc stuff already sitting around. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one w/this dilemma. My current logic is to build what I have on hand & transition toward an LS based set-up on future/planned upgrades.

[57taskforce]

Originally Posted by BCOWANWHEELS

What alot of folk dont realize about modded ls engines is if you change them in any way without a reprogram it will throw a code. Once you reprogram it you have to return it to that programmer because he,s the only 1 who knows what he did. Its cost adds up real quickly. Yes i,am building a early style lt1 right now for my 72 c10 low rider

That’s not entirely true, only major things like deleting cats for headers, tuning for different cams, injectors, forced induction etc. require tuning. As long as the tuner doesn’t lock the tune,(most don’t) any tuner or even your self with the right software, can go in and see what has been changed and update or modify the tune when ever it’s needed. It’s not uncommon for it to take a few data logs to dial a tune in. Also some companies will offer tuning updates for reduced prices or free if the initial tune, and the parts requiring a tune update are purchased from them. It’s a minor price to pay in my opinion for really dialing everything in. It’s a big part of why the ls stuff is a lot more drivable with big cams, stall converters, etc. it’s all in the tune.

[LockDoc]

Originally Posted by BCOWANWHEELS

What alot of folk dont realize about modded ls engines is if you change them in any way without a reprogram it will throw a code. Once you reprogram it you have to return it to that programmer because he,s the only 1 who knows what he did. Its cost adds up real quickly. Yes i,am building a early style lt1 right now for my 72 c10 low rider

That is exactly why I bought the HP Tuners kit and learned how to tune mine myself. I can now change anything I want at any time.

LockDoc

[jjzepplin]

I've got my 406 in my 4x4 and she pulls hard. That motor is built with blah blah blah. But it was fun and still kicks butt. I just could not turn down the LS1 and T56. So here we go. I drove the 4x4 from Cali to Fl with no issues and used to be my DD. Hoping to make the LS1 Blazer my DD. I will tune it myself so I can keep up with the cam change and intake etc. If other people can do it so can I. I always wanted to put AFRs on the 406 and top them with EFI. It's only money I guess. It will light up both 36" Swampers now on demand so I wonder what would happen with AFRs.

[special-K]

You can also can the computer and run a carb on an LS

[BCOWANWHEELS]

Just because you have a carb you still need a computer

[Heavymetl]

The stock ECU and HPTuners has become antiquated with the newer Holley EFI kits.
Much easier tuning, flexibility, wiring, and features for minimal extra expense.

Once again, there's no magic in EFI either. Just good software engineering that controls the physics of engine operation. There's certainly a learning curve, but that curve exists for every aspect of gearhead life. One just has to dive in and get to business!

[BCOWANWHEELS]

Then pay a tuner and dyno time on top

[57taskforce]

Originally Posted by BCOWANWHEELS

Then pay a tuner and dyno time on top

Tuning it myself, already have hp tuners for my Camaro. For that build i don’t plan to Dyno. It’s a 3/4 ton 4x4 not a race car. The numbers I mentioned are just what I think it should run all things considered. I likely will never know for sure.

[wesmigletz]

I’ve been contemplating a LS or LT swap on my 67 SWB for years and have most of what I need to do the swap, including a Tanks inc 69 Camaro EFI tank to install under the bed. The 283/2bbl, 4 spd 3.73, no PS, no AC, 4 wheel manual drum brakes has been great, and I’ve driven it coast to coast and up and down the West coast. Unfortunately, the truck is getting beyond tired. The engine is dripping like the 7th fleet pulling out of Subic Bay, the tranny doesn’t shift like it used too, and the rear diff started making noise.

I’ll be adding disc brakes, a new Lares quick ratio PS box, rebuilding the front suspension and rear end. I have stock Moog springs to go in, and I’ll replace my 10 year old gas magnum shocks with new ones. I’ve been putting off the PS and PDB because I don’t want to change the nature of what the truck is.

As far as engines go, I have a L92 6.2 with a Tick stock stall cam, a completely stock, low-mile L76 truck engine w/ a 6L80E,a complete ZL1 blower assembly, a fresh 385 SBC with a light weight 4340 3 3/4” crank, 6.0 H beam rods, light weight forged pistons, a Bullet HR cam, AFR heads, ported strip dominator with runner extensions, and a Holley sniper EFI. I also have the original 350 from our 70 Blazer... but I can’t convince myself that I want any of them in my “old man’s” truck.

[special-K]

I think we have gotten to the root of this whole debacle. Bob doesn't like the LS engines, doesn't want one, isn't going to use one, is going to run a small block, and just wanted to let everyone know. I can understand that. He's not alone.

So, what do we take away from this extensive discussion on the matter? Two things. One is the fact that the engines discussed are all good engines. And I'll add you won't be disappointed in any of them. The other thing we take from this is you can run any doggone engine you want and don't owe a sole any explanation. And I'll add to that, if anybody doesn't like that they can kiss you where the sun don't shine.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I was much younger and just did my own thing. Long before the internet where opinions get read and spread like wildfire as fact. I had a '71 K/20 307/4spd/4.57 posi. The p.o.s. fiber timing gear wore out and before I could replace it with a double roller set the chain jumped. Like I said, I didn't know any better. I just thought Chevy small blocks from 265-400 were all good motors, since they are all the same design. I never heard people call the 283 a p.o.s., in fact it seemed people loved those little mouses.

This was my work truck and I had a couple little kids to feed. The truck needed fixed yesterday! It had clackity clackin' valvetrain, so first I tried new pushrods. Nope, worse, bent valve or two. Well, you don't just do a top end on a small block at 120k, so I tore it down to overhaul. I was happy with how the motor moved the truck using a little less fuel than a 350, but I can't touch a motor without wanting to add power. So after the machine shop cleaned, inspected, and mic'd, I went about building a little V8 that needed no machining other than hone some fresh crosshatch. I wanted added torque while gaining better fuel consumption. A crower RV cam, a set of 64cc/1.94 exh heads, iron intake, Holley 450cfm spread bore, HEI w/lighter springs & heavy weights, dbl roller, Melling hi-volume oil pump, and headers. It was a peppy little thing that was a ball to drive, especially off road 4wd. It hauled the utility body/pipe rack, tool toting, material and scaffold/ladder hauling 37/14.50 rollin' beast down the hiway at 15 mpg or more like 13 most times due to mixed driving, including mud slinging across building lots to where we'd set up to hang siding. I felt I built the ultimate siding man's rig. We called it The Big Bad Green Siding Machine and guys all around knew that truck as awesome. I got asked all the time "What's in it?", and then "Hmmm" after they heard "307". I'm sure glad I never heard it's a waste of time rebuilding a 307 because I have nothing but great memories and no regrets when I think about it.


When in my planning stage, at the machine shop, I ran my plan by the one owner, Dave Coleman of Coleman Bros Speed Shop. He liked, confirmed my thoughts, and approved. He wanted to dyno it but I hit the ground running once back together. I had siding to hang!

[LockDoc]

Originally Posted by special-K

I think we have gotten to the root of this whole debacle. Bob doesn't like the LS engines, doesn't want one, isn't going to use one, is going to run a small block, and just wanted to let everyone know. I can understand that. He's not alone.

I agree and I think at this point he is just trolling so I am going to close the thread. It has pretty much run it's course. If anyone sees a reason to re-open it PM me and let me know.

Thanks,
LockDoc