The "In over my head" build thread

[Liddy71]

that sucks $3k gone

[Burt4x4]

Get a 454 and
Sucks you got ripped...pleanty of local builders were you live...never had a crate engine before. I almost went with that 383HT but I ended up getting a '74 454 "running when pulled" out of a 2x4 truck and spent the same amount of money getting that rebuilt, balanced and added Edelbrock MPFI. Throttle reponce is amazing and all that torque right off idle is alot of fun too
Good Luck

[SeventyOne]

Originally Posted by Burt4x4

Get a 454 and
Sucks you got ripped...pleanty of local builders were you live...never had a crate engine before. I almost went with that 383HT but I ended up getting a '74 454 "running when pulled" out of a 2x4 truck and spent the same amount of money getting that rebuilt, balanced and added Edelbrock MPFI. Throttle reponce is amazing and all that torque right off idle is alot of fun too
Good Luck

Can you point me in the direction of some local builders? This is my first resto and my contact list is quite small - could use a referral.

I thought of going 454 but didn't want to deal with the firewall issues.

[Burt4x4]

I wish I could, I live in Modesto and work in Pleasanton. THe guy that built my 454 (long block) a few years back had worked at the same machine shop for over 15yrs. in Fremont but that shop has sence closed...victom of the resession I guess.
My firends down in Morgan Hill do LSx installs www.pacificfab.net and all kinds of custom fab work but they are not an engine rebuild shop persay.

[SeventyOne]

Ok well...until someone can tell me who builds engines around here I am set with a GMPP crate (which I don't think is necessarily a bad thing). I've tried google searching and all sorts of crap but can't seem to come up with any results for local engine builders.

[SeventyOne]

Ok guys I need some help on this one...

I'm getting the Dana 44 back together after taking it apart and am also swapping it over to 8 lug. I've got all the parts but when I got the new 8 lug rotors it seemed to me that the wheel studs were too short.

I am running new aluminum wheels that are about 1/4" thick at the mounting flange and I wanted to make sure I had enough thread engagement for the lug nuts.





That said I pressed out the studs that came with the hub/rotor and pressed in stock 14bolt SRW studs which are about 1/2-3/4" longer.



After getting the longer studs pressed in, the hub and rotor have some play between them when I grab the hub and twist.



Here are the options as I see it - please comment and let me know what you think

1) Leave it with the play - I just put this here for you all to tell me it's NOT an option, seems like a good way to break the wheel studs or other parts.

2) Tack weld the top of the rotor hat to the bottom edge of the hub a few times around it's circumference. I think this might be ok but could be bad if the tacks break and I am then back where I am in option 1.

3) Go back to the shorter studs. They will be just fine and I am over thinking things - just make sure they stay tight and torqued often.

I tried looking for other examples where the studs were too short and longer ones were needed for thicker wheels but didn't find any - I would guess plenty of people have run newer wheels on an 8 lug front without trouble. I am leaning towards option three - what do you guys think?

[jaros44sr]

Are both units rocking or just the one side, maybe dirt between the two parts, seems strange that jsut changing studs would cause a problem. Are all surfaces flat?

[SeventyOne]

the hub wants to rotate inside the rotor a little bit I'm think because the studs are not as wide at the knurls than the stock ones (probably tenths or hundredths of an inch smaller).

Parts are clean (no dirt) and are brand new. I bought the hub and rotor already pressed together with the shorter studs. all surfaces should be to spec.

[Burt4x4]

I think..ouch..that it is simply not seated fully. I see you have washer and lugs. Is it possiable the lugnuts are bottoming out right at the same time it hits the washer...so it's not as tight as it can bee? Use more washers to ensure the lug is not bottoming out and yer getting fully seated...
Maybe even install one side, mount the tire and see if it rocks in and out at all..if it doesn't rock I say run it.

[jaros44sr]

after you get your problem solved, can you post up some info on what parts have to be changed to convert to 8 lug

what burt said makes sense, but are the diameters of your long and short studs differant? like you said tenths, seems to be the problem

[SeventyOne]

They look REALLY close to being fully seated from the rear - just hard to tell. I can more washers on there and hit them with the impact to see if that seats the studs more.

Let me get some manufacturer specs of the studs I am using vs the stockers.

Info from Napa Online
Stock ones that came with the hub/rotor: 2 1/8" length, .625 knurl diameter

Stock 14 bolt rear SRW studs: I am finding conflicting info. The stud I am measuring that I personally pressed out of the 14 bolt hub measures 3 1/4" long - the two SRW studs I find on Napa are either 2 3/4" or 3" in length (If i measure the stud in hand not counting the base it is 3"...). The knurl sizes of these two studs in Napa's database is .620 and .622. So they are .003-.005 of difference. Is this 3 to 5 thousands of an inch the "rocking" I am feeling when I twist on the hub?

On a side note when I re-assembled the 14 bolt I used DRW studs (swapped to disc) that were 3.5" in length so I know I don't have a dually stud making for the discrepancy.

What do you guys think of using the stock studs? Does anyone know of any issue with the thicker wheels (see option 3)?

[-Greg72]

Originally Posted by SeventyOne

Can you point me in the direction of some local builders? This is my first resto and my contact list is quite small - could use a referral.

I thought of going 454 but didn't want to deal with the firewall issues.

I can introduce you to a good engine builder in your area. The same guy that built Burt4x4s motor has built a total of 3 BBC motors for me as well. He lives in Fremont CA, and he still builds motors for people. His name is Scott Smith and I can get you his contact info if you're interested in meeting him in person to talk more about engine options.

Speaking of which, one of the motors he built for me is a 496 stroker converted to a full-roller cam setup. It's sitting in my garage still wrapped in plastic from when he built it. It was supposed to go into my '72 Burb but the truck got sold, so now it's homeless. It's a real torque beastie....puts out 620Lb/Ft at around 2500RPM!!!


-G

[SeventyOne]

Greg72 - Sure I'd love his info - does he do small blocks (383)? Still not ready to make that BB jump although I'm sure down the road that day will come

[SeventyOne]

Ok - I bought some new wheel studs to try - they have the same shape as the stock studs I pressed out of the hub and are a little longer (not as long as the 14 bolt studs but enough to ease my mind about thread engagement). I think the shape may have a lot to do with the fitment - if you see the pic above the stock ones have a little "bump" right before the head that the 14 bolt studs to not. Also, they are listed as having a .625 knurl on Dorman's database which also match the stock studs.

I'll get out into the garage after lunch and try them out. Wish me luck!

[SeventyOne]

Well I think I have a solution.

The new wheel studs seemed to fit the bill - correct .625 knurl diameter, longer than stock, 9/16-18 threads - but I ran into the same issue as the 14 bolt studs: the rotational rocking or slack between the hub and rotor.

Here's a shot of all three for comparison:


For Sh's and giggles, with 4 of the new studs in, and 4 of the 14 bolt studs in the hub I pressed out 1 of the 14 bolt studs and pressed a stocker in its place. The slack lessened. Using my brain for good rather than evil I tried a second stock stud on the opposite side of the rotor in place of another 14 bolt stud....moment of truth....rocking/slack gone!

I did a little more research on other wheel studs and was thinking of trying a .627 knurl stud for all 8 but it wasn't in stock at Napa. But not knowing if it solves my issue I think the way the hub sits might be ok.

I think I will just run 2 of the stock studs to alleviate the slack issue, and 6 of the longer "new" studs to ease my mind over the thread engagement of the lug nuts. I know it's weird but honestly who would know (aside from all you fine folks reading this) and more importantly I think it is safer than either alternative (slack or minimal thread engagement).

So I will order up some more of the new wheel studs, finish these things up and move on. Good new from all this crap? My biceps are huge now from lifting the heavy hub and rotor assembly a billion times

[cleszkie]

Those aluminum mags don't work with the acorn style lug nuts. The studs are not supposed to extend out past the rim surface. You need to get yourself "Mag" style lug nuts. These are sold at many parts stores (Pep Boys has them). These lug nuts have a deep shoulder which is threaded inside that goes down between the stud and rim. Don't drive with the acorn style nuts, you will break studs and probably will no be able to center your wheels in the hubs.

[2fast55]

Originally Posted by cleszkie

Those aluminum mags don't work with the acorn style lug nuts. The studs are not supposed to extend out past the rim surface. You need to get yourself "Mag" style lug nuts. These are sold at many parts stores (Pep Boys has them). These lug nuts have a deep shoulder which is threaded inside that goes down between the stud and rim. Don't drive with the acorn style nuts, you will break studs and probably will no be able to center your wheels in the hubs.

Most aluminum wheels currently on the market DO use tapered seat (acorn style) lug nuts. Mag style lug nuts with the long shank are only necessary for a small number of wheels, mostly discontinued styles. Some, such as the Cragar S/S still use them, but the KMC Addict is designed for a tapered seat lug nut.

[SeventyOne]

My wheels definitely work with the acorn style lugs - you can sort of see the conical angle on the wheels in the pics above.

I should be picking up the rest of the wheel studs tomorrow and hope to have the front axle reassembled by this weekend. Pics to come.

[mcmlxix]

Do you have part numbers for the front 8 lug conversion?
Did you get the parts from NAPA?

[SeventyOne]

Originally Posted by mcmlxix

Do you have part numbers for the front 8 lug conversion?
Did you get the parts from NAPA?

Funny you should ask because I JUST finished assembling the front axle.

Update 11/21. Moving Along...



Man this picture makes the axle look SUPER wide!


Here is what you will need to convert over to 8 lug:

All this can be found on a '77 Chevy 4x4 3/4 Ton (K20) - I went to Napa, Autozone, Kragen, used online vendors, and ebay/craigslist to find all these parts.

• "Big Bearing" Spindles
• Spindle bearing kit (contains spindle bearing, and the 3 seal parts to seal it to the stub shaft)*
• 3/4 ton Brake Caliper Brackets
• Calipers for a '77 4x4 Chevy 3/4 Ton (K20) - I think these are the same as the stock calipers
• 4x4 Hub and Rotor Assembly from a '77 3/4 Ton Chevy (K20)
• Wheel Bearings for a '77 Chevy 3/4 Ton (K20)
• Hub Lockouts (Original, Warns, etc - all fit just like on the 6-lug)
• Spindle nuts/washer from original "Small Bearing" Spindles fit
• Wheel/Hub Seals**
• A tub of wheel bearing grease

*See http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...=335976&page=2 for pics and torque specs.
**When I bought the wheel bearings they came with wheel/Hub seals. Turns out they didn't fit because apparently there were two different styles of hub and hub seal in '77 (early and late design). If you search Napa's website for "Wheel Seal" for '77 K20 there will be two that come up - I needed the one without the flange.

[Critter]

Originally Posted by SeventyOne

• "Big Bearing" Spindles
• Spindle bearing kit (contains spindle bearing, and the 3 seal parts to seal it to the stub shaft)*
• 3/4 ton Brake Caliper Brackets
• Calipers for a '77 4x4 Chevy 3/4 Ton (K20) - I think these are the same as the stock calipers
  
• 4x4 Hub and Rotor Assembly from a '77 3/4 Ton Chevy (K20)
• Wheel Bearings for a '77 Chevy 3/4 Ton (K20)
• Hub Lockouts (Original, Warns, etc - all fit just like on the 6-lug)
• Spindle nuts/washer from original "Small Bearing" Spindles fit
• Wheel/Hub Seals**
• A tub of wheel bearing grease

So did you get NEW hubs? I can't find them listed anywhere in the parts store webpages.

[SeventyOne]

Originally Posted by Critter

So did you get NEW hubs? I can't find them listed anywhere in the parts store webpages.

Yes new hubs and rotors. I bought mine from Kragen but I just went and pulled the Napa part numbers for you from the store site:

'77 K20
Rotor only = NB4885677
Hub only = NB4886287
Hub and Rotor assembly = NB4886286

Mine came with the bearing races installed also.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Critter]

Ahh...I see now. I had been searching the websites for a 1973 - Chevy - k20 - "hub" (small bearing) and nothing came up other than bearings and seals. I also searched 1976 randomly just because I have the 76 GMC that's in my signature (also small bearing). If I would have just tried a search for my 78 I would have seen it. Apparently a big bearing is avaialbe but small isn't. I guess I will have to change my spindles as well if I go the new parts route. Thanks for straightening me out.

[SeventyOne]

From what I remember there is a way to run 8 lug on the smaller spindles if you buy different bearings. I don't know the specifics though. I went with the big bearing spindles because they are stronger.

Also, if it matters, I *think* '76 had a changeover partway through the year to the big bearing stuff.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Critter]

Originally Posted by SeventyOne

From what I remember there is a way to run 8 lug on the smaller spindles if you buy different bearings. I don't know the specifics though. I went with the big bearing spindles because they are stronger.

Also, if it matters, I *think* '76 had a changeover partway through the year to the big bearing stuff.
Posted via Mobile Device

I'm at the beginning of my research on this subject, but I believe I read somewhere that the small bearing 8 lug setup uses the same spindles as the older 6 lug would. Thats why I was searching for the older/smaller bearing 8 lug hubs hoping I could just put the hub straight on to my original 6 lug spindle...but maybe that's incorrect info.

I was actually aware (surprisingly) of the mid 76 change. I had to get some tie rods or ball joints or something years ago for the GMC and I remember it being a question. Turns out mine is an early version. Thanks again for all your help!