Ford Solenoid Mod Question

[jrcaprai]

I thought I'd show what happens... through math... it might make it easier to see

this is an example only to illustrate the point...

Say you have 12 Volts, and your Solenoid has a normal "COLD" resistance of .25 Ohms
Ohms law = 12 volts divided by .25 = 48 Amps...

You've got a solid 48 Amps to turn it over When cold...

Now the Solenoid gets hot... say the resistance of the Solenoid goes up to 1 Ohm of Resistance...

Ohms Law again... .12V divided by 1 = 12 Amps

The Current has gone down by a factor of 4....

Now you only have 12 Amps at the Solenoid.... see why you have problems ?????

[crm318]

I just completed this conversion (I live near by Veinbar and he is also my best friend). All I can say is holy cow, does this thing start like gang busters. The temp gauge will be at 220 (after sitting for 2 min off after a long drive in 106 degree weather) and the engine will start after 30 degrees of rotation (instantly). I will tell you, as someone who has suffered from embarrassing "heat soaked" failed starts, this conversion works.

[veinbar]

Originally Posted by crm318

I just completed this conversion (I live near by Veinbar and he is also my best friend). All I can say is holy cow, does this thing start like gang busters. The temp gauge will be at 220 (after sitting for 2 min off after a long drive in 106 degree weather) and the engine will start after 30 degrees of rotation (instantly). I will tell you, as someone who has suffered from embarrassing "heat soaked" failed starts, this conversion works.

Word... Now if only I were able to find that A/C Delco Solenoid... Having this ford solenoid under my hood makes me feel dirty.

[thun]

I'm about to do this also. How to do you route the 1 wire that goes from the ford solenoid to the starter? The original route under the engine backup by the alternator and off the ford solenoid? Or like in the pics it looks like you guys just ran the wire right by the headers.. Lookin for any suggestions.

[1LowToy]

Originally Posted by veinbar

Word... Now if only I were able to find that A/C Delco Solenoid... Having this ford solenoid under my hood makes me feel dirty.

Come on now I know you haven't told you mom about all your secrets

[K5Danny]

Thanks for this thread guys!! I bought a new starter mounted solenoid for my 72 K5 last night, and after reading this, I'm going to add the second solenoid very soon. I've never dealt with a starter/solenoid before, and I have to say that it was an absolute pain in the rear to get a tool into the tight area to loosen the wire connections. I finally dropped the starter and it was a lot easier. I just bought the Blazer a couple months ago, and it had at least 20 years of dirt, mud, and oil caked on the bottom which mostly ended up falling in my face. I plan to install the new one tonight.

So which is the best way to wire this set up? I was sort of confused after reading the entire thread.

Thanks in advance!

[veinbar]

Originally Posted by K5Danny

So which is the best way to wire this set up? I was sort of confused after reading the entire thread.

Thanks in advance!

I followed the 2nd diagram of the very 1st post. That seems to be the most accepted by everyone on this forum. It's simple and it works. I was actually stupid enough to mess this up, of course. I put the smaller wire on the "I" instead of the "S". Took me a day to figure this out. You'll do it within and hour, and love the results.

[K5Danny]

Thanks! While removing the solenoid from my starter last night, I noticed the wire on the small terminal labeled "R" had broken loose. I still have a points type ignition system on my K5, so from what I've read, that was the purpose of that wire. Where exactly does that wire lead to and what problems could it have been causing by coming loose?

[VegasBruce]

That wire bypasses the resistor going to the points during start up.

[Axle]

So which is the best way to wire this set up? I was sort of confused after reading the entire thread.

'My way' of course.

Just use whichever method you are most comfortable with. The end result is the same.

Alex.

[1LowToy]

Lets try bthis one last time

Lets call the it a ford relay (Like as to relay power from the source to another location).

We want to take battery power to the S wire on the chevy solinoid because that is the wire that not getting enough juice.

So the left side of the Ford relay needs battery power. Take it directly from the battery or the chevy starter battery post with a 10 gauge wire. Do not move the battery cable away from the starter.

From the Ford solinoid right post with a 10 gauge wire take that to the chevy solinoid S wire connection.

Now to make the relay react when you turn your key take the chevy wire that was going to your chevy solinoid S connection to the Ford Relay S connection. Usually a purple 16 gauge wire.

So now you will have just what you need and nothing more.

[K5Danny]

I got my solenoid reinstalled last night. I'm planning to add the second solenoid soon. After I finished up, I tried to crank up the engine and the starter worked fine, just couldn't get the motor to fire up. I'm hoping the small wire that's supposedly for bypassing the resistor is in the right spot and not causing a crank up issue. I attached it to the "R" post as discussed. My checklist for tomorrow consists of checking the fuel filter, possibly replacing the points/condensor, spark plugs if the problem continues. I've got to work on the Q'jet's choke too. The PO has it wire-tied in the open position.

[fixit-p]

Originally Posted by veinbar

[*]After driving, if I attempt to restart the starter clicks. that's all it does.[*]Sometimes if I'm lucky it clicks and drags (turns slowly)[*]in my impatience I have turned the key a couple of times, and 2-3 attempts will completely drain my battery and I will need a jump. The engine has to cool first before I can accept a jump.
I will say that in the few days I have had the Remote Solenoid, I have had none of the starting issues as stated above. I have sat in traffic, run errands w/ frequent restarts, etc and it is working better than it ever has in the year and a half I've had it.

Originally Posted by veinbar

Fortunately this conversion has (for the moment) cured my starting issues. The results are not a placebo effect, I am starting my car in the same conditions that consistantly gave me troubles before.

Riddle me this riddle me that, Did the remote solenoid fix your problem or was it indeed the placebo effect?

The short answer, No and No.

The long answer, What fixed the problem is the fact that you also changed your battery cables, thus fixing the real problem (a poor connection or cable) causing excess voltage drop preventing the starter from turning.

Let me explain, First this is such a heated topic because there is not a clear understanding of what the remote solenoid will cure or not cure (not all but generally speaking, in this thread it has been stated what the solenoid will address but it hasn't been understood or accepted).


veinbar states,

Originally Posted by veinbar

[*]After driving, if I attempt to restart the starter clicks. that's all it does.[*]Sometimes if I'm lucky it clicks and drags (turns slowly)

The remote solenoid will not address this problem and this where the opponents are correct in stating that the "remote solenoid doesn't do anything to assist the factory solenoid because the motor circuit (contacts) are internal to the OEM solenoid". The fact that the solenoid clicks and attempts to turn shows that the control circuit is working and the solenoid is engaged (a remote solenoid cant make it engage anymore) so the problem is in the motor circuit (contacts, cables, connections or battery). The easiest way to troubleshoot the motor circuit is with a voltage drop test, you can even see how much voltage the starter drops to see if it is within spec.

Now what the remote solenoid does address, is if you were to turn the key and get nothing no click at all and every thing checks out (ignition sw, nss and power to the "S" terminal). The remote relay would help because what the remote relay does and all it does is provide more current to the "S" terminal that the factory purple wire through the complete circuit can't because heat increases resistance and limits current flow. I can not understand why that fact is not accepted.

I'll compare it to the popular headlight relay mod where I have never see a heated discussion over, partly because the results are so visible. So why not accept the remote solenoid mod. Both mods do the exact same thing, they both address voltage drop in long poorly designed circuits (I use the term loosely because not all vehicles are affected but the fact that a good number are, shows the circuit to be marginal over time).

Below is a video of a voltage drop test on the starter circuit, notice that the solenoid clicks and the real problem was a poor connection, which when the OP did the remote solenoid mod was fixed as a byproduct of doing the mod.

Starter Circuit Voltage Drop - YouTube

[dirtyjim]

Posted via Mobile Device

[eightbanger]

I've just been given a heads up to this thread.

Here's the thread I started on the issues I'm having re "Heat Soak"

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...=1#post6273194

[SonomaComa]

I've got a question about the 2nd picture at the to of this page, the one listed "This illustration shows one way:" What do you do with the wires listed as "Other wires originally attached to BAT terminal on starter" and "Small wire originally connected to "s" terminal on factory solenoid." Do they just get cut off?

[SkinnyG]

The power from your key is the "S" wire. You will run it to the small terminal on the Ford starter solenoid.

The large terminal on the left of the solenoid is connected directly to the battery "+" , so anything that was originally powered off of the + connection at the starter needs to be connected at the solenoid now, since the starter will only receive electricity when the solenoid is engaged.

I initially wired mine up like #1, but after having a starter stick "on" (even with my keys off and sitting in my hand), I wired it like #2 - then when I cut the key, there is ~nothing~ at the starter.

[hatzie]

Originally Posted by SonomaComa

I've got a question about the 2nd picture at the to of this page, the one listed "This illustration shows one way:" What do you do with the wires listed as "Other wires originally attached to BAT terminal on starter" and "Small wire originally connected to "s" terminal on factory solenoid." Do they just get cut off?

You move them to the External Starter Solenoid. I made up new wires that were the correct length for the new starter solenoid.
"Other wires originally attached to BAT terminal on starter" are marked Fusible links in the below drawing. They are originally hooked to the BAT terminal on the starter using the large 3/8" ring terminal on the end.
"s" terminal on factory solenoid." is a purple wire with a small #8 ring terminal on the end. Move it to the S terminal on the "Ford" starter solenoid.

NOTES:
I'm happy to have the wiring away from the exhaust manifold.
The yellow wire on the R terminal, with a #10 ring on the end, is only used on the 1973-1975 trucks without HEI. My 1976 6.5L diesel install doesn't have the yellow wire either.
I don't see a fusible link in any of the illustrations. They are needed.
The "Ignition Switch" detail below is only the spring loaded START position.
A short jumper wire needs to connect the 3/8" BAT terminal and the #8 S terminal on the original starter.

This is what you should have. Clicking on the picture will open a zoomable and printable PDF.

[jjmorrse]

Please excuse me for feeling the need to chime in, but in some instances it is good to keep in mind that although the GM engineers were sharp, and the DIYers sometimes seem to shoot themselves in the foot by changing things (sometimes such as removing the fuel return as an example), on vehicles with headers especially, a stock setup might become problematic even when it is working. If the original poster complains of heat soak, the most helpful answers might often be from those living in the same climate. A perfectly fine stock starting loop might work great at 85 degrees, but when stuck in traffic on blacktop when the air temperature is 105 or more, there may be a problem.

[tucsonjwt]

Just a note on heat soak from a guy who has tried everything to fix it. This is a list of the most effective things I have found to stop the heat soak, in order of effectiveness:

1) Hitachi high torque mini starter.
2) Remote solenoid
3) Insulating wrap on Hitachi starter.
4) Dual start batteries.

If I started the effort all over again from scratch, I would just install a Hitachi starter (about $120), with an insulating wrap (about another $20). Then I would add the remote starter, then dual start batteries.

I have a 454 and the desert heat guarantees no start when the engine is hot.

Having a brand new 100% charged single start battery is good for overcoming heat soak, but batteries rarely remain charged at 100% for very long. They start losing charge capacity not long after being installed. Most of us don't drive our trucks long enough with a peak operating charging system to keep a 100% charge.

I am currently running just one battery and have no heat soak problems. My only problem is intermittent starter grinding which may be caused by starter mounting bolts which are too long (see other post on this topic.)

[hatzie]

My 76 came from your area. I bought it from an outfit near 35th and W Broadway in Phoenix. I've seen the same type of thermal damage to that section of wiring on trucks that spent their life in the Northeast. The battery cable, running along the oil pan, seems to survive a bit better.

My main reason for using a starter relay, that's what this is, was to re-route the smaller gauge wiring. It was a bit crispy from 40 years close to the exhaust manifold. It could do with a cooler location. It probably won't help much for starter heat soak tho.

Diesels already have dual batteries but it's not a bad idea for gas engines.

My 6.5L came from a 1998 Van so it's got the smaller OEM high torque starter. I can't say I'd replace the starter on the M1008 with one if I couldn't get a GM unit. Mostly because of the Asian parts that are poisoning the market. The OEM LT1 & Vortec starters are a bit more plentiful than the late 90's 6.5L units.

The most bang for the buck is probably a heat shield. Kao-wool, Thermo-Tec 2K Aluminized or something similar fastened to a formed aluminum heat shield under the manifold or headers... might be better than a wrap because the starter can breathe when the truck is parked

[bmchevy1979]

On my k5 I run the factory heat shield from an 87 I had then I did the Ford solenoid to eliminate the wiring going next to my headers haven't had any issues and it did help the heatsink issue slightly but that wasn't why I did the mod it doesn't make the starter any stronger which my new motor will need so I will be doing the late model starter swap within the next year

[tucsonjwt]

Ambient temperature does make a difference, but it is not the only thing.

Consider this:

I came to AZ from MI in March of 1982. I left in a sub zero ice storm and it was very cold until I got to AZ. I had a 1973 C20 454/TH400 which was pulling about 6500 lbs. of trailer. The truck had one 20 gallon tank. I had to stop about every 125 miles and fill up the tank.

Whenever I pulled off the expressway to fill up the truck would not start after the 10-15 minutes it took to fill the tank - just "click" and no start. The truck had an isolator and second RV battery. After getting jump starts from fellow motorists a few times I eventually decided to use my jumper cables from the RV battery to the primary start battery and the truck started every time. The ambient temperature was below freezing, but the extra current provided by the RV battery was enough to start the truck. Both the primary and RV batteries were brand new and the charging system was fine.

Even in cold temperatures, a BB pulling a heavy load gets very hot, and it does not cool off very quickly. I owned that 73 for 18 years and it always had a heat soak problem in AZ, no matter what the temperature was. I had a mechanic wire the truck to bypass the RV battery isolator with a push button switch on the dash when starting, giving me two start batteries when the button was pushed - so that overcame the heat soak on the 73. I had an early version of a "high torque" starter in that truck but it was not a "mini starter", so it still soaked up a lot of heat.