Starter...again...still..

[eightbanger]

I would go the high torque mini starter route, others may disagree.
I would add that your prob doe's sound like it's to do with the meshing of the starter gear and the teeth on the flex plate and that it needs shimming, gear mesh can be measured using a paper clip, open one up and if you can pull the small gear on the starter out by hand till it engages or meshes with the teeth on the flexplate then see if you can pass the paper clip between them both, (that's the valley between two teeth on the FP and the high point of a tooth on the starter gear. If not, it's to close, and if you could pass something more akin to a BBQ skewer or 1/8 drill bit between them then it's to far apart.

To close


To far apart


This pic shows the correct distance while in resting position. Set too far back from or to close to the FP and it won't engage correctly.



Pics of my old starter & FP show the kind of damage that can occur when they don't engage properly





Hope all this is of some use to you.

[GMCjunkie]

ok, I got the starterout, the teeth in the housing were gnarled. No cracks in the bolt holes. When I went to Napa to get another starter, the guy asked why I had a "jump wire" that went from one of the small terminals to the other. I had no Idea. He said it souldnt be there, there should be 2 wires, The big red starter wire and a smaller one that hooks to the smaller terminal marked "s". I cannot find a smaller wire anywhere that would go to my starter. I have one of thoes ford relay switches, does that eliminate the need for the smaller wire? but, dosent something have to attach to the solenoid? He thinks that this little "jump wire" was keeping the starter engaged with the fly wheel therefore binding it up. Ok, now what?

[john]

Jodie there are several way to wire the ford solenoid. Here is how mine has been wired for 12 yrs no probs. There is a solid jumper link instead of using a wire as in the diagram. I cant see where a wire between the two small terminals would work the solenoid as yours was wired.

[dirtyd_nd]

I haven't read the entire thing so if this has been brought up I apologize. I was having similar problems and it was the bolts were to small for the holes causing the starter to shift after a few starts. I tried to find the correct size bolts at all the parts store here in town and finally had to go to a dealership. They were only $2 each. I haven't had a problem since. Oh, and the bolts where only about 1-2mm off from each other and both were starter bolts. Hope yours ends up as simple as mine.

Dale

[eightbanger]

Dam! why did electrics have to come into it...can't help with this one, I understand electrics like I understand Knitting.

[GMCjunkie]

So the short little "jump wire" as the guy called it is SUPPOSED to be there? Theres only the big red wire that runs to the starter?

[truckdude239]

yes sounds like it

[GMCjunkie]

What kind of wire and connector is it? It it something that Ineed to buy or can I make one? Sorry for all the lame questions, this thing has me completely frazzled and Im trying to do it right. Essentially, Ill not have really changed anything, except for installing a new starter. Im already having night mares about it doing the same thing as the last one.

[crazy longhorn]

The jump wire is NOT your problem, you need that jump wire to work with the ford soleniod. If you ask me how I know this, I will tell you square...my oldest "brat" was driving a sb CHEV powered ford ranger in highschool, That I built If that system is wired properly, it requires the jump wire to work that Ford soleniod, to engage that starter.

[faribran]

Jodie, did you read what Dale said above? you might verify that the bolts holding your starter are actually STARTER BOLTS.. this was a good tip....
remember when you solve the grinding problem, and you will, please get the rear brace and bolt it on... this will help prevent future damage and grinding...

[CCCC]

There is some really good advice and insight above. I still can't tell what you mean by "grinding" (probably my fault), but have to assume that it is a mesh issue involving something in the gear drive or shaft, maybe the solenoid misfiring - just seems like something internal to the starter or a problem with the housing itself - like the nose.

Before you start chasing starters to find "one" that works, or spend a lot of $$ on a dealer item, try making your way through the stuff provided by passthebuck and wrenchbender and others above who are talking diagnosis and the nature of the nose, etc. I would almost bet that the cure is there.

Over more than 50 years of fooling with Chev/GMC engines I NEVER have used a shim in mounting a starter. And, do not remember anything other than a cast iron nose on any of them.

[biggestjohn]

Why are you using a Ford relay? I thought you only used those with a Mini-starter. If your using a standard Chevy starter, I'd get rid of the relay, connect the battery wire to the solenoid, connect the wire from the s terminal on the relay to the s terminal on the solenoid. Get rid of the jumper wire.
BTW: Chevy starters ground thru the mounting face on the engine block, make sure its clean with no paint on it.

I was looking at a Tuff Stuff mini-starter a little earlier, thier instructions don't show that jumper between the s terminal and the battery wire.

http://www.tuffstuffperformance.com/...2_Starters.pdf

[VetteVet]

Here is another version of the ford solenoid wiring. It shows the small jumper wire on the starter. It does not jump between the smaller posts but instead it jumps between the large post where the battery cable goes and the S terminal on the solenoid.

A poor connection or a bad jumper wire would make the solenoid try to engage the flywheel but might not let it fully engage, resulting in the grinding sound you are hearing.

[GMCjunkie]

The relay thingie was put on there years ago, Ive never had an issue with it. Ok, next step, I have my new starter ready to install, but, Im going to wait until tomorrow so I can go get original bolts and the bracket. Thanks everyone! All your help is so much appreciated!!!

[faribran]

any updates? did you solve this problem????

[GMCjunkie]

funny you should ask, I have a new starter, new GM starter bolts AND the bracket ready to install. My question is, is there any certain size wire or connectors that I need to use for that jump wire?

[GMCjunkie]

anyone? I dont want to put the wrong size wire on there and blow the whole thing over something that small. I dont want to ask the "experts" down at Advance, I just dont have the strength or patience for them today.

[VetteVet]

12 gauge is plenty. That's what GM used for the purple wire all the way from the key to the solenoid. Don't use anything smaller. I guess you could use 10 gauge but you don't need to.

[GMCjunkie]

Thank you!!! Thank you!!

[81ShrtBox]

Buddy of mine had a 83 Monte Carlo that WAS pretty stout. Had a nice Lil 355 with Edelbrock head,intake,cam package...rebuild tranny and all. He took it to Speedy Painting Omaha Monday, they told him it would be ready Friday. The he was told they needed to keep it till Monday. When he got the car back it wouldn't get out of its own way. Parked it and had oil leaks everywhere. Popped the hood, the airbreather wasn't on. It was in the trunk. Transmission linkage was off, and there was bolts and stuff missing, wrong color bolts etc.... they claimed that how it was when he took it there. I hope they dint get you at the shop
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[GMCjunkie]

It didnt work. First I couldnt install the bracket because the bolt that I need to bolt it to the engine block does not exist. 1/4 is too small, next one up, too big. so I go ahead and install the new starter with new bolts etc. go to fire it tup, It acts like the batterys dead. I go and tighten the terminals, notice this wire....never noticed it before, have no clue where it goes. Went back to try to start it, acted like it was gonna fire up, STARTER GRINDS. Ive never had so much trouble with this truck in the 10 years Ive had it. Excuse me while I just walk away for a bit.....

[whitesswj]

Yea, you'll need that wire. That's the fire to the fuse block and everything else...
I understand your frustrations - mine is now blowing the tail / stop fuse and I can't figure it out...
If it's not one thing its another...

[GMCjunkie]

where does it go?? On my battery terminal? neg or pos?

[463]

Originally Posted by GMCjunkie

where does it go?? On my battery terminal? neg or pos?

POS + post

[Zeke's Garage]

Where does that wire trace to? If it's the main harness feed wire, it usually comes from a small single post junction box on the inside of the passenger fenderwell, the one you show seems to be coming from the middle of the engine bay which would look more like an alternator feed wire. Maybe it's just the angle of the pic.

As for the grinding, eightbanger suggested you check the mesh of the pinion gear on the starter with the flex plate to see if there was proper alignment. Were you able to look at that?

Good luck.

Shawn